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Ashland OC Ban

DaveT319

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2014
Messages
274
Location
Eugene, OR
There was a time when open carrying a rifle meant you were going somewhere to use it in a safe and lawful manner and no one looked twice. The rifle carrying activist may not be on his way to the gun range, but the panicked person calling 911 doesn't know that.

IMO, the ones carrying a rifle are usually looking for a confrontation. They almost always are also carrying a video camera when doing so. Many will say that they are just doing so to protect themselves IF a confrontation with police happens. I feel like they are HOPING a confrontation will happen. Especially when they are walking up and down the streets as though they are on patrol. It's one thing if they're going about their business, out on an errand, going someplace, or whatever. But the ones who walk up and down the street in busy areas seem like they are trying to elicit a response from the public. While it's true that they are free to exercise their rights in any way they see fit, I still believe they are hurting the cause.
It just seems a contradiction for so many to say that the purpose of a handgun is to allow you to fight your way to a rifle, then we turn around and say that a rifle has no defensive purpose and should only be carried by soldiers.

I don't agree with that premise at all. Most defensive shootings happen at close range where a handgun of reasonable caliber will be enough to stop the threat. If you are shooting at distances so far that you need a rifle to be able to put accurate rounds on target, then I believe you are no longer using it for defensive purposes, but instead offensive. The only time I can see that not being the case is if you live in rural areas and have a decent sized piece of property.
As far as I'm concerned, ANYONE who says "I support the 2nd amendment BUT...." does not support the second amendment. You either support it and the right of people to exercise their right as they see fit or you do not support it. There is no middle ground, no compromise. "Compromise" is what's gotten us to where we are now.

Of course there is compromise. There is ALWAYS compromise. People are carrying around ARs because they have been demonized lately. But I don't think they are truly a defensive weapon out in public. For defending your home, sure, if you really think you need that. But in public, not so much. Perhaps I should walk around with a Barrett M107 slung over my shoulder. Hey, it's my right, right? Can't tell ME what I can and can't carry in public, right? Everything in life is about compromise. It doesn't mean you give up your rights, it just means you don't throw it in people's faces.

And compromise is not what has gotten us where we are now; anti-gunners having a stronger voice than us is what's gotten us where we are now.
As for appearing before the politico's, with a very few exceptions I ONLY open carry and when I go before a political panel I'm carrying openly. I refuse to be "reasonable" with those who are doing everything within their power to very unreasonably strip me of my rights.

And I agree there, THAT is the time where you should especially exercise your rights, in front of the very people who would take them away.
 

MKEgal

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
4,383
Location
in front of my computer, WI
DaveT319 said:
IMO, the ones carrying a rifle are usually looking for a confrontation. They almost always are also carrying a video camera when doing so. Many will say that they are just doing so to protect themselves IF a confrontation with police happens. I feel like they are HOPING a confrontation will happen. Especially when they are walking up and down the streets as though they are on patrol.
Projection.
It doesn't matter why someone is carrying (as long as it's not to commit a crime),
it doesn't matter if they hope to be able to educate people (including police),
it doesn't matter if they're "making a statement",
it doesn't matter why they choose to carry any of their property (including a video or audio recorder),
it doesn't matter where they walk (again, as long as they're not committing a crime).

And yes, citizens do sometimes carry recorders to protect themselves.
I've won a court case in large part thanks to my hidden camera video showing the wrongdoing of police.
The judge read the perjured affidavit from their clerk, watched the video which clearly showed that she was lying, and found in my favor.

If officers aren't doing anything wrong, they have nothing to fear.


And compromise is not what has gotten us where we are now; anti-gunners having a stronger voice than us is what's gotten us where we are now.
I take it you've never read LawDog's analogy of the cake.
Here's the illustrated version.
 

We-the-People

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
2,221
Location
White City, Oregon, USA
IMO, the ones carrying a rifle are usually looking for a confrontation. They almost always are also carrying a video camera when doing so. Many will say that they are just doing so to protect themselves IF a confrontation with police happens. I feel like they are HOPING a confrontation will happen. Especially when they are walking up and down the streets as though they are on patrol. It's one thing if they're going about their business, out on an errand, going someplace, or whatever. But the ones who walk up and down the street in busy areas seem like they are trying to elicit a response from the public. While it's true that they are free to exercise their rights in any way they see fit, I still believe they are hurting the cause.

I'm occasionally one of "those people". I don't carry a recorder hoping to get into a confrontation, I carry it in case I get into one. A GOOD day open carrying, regardless of location or choice of weapon(s) carried, is one in which there are NO confrontations, people ask questions and become educated, and the recorders never come into play.

HOWEVER......I do not EVER carry, even in my daily carrying of a pistol, without at least one, and often several, recording devices for audio and video. Depending on the location, I may be carrying my IPhone with audio/video capability and a recorder APP that cannot (short of the device being destroyed) be turned off without a passcode, a clandestine audio recorder that would not be noticed except on very close inspection, and a wireless mic and transmitter set up that will transmit audio to a remote recording device that someone else can carry in a locked bag. AND a second person using an audio/video recorder from a discrete distance.

NONE of these are because I'm looking for a problem but there are jurisdictions in which the likelihood of a problem is such that it would be irresponsible not to be fully prepared to use technology to make sure the TRUTH is the story told before the court. Just read about MKEGals case and you will see the value of a recording.

Just the other day I was in Portland shopping. As I ONLY open carry, I was doing so that day. One of the technology devices I use is a police scanner. I heard a MWAG call go out and it was my location. I put down the products I had intended to purchase and walked out the door.....AVOIDING CONFRONTATION...... even though I had three separate recording devices (two audio/video).

Bottom line.....some of us are actively involved in activism to further the cause and we PUSH for our rights. That pushing is what allows others to go about their day unmolested.


I don't agree with that premise at all. Most defensive shootings happen at close range where a handgun of reasonable caliber will be enough to stop the threat. If you are shooting at distances so far that you need a rifle to be able to put accurate rounds on target, then I believe you are no longer using it for defensive purposes, but instead offensive. The only time I can see that not being the case is if you live in rural areas and have a decent sized piece of property.

And when your door is kicked down in the middle of the night by men wearing masks and carrying M16's, are you going to want a handgun or your AR15 and a few magazines of M855 62 grain steel core? I know what I keep handy (and it's much more than an AR15) because the number of incidents of masked intruders illegally breaking into homes are on the rise.


Of course there is compromise. There is ALWAYS compromise. People are carrying around ARs because they have been demonized lately. But I don't think they are truly a defensive weapon out in public. For defending your home, sure, if you really think you need that. But in public, not so much. Perhaps I should walk around with a Barrett M107 slung over my shoulder. Hey, it's my right, right? Can't tell ME what I can and can't carry in public, right? Everything in life is about compromise. It doesn't mean you give up your rights, it just means you don't throw it in people's faces.

And compromise is not what has gotten us where we are now; anti-gunners having a stronger voice than us is what's gotten us where we are now.

Compromise most certainly is the reason we are where we are. Were it not for that national "gun rights" group having capitulated and compromised over the last decades and accepting "reasonable" gun control measures, we might still have our rights. You know, when I was a kid in California I used to go out hunting with my younger brother. At 14 I had my own shotgun and it was kept in the trunk of my car, AT SCHOOL, WITH AMMO, and not a single law was broken. At 16 I walked into the hardware store, plopped down the money, and walked out with my Winchester 1200 pump shotgun and 2 boxes of ammo. That was then the weapon in my trunk, in the school parking lot, and never a law was broken.

How many felonies would that represent, for how many people, now that all these compromises have been allowed?

ME.... possession of 1st shotgun.....possession of second shotgun.....possession on school grounds

FATHER......allowing a minor unsupervised access to firearm (two counts, one for each shotgun)

Hardware store employee....... Transferring a firearm to a minor.

Welcome to the product of compromise



And I agree there, THAT is the time where you should especially exercise your rights, in front of the very people who would take them away.

Yet some (are you among them?) criticize the man who brought the AR15 to the Ashland City council study session.......a time and place where you yourself say "is the time where you should especially exercise your rights".



Definitely check out the cake analogy on compromising.
 

We-the-People

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
2,221
Location
White City, Oregon, USA
Oh I forgot


I AM DONE BEING REASONABLE IN THE NAME OF "COMPROMISE". It is time the other side give something up if they want to "compromise". I suggest they might give up on any of the following the next time they come looking for compromise:

BAN ON IMPORTATION OR MANUFACTURING OF FULLY AUTO WEAPONS

TAX ON TRANSFER OF CLASS III WEAPONS

TAX ON MANUFACTURE OF SUPRESSORS

TAX ON TRANSFER OF SUPPRESSORS

REQUIREMENT TO OBTAIN A CONCEALED CARRY LICENSE IN ORDER TO EXERCISE A RIGHT (ALL BUT A FEW STATES)

REQUIREMENT TO OBTAIN FIREARMS LICENSES IN ORDER TO PURCHASE A WEAPON (MANY JURISDICTIONS)

BACKGROUND CHECKS

WAITING PERIODS

"GUN FREE" SCHOOL ZONES



But hey, if you have something else to offer, I might listen......but they WILL give up something or I simply will not comply.
 

LibertyAshland

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2014
Messages
18
Location
Ashland, Ore
I really don't like the wording of that. "...prohibiting the unlawful carrying of loaded firearms..." Uhm... news flash... the UNLAWFUL carrying of loaded firearms is ALREADY prohibited. This would include carrying concealed without a license, and being in possession by a felon. What they are in fact trying to do is prohibit the LAWFUL carrying of loaded firearms, and THAT is what we have a problem with.


I personally think ANYONE open carrying a rifle is an idiot and hurts the cause and helps to erode our rights. An AR is not a practical nor reasonable defensive weapon, at least as far as carrying one in public is concerned. Does anyone here really think it should be ok and accepted for someone to have a semiautomatic rifle sling over their shoulder like a soldier? While it may fit in with your "rights", it's not "right". Rifles like that are already demonized; carrying them around in public isn't going to turn the tide of public opinion regarding them.

There's no denying it's your right. If you choose to do that, you may. But understand that you are probably doing a disservice to the open carry community by doing so.

I think you make fair points.

That said, there's a time and a place to bare one's "Liberty Teeth".

Presenting the fact that there is a spectrum of opposition can be advantageous. It makes the pistol carrying or even unarmed activist much more approachable, reasonable and seem much more "like them". If reason and words and good conduct can win us supporters and votes and in so doing dis-arm the threat posed our liberty so much the better, nay?

If reason and words and good conduct cannot do as I describe above, then having citizens with rifles and III'per cap badges that are not afraid to bear them now - is at least comforting to know they likely will if the time comes that they really need to.

I believe in being political, in as much as I believe in being polite and respectful to all citizens no matter their beliefs. We are though facing a situation where 'they' are not behaving politely and respectfully to others/us.

Should this town be flooded with long gun OC'ers right now? No, that would not serve us well.

Does a III'per showing up tooled up at the very first hint of local tyranny? I'd say yes.

Anyway, your points remain well received. I can see some though might see them as a cop out.
 
Last edited:

LibertyAshland

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2014
Messages
18
Location
Ashland, Ore
"death by a thousand cuts"

the slowly boiled frog

the gentle, slow, firm squeeze of the boa constrictor.

WTP see's it as it is.

No more, not an inch. That is all that accounts for the largely successful resistance last year, the uncompromising stance of GOA and here OFF. No more compromise. Those old timers were NOT joking when they said "liberty or death". They loved liberty that much that they would rather die than be denied it!

Remember the old poem? "...and when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out"?

Segmented factionalism in the pro-rights and pro-liberty group serves none of us, only those that seek to control.

If you don't like long gun OC, fair enough. I get the point. But, turning your back on those that choose to do so is like an adolescent child embarrassed by their parents dress sense.

A grown up response is to stand firmly by ALL your "family", embarrassed or not - disagree with their choices or not. There is strength in union!
 

DaveT319

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2014
Messages
274
Location
Eugene, OR
You've all made some really good points, and I appreciate that. I would never tell someone open-carrying a rifle that he does not have the right to do so. It's just my personal belief that most that do it are looking to be hassled by the police, if not just so they can have video for their YouTube channel, then so they can "stick it to the man". A hangun is a more reasonable self-defense weapon because of it's size, and therefore can and should be more easily accepted by the general public.

As for compromise, I don't believe there has been much compromise from our side with regard to gun laws over the last 30 years or more. I think that's just the antis having a stronger voice than us, and piece by piece taking our rights away. Compromise would be us choosing not to carry rifles around in urban areas even though it is legal to, not agreeing to let that right be taken away. Compromise would be allowing "universal background checks" even though we all know it will not prevent crime. Compromise keeps our rights intact while giving lip-service to the scaredy-cats.

It's true, we do all need to stick together in order to make sure that they don't take away our right. But that doesn't mean I have to like the way you choose to exercise that right. I still believe that in the long run, that kind of behavior is going to do more harm than good.
 

We-the-People

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
2,221
Location
White City, Oregon, USA
I have been out with a few long gunners who, at the end of the day were somewhat disappointed that there had been no LEO interaction. My response? No LEO interaction is a good day and a vast improvement over times past. Not all that have you tube channels and are open carriers are looking for fodder to make their channels grow. In fact, my own channel has a lot of Open Carry videos that have NO LEO interaction (there are only two on my channel). The majority of the OC vid's there are simply "hey here I am and I'm open carrying". A three day motorcycle trip, all OC. Citizen interactions while out OC. Outside a gun buyback where I was both saving firearms from the smelters and making some darn good purchases.

However, should "the man" decide to violate my 4th amendment rights while I'm out and about, you better believe it will be the featured video on my channel.

Yes, I said 4th amendment rights. It's not the 2nd that is violated by "the man" when you are out and about. That is done at the legislatures of the states, in the city and county governments, and in Washington DC. It is the 4th that is violated when you are accosted on the street and the stare decisis for the 4th is well established. Stopping someone for openly carrying a firearm, where it is legal to do so, is a violation of the 4th and subject to USC 42 ss 1983 civil suit.

In 1986 "compromise" brought us the ban on new manufactured full auto weapons and importation of the same. 1994 brought us the Brady Act. We've had the gun free school zones 1 (found unconstitutional) and 2......ALL within the last 30 years. Hear in Oregon, background checks and defacto (unlawful) registration are fairly recent.

Yes, there have been inroads made in concealed carry licensing.....but that isn't a "WIN", it's a concession. Shall Not Be Infringed does not provide for the licensing of a RIGHT, and yet time and again, we have accepted these things.....and we call them "WINS". They are not.

Universal background checks are not constitutional at the federal level (nor are the majority of federal laws these days). They constitute defacto registration and don't fool yourself into believing that they are not INTENDED to be used as registration schemes. Were they not, why would they insist on the make, model, caliber, and serial number of the weapon being transferred? If you pass the background check does it matter if you're buying a Ruger 10-22 or a DMPS 308? Only if you're creating a registry so that you know exactly what weapons are in whose hands.

Compromise does NOT keep our rights intact, it allows them to be whittled away, just as the cake in lawdog's analogy. A little here, a little there.

This battle is over "loaded carry" by non CHL holders. I have a CHL and it will not affect me, yet I am fighting it. WHY? Because it is just another little piece that they wish to take away in the name of "Compromise" and "being reasonable". I think not.

Should we flood Ashland with AR toting activists? No, not YET. Should they appear to be going forward, then all bets are off and tactics / strategy will be re examined to determine the best methods for accomplishment of the end goal. Is putting a large number of activists with non pistols on the streets a possibility? You bet. If the time comes, assets will be deployed in the way calculated to have the greatest impact on a city that DEPENDS on tourism (and a lot of it from California) for it's livelihood.

However, I don't think it will come to that as my read of the local government is that this thing will fall flat on it's face within the month. Probably at the very first meeting in which it is on the agenda and actual discussion takes place. You see, so far, it has only been on the agenda in a "study session". Supposedly where an ordinance is introduced and the rationale for why it is needed. Yet these ordinances (there are two and both exceed the authority of the city) was presented with no facts, no statistics, and no rationale other than "it's for the children" and "Sandy Hook sent us a letter". When the staff presented facts and statistics, it was glaringly obvious that 1) there is no problem that needs to be addressed. 2) Open Carried firearms are not an issue in Ashland. 3) The proposed ordinances would result in great expense to the city in the form of legal challenges. 4) they are unenforceable. and 5) the carry ban cannot actually BAN anyone from carrying. Those with CHL's are exempt and those without merely need to unload the weapon.

Bottom line, this will NOT be a situation of "compromising". They will drop it or they will be the "destination of choice for every open carry activist in Southern Oregon" (WTP at 1-21-14 Ashland City Council meeting).
 

DaveT319

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2014
Messages
274
Location
Eugene, OR
Just wondering, where was the compromise in the '86 or '94 laws? We didn't concede anything; the antis just took.
 

We-the-People

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
2,221
Location
White City, Oregon, USA
Four more citizens addressed the Ashland City Council regarding the proposed ordinances last night during the regular City Council meeting. All who spoke were Ashland residents and two were women. Three (including both women) were 100 percent opposed to the proposed ordinances. One gentleman urged action but seemed not to be supporting the ordinances so much as that the Council do their job (I'm waiting on public records request for that video to get another take at his comments).

Following the regular meeting, the Council had yet another study session on the proposed ordinances.

The city attorney had been tasked with taking the two proposed ordinances and returning to the Council something that he thought would "stand a good chance of surviving a court challenge". What he produced was a simple "loaded carry ban" ordinance with NO loaded magazine restrictions, NO inspection requirement, and completely dropping the second (safe storage) ordinance.

The sponsoring Councilor was NOT happy and things got a bit testy. Particularly when she said something to the effect of not caring about the safety of the children. Another councilor took considerable exception to that and there were some words exchanged.

Video is now up of the two ladies talking to the Council. Interestingly, one of them went over her allotted time and although the "red light" was glaring, the Council did NOT stop her for some time. She had an emotional ending.

I will try to attach links to both videos. If that doesn't work, I'll make a second post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tMsfxR6LVo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZujfmUyCPgE
 

Gunhobbit

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
35
Location
Out by Pendleton
The city attorney had been tasked with taking the two proposed ordinances and returning to the Council something that he thought would "stand a good chance of surviving a court challenge". What he produced was a simple "loaded carry ban" ordinance with NO loaded magazine restrictions, NO inspection requirement, and completely dropping the second (safe storage) ordinance.

The Portland Fishwrapper was burbling on about that, with Ashland looking to just a Portland-style ordinance on loaded carry instead. I was looking forward to getting the more interesting-er scoop here.... :monkey
 

We-the-People

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
2,221
Location
White City, Oregon, USA
The Portland Fishwrapper was burbling on about that, with Ashland looking to just a Portland-style ordinance on loaded carry instead. I was looking forward to getting the more interesting-er scoop here.... :monkey

Well the Portland ban includes requirements to have unloaded magazines as well as an inspection provision. The latter two provisions are in violation of 166.170 and 173 which we have apparently been successful in impressing upon city staff here.

I'm really looking forward to my records (video) request as I want to show how the sponsoring Councilor pretty much went 5 year old when she realized she wasn't getting her way.
 

Dave H.

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2013
Messages
28
Location
Oregon
I have been following this the best I can and thanks to "we the people" I can watch the video`s .
I think Councilor Carol Voisin doesn't care what anyone else wants, only what she thinks everyone should do regardless of their rights.
I also read and copied this statement and wonder, how this could be law and why.

"The March 18 public hearing will begin at 7 p.m. in the Ashland Civic Center Council Chambers, 1175 E. Main St.

People who carry guns into the meeting — whether carried openly or concealed — must show that they have a concealed handgun license, according to the Ashland Police Department. Some gun rights advocates brought guns inside the building during a Feb. 3 council study session about gun regulations.

Before a study session earlier this week, the city put up signs letting gun carriers know they must have concealed handgun licenses to enter the building. Extra police were on hand to enforce the law."
 

DaveT319

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2014
Messages
274
Location
Eugene, OR
Well, it IS one of the places you cannot open carry in unless you have a CHL, so I guess if you open carry they can make you prove that you are legally allowed to? Though I thought from what others have said in another thread that they couldn't do that, so it'll be interesting to see if anyone challenges it.
 
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