Arts Beats and Eats

[army74]

Drinkwine is an idiot. I heard him reference to the Pontiac city council visit and how these are probally the same guys.He did say PCC was frustrated we came with our firearms on and how they couldnt do anything but they still havent changed the ordinance or done anything with it. I will be home in time for the next royal oak city council meeting but im only carrying a sccy 9mm small with a iwb holster but very noticable. Can we check to see if his firearms arent stolen or there not legally registerd. I will be attending the AB&E .

 

[NHCGRPR45]

first what is a "tracing/printing violation?" the is no law or anything else on MI law about "printing" in MI. you are either concealed or you are not. theres no printing law in MI like there is or was in FL. theres just no such law.

however IWB's have always been a grey area because of the "in a holster in plain view" i don't know if anyone has been charged for an IWB but the posibillity is certainly there, so either use an OWB or conceal.

i am strongly thinking that i will be in uniform for the next council meeting, i really wanted to get up and say something after that "interesting comment by mr.d, but i knew i would say something that would have made me feel better. and my grandpa said this "if it made you feel better,then it was probably the wrong thing to say" but this guy really had it coming. also when i was up there i would have told that guy to at least pretend to list instead of dropping his head and looking around the room while i was talk, total disrespect by that yahoo.

and i will be speaking at the next council meeting. i will use some of his own words agaist him also, and tell him that we are not at this council meeting to "ask permission" but telling him we will be there so he can advoid getting sued. and if i am inside arts beats and eats and a cop asks me to leave i will refuse, the ONLY 2 ways i'll be leaving is 1. on my own accord or 2. in handcuffs.

i understand why scott and rob chose to leave a place they had every legal reason to be, when rudely asked to leave the marrysville eventand for them it was the right choice. but thats not going to be my choice. it just makes me sick when someone tries to bully someone else. like i said before there are only 2 ways to get someone to do something. 1. coercion 2. force.

since they won't be able to get me to leave by asking or telling me, they will have to physically remove me, probably by arresting me. i understand that. but after the legal system is done with royal oak and there pocket books have been emptied a little it won't happen again to anyone else, i hope.
shaun

 

[autosurgeon]

Guys Guys... You are confused.

IF army74 has a CPL and is NOT carrying in a PFZ then he can carry however he likes!

There is no such law in MI about printing or tracing or whatever it was called in this thread.

IF he wishes to carry in a PFZ with a CPL then he would need to use an OWB holster IMOP to be safe.

If anyone disagrees with me CITE the law supporting your disagreement.

 

[sprinklerguy28]

Email sent to City of Royal Oak


Dear Mr. Mayor, and City Commissioners,



I appreciate the opportunity to speak at your latest meeting. I would like to again extend my offer of any assistance to help the City of Royal Oak to make sure it is up to date and educated on current laws in regards to firearm possession. I would also like to express my concerns with many of the comments made by members of the commission. Our intent was to help the city avoid any negative interactions between law enforcement and citizens. In return we get called names and have our character questioned. I personally would be ashamed by the way several members of the commission acted. I would hope that after a few days of thought, the commission would realize we are law abiding citizens looking to help the city, not bring harm to it. We did not come looking to "bait" anyone. We came to bring a legal issue before the city to avoid problems in the future. I look forward to resolving these issues in a respectful and professional manner. Again, myself personally and Michigan Open Carry, Inc. are willing to lend assistance to the city in whatever fashion we are able.


Sincerely,

Scott Webb
Southeast Regional Coordinator
Michigan Open Carry, Inc.

 

[army74]

my iwb holster can also be used as a owb holster so it fits either way

 

[smellslikemichigan]

good email, scott. very thoughtful. you got your point across without stooping to their level.

 

[autosurgeon]

Just trying to help Army avoid any further issues with the law...if he carries a partially exposed handgun in the waistband my understanding is that that is NOT open carry. So then he is doing so on his CPL which would leave him open to being dragged in front of a gun board because "technically" it could be used as a reason by LEOs to do so.

He states it can be OWB also so there we go, he's all set...Now maybe we should consult one of our gun GURU's like Dougwg & see what they think about this? I honestly hope I'm wrong here but my understanding is LEO's can cite for CPL violation for partially [intentional] exposed pistol. Is it worth the hassle to deal with...in my opinion no, just OC & all is well.

A CPL holder carrying a gun partially exposed is not a crime in MI period.

If you are so concerned I suggest rereading the firearms laws for the state of MI. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...s2dULzu7CKhTNO_Ww&sig2=wRVGRRNcni2TviQYJGEyIw

 

[Glock9mmOldStyle]

Well done Sir!

good email, scott. very thoughtful. you got your point across without stooping to their level.

Ditto!

 

[Venator]

Just trying to help Army avoid any further issues with the law...if he carries a partially exposed handgun in the waistband my understanding is that that is NOT open carry. So then he is doing so on his CPL which would leave him open to being dragged in front of a gun board because "technically" it could be used as a reason by LEOs to do so.

He states it can be OWB also so there we go, he's all set...Now maybe we should consult one of our gun GURU's like Dougwg & see what they think about this? I honestly hope I'm wrong here but my understanding is LEO's can cite for CPL violation for partially [intentional] exposed pistol. Is it worth the hassle to deal with...in my opinion no, just OC & all is well.

There is no law against a partial exposed pistol as long as you have a CPL. Michigan doesn't have a printing law.

The problem could occur if you are in a no conceal zone (like a bar) and are using an IWB holster and claiming OC, then you might be charged with a CPL violation as some could argue that it's concealed and not open.

 

[autosurgeon]

As you may not be aware LAW often has little to do with how a LEO's choose to interact with us. Army has already experienced this first hand. I, as someone who knows him & considers him to be a good guy am trying to save him more hassles. So again, let's ask others with more knowledge to weigh in here. I find your posts to be somewhat abrasive but that could be a misread on my part - if you would like PM me your # & we can talk via the phone & I'll be happy to pay your (cell/phone) bill for the 5 minutes or so...fair enough?

I know all about how some LEO's choose to operate.

However the law is very clear ... IE there is NO LAW against printing or wearing your gun taped to your forehead if you choose.

I am sorry if I seem abrasive but I want the law or case law/guiding opinions posted here.

NOT personal opinions about printing/tracing which are not even an issue. And could tend to mislead folks who are just getting started.

Finally I urge anyone who reads anything on here or any other board posted by me or any other poster to independently verify it.

That is why I posted the MI Firearms Laws.

BOT

Now as to the situation at hand. They are playing with you guys. So the best thing to do is keep going to the commission meetings and keep being civil. They are trying to get a rise out of any one of you that they can use against us the OCers from MI.

The letter Scott wrote is great as it is short sweet and to the point. It puts them on notice that they are in violation of state law and that we know it. It also puts them in a bad spot should they choose to try and enforce the rules in the festival contract. As was mentioned before if we were baiting them we would just show up and OC at the festival and then take them to the cleaners if they harassed us. However we chose to take the high road... which I feel is the road we should always take.

 

[Glock9mmOldStyle]

autosurgeon

Thanks for the follow up. I understand you stating the law & agree. In this case Army has been unfairly singled out in my opinion by Law Enforcement so he needs to be extra cautious in my opinion.

We live in a world where those who are charged to uphold the law are often more than willing to set it aside if it doesn't fit their personal beliefs & biases.

Again not trying to argue just stating current status of a situation that you do not have 1st hand knowledge of.

 

[ghostrider]

autosurgeon

Thanks for the follow up. I understand you stating the law & agree. In this case Army has been unfairly singled out in my opinion by Law Enforcement so he needs to be extra cautious in my opinion.

We live in a world where those who are charged to uphold the law are often more than willing to set it aside if it doesn't fit their personal beliefs & biases.

Again not trying to argue just stating current status of a situation that you do not have 1st hand knowledge of.

What they don't seem to realize is that, "When they do that, they become worse than the normal thugs and gangbangers down the street, while giving other officers a bad name." The more this happens, the more difficult it becomes to distinguish between them, and officers who aren't that way. Unfortunately, when officers who are not like that refuse to stand up to this sort of behavior, the public has little choice but to group them together. It's sad that they don't understand this, because they've been conned into thinking that they don't need us, and we need them. These attitudes combined foment a lack of respect for the law, and contempt for LE in general. Not a good situation, and it's becoming more and more mainstream.

 

[scot623]

I have first hand experience with Leo's setting aside law for their own beliefs(Marysville). That's why I feel it is so important to address these Cities like Royal Oak through email or a setting of Commission meetings. I will do all I can to help PREVENT a confrontation between a LEO and a gun owner. When cities have old ordinances or clauses in contracts for festivals that infringe on our 2A rights, it is our duty to bring it to their attention in a professional manner. The 3 phone calls, 4 emails and 1 visit I made to the Commission meeting meets that criteria. I'll be back to another meeting on Monday, I hope to see a lot of supporting faces there with me. If they fail to address these issues and get sued because of it, at least I(we)can say we did all we could.

 

[scot623]

http://www.ci.royal-oak.mi.us/portal/meetings/city-commission/2010/07/12/city-commission-meeting

I couldn't find our OC folks on the video at all. Another really weird thing is near the end an older Gent stands up & asks about the OC people, then states he has a CPL (in a looking down @ OC way) & none of them seemed concerned about him? He appears to be a regular at the meeting from they way they speak to him. What a bunch of ass hats in my honest opinion. I will do my very best to be at the next meeting.

We are still there. Its in the first video(top one) around 12min or so. No foul play.

 

[PDinDetroit]

Back On Topic - Please take the IWB Discussion to another thread!

I have found what I believe to be the reasoning behind Commissioner Drinkwine's Response to me being present OC'ing. He is a retired police officer from the Royal Oak Police Department, having served for 28 years and leaving the force in 1999. Ah, so many things have changed since 1999 in regards to Firearm Laws in MI - guess we will just have to provide some education on the topics.

http://www.ci.royal-oak.mi.us/portal/departments/city-commission/commissioner-drinkwine

I have reviewed the City Commission proceedings again, especially the discussion at the end of the meeting. While I feel that Commissioner Drinkwine is out of line and is unlikely to change, I see hope that the rest of the City Commissioners started to understand the issues and will come around to understand that the Arts, Beats, and Eats (ABE) Contract does indeed have an illegal provision as it relates to firearms possession/carry. As for the Civil Emergencies Ordinance, it is simply a matter of READING COMPREHENSION AND UNDERSTANDING.

While I am not happy with how the City Commission handled this, I believe that we should take the "high road" as it were. I would be well within my rights, especially as a resident of Royal Oak, to take issue with how we have been treated and react by singling out Commission Members for ridicule, writing disparaging articles for media publication, and Open Carrying one of my Rifles to the next City Commission Meetings. It is my firm belief that we will go further with the OC Message by not doing the above activities just yet. Each person must decide for themselves what they will do.

I will be doing the following prior to this meeting:

A) Composing a letter around the issues within the ABE Contact's "No Firearms" Provision that make this provision unlawful in regards to 2A Incorporation due to SCOTUS McDonald Ruling, MI Constitution Article 1 Section 6, MCL 123.1102, MI Attorney General Opinion 7120 (PFZ - Entertainment Facility of Park/Fairgrounds), and MI Attorney General Opinion 7113 (Open Carry in PFZ for CPL Holders). I will post this letter once completed for OCDO Member Review and send to Commissioners & Mayor after that.

B) Composing a letter around the issues within the Royal Oak Civil Emergencies Ordinance that make 251-5 G & H unenforceable due to MCL 123.1102 and including the email history on this with the City Manager and City Attorney. I will post this letter once completed for OCDO Member Review and send to Commissioners & Mayor after that.

During the next City Commission Meeting, I intend to address the following concerns during the Public Comments portion of the meeting:

1. Statements about how/why we showed up at the meeting - to help and address concerns, not "set them up" as it has been referred to.
2. Breech of Commission Order/Decorum - Commissioner Drinkwine speaking during Public Comments, verbally attacking members of the Public who have made comments. In addition, making Jokes about the issues brought up by members of the Public on the issue of Firearm Rights.
3. Intent of City Commissioners to deprive citizens of exercising rights.
4. Intent of City Commissioners to have police harass and intimidate citizens for exercising rights.
5. Brief discussion on recent firearms changes within MI Law.

I think we have a very good opportunity further our goals in regards to educate people about Open Carry of a Handgun/Pistol in everyday life WHILE partnering with the City Of Royal Oak to address the concerns!

 

[scot623]

PD, I agree with the cool headed approach. But do not mistake having a cool head with being a door mat. They disrespected me and my brothers(sister too). I will speak to the AB&E situation again, following the additional 2 emails I have sent to the City Attorney since Monday. I will then speak to some of the inappropriate comments the Commission directed towards us. I am a professional, but I will not accept being treated like a punk.

 

[PDinDetroit]

PD, I agree with the cool headed approach. But do not mistake having a cool head with being a door mat. They disrespected me and my brothers(sister too). I will speak to the AB&E situation again, following the additional 2 emails I have sent to the City Attorney since Monday. I will then speak to some of the inappropriate comments the Commission directed towards us. I am a professional, but I will not accept being treated like a punk.

You got it! They do have to be "taken to task".

 

[lapeer20m]

as far as iwb oc at the city council meeting, if a person has a cpl, then it makes no difference. If you were "stopped" by an officer it would probably be in your best interest to disclose and produce id/cpl as if you were cc.

as far as this completely made up printing, brandishing, unexposed holster crap, there is no such thing. OWB OC with cpl is perfectly legal. No gray area at all, especially if you treat it as if it is cc just to be on the safe side. ie: not going into a bar or school, disclosing if stopped, etc.

 

[scot623]

A huge turnout would be fantastic. Hopefully it will bring these issues to the forefront of their discussions and help them to be resolved in a timely manner. I for one am looking forward to enjoying AB&E! It was fun in Pontiac and looks like it has the potential to be even better in RO. I love downtown RO. This is why i'm so passionate about fixing the firearm clause in the AB&E contract. I want to enjoy myself there, not be hassled or kicked out(times 10 for all the other legal firearm carriers attending)! I especially have no time for or interest in suing the city, thats for damn sure.

 

[jfrenchudm]

I intend to be at the meeting.

I will try and make to the meeting next Monday night. I generally watch the meetings late at night on the community cable channel, as that is usually when I am available.