Birmingham: Open Carry is brandishing (Sounds like we need to attend another meeting)

[Michigander]

This is what concerns me the most about this case.

90 days in jail and a 100 dollar fine. That is the risk of carrying a long gun, aside from a MiDAP. If I'm not mistaken, an outright conviction would also bring with it no CPL for 8 years. He'd be 26 when he could get it.

He decided to put himself in this position, and I hope he'll have the will power to see it through, so that we can have some solid case law to go on. It will be perhaps the most notable act of OC activism in Michigan to date if he does.

 

[stainless1911]

Agreed. It's a shame that people who stand up for rights, typically pay the highest price for them. This has been a fact throughout history.

I hope, and believe that Sean will become a powerful voice for the preservation of our rights as a result of this insanity.

 

[scot623]

I have a hard time seeing Sean gamble with a jury. Venator is most likely correct that he accepts a plea. If he didn't take a plea, t don't see a jury a quitting him..his best chance would be one smart person who understands the law and freedom who refuses to vote to convict.

 

[stainless1911]

So much for justice. I wish they would get rid of the plea system altogether.

 

[smellslikemichigan]

I have a hard time seeing Sean gamble with a jury. Venator is most likely correct that he accepts a plea. If he didn't take a plea, t don't see a jury a quitting him..his best chance would be one smart person who understands the law and freedom who refuses to vote to convict.

a good jury member would also understand nullification and realize that you are under no obligation to convict someone (guilty or not) if you believe the law to be immoral.
http://fija.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification

 

[Small_Arms_Collector]

The pre trial is the 9th, and the trial is the 11th.

Anyone up for the council meeting on the 9th?

 

[DanM]

My prediction is that this will be pleaded down to a disturbing the peace only. He will take it and it will not go to trial.

I hope you are wrong. We will never be reasonably assured we're free from harassment if prosecutors know they have a chance of getting something to stick if they throw a bunch of crap against the wall and most gun carriers will fold, plea down, and eat at least one of the smaller turds.

If it turns out the way you predict, I have a message:

Do not OC if you are unwilling to stand up to bogus charges, having done nothing wrong on your part. If you are clean in an incident of wrongful arrest or prosecution, reach down, grab some scrot, and whisper molon labe.

Gun-rights are not advanced by a population of gun owners demonstrating to prosecutors that all it takes to get a gun owner to fold like a house of cards is to just throw crap against the wall.

 

[the500kid]

Ok, so since I haven't seen this brought up, but in light of the Ferndale ruling from the State Supreme court how can the judge say that the city has the right to make a firearm ordinance when the Ferndale ruling said they can't.

 

[Venator]

I hope you are wrong. We will never be reasonably assured we're free from harassment if prosecutors know they have a chance of getting something to stick if they throw a bunch of crap against the wall and most gun carriers will fold, plea down, and eat at least one of the smaller turds.

If it turns out the way you predict, I have a message:

Do not OC if you are unwilling to stand up to bogus charges, having done nothing wrong on your part. If you are clean in an incident of wrongful arrest or prosecution, reach down, grab some scrot, and whisper molon labe.

Gun-rights are not advanced by a population of gun owners demonstrating to prosecutors that all it takes to get a gun owner to fold like a house of cards is to just throw crap against the wall.

Dan,
Have you seen this thread on MGO? Posted by Sean's attorney on another case where the man was apparently innocent. It's a good and scary read and a cautionary tale. http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=183095

 

[smellslikemichigan]

thanks for posting that, it is very sound advice.

 

[DrTodd]

The effect of a poorly written law coupled with a prosecutor bent on sending a message that such behavior does not adhere to "Birmingham standards"... all to be decided by a jury of citizens who probably bought a house in Birmingham because of these same Birmingham standards. The fact that this is going this far is disgraceful.

 

[DrTodd]

a good jury member would also understand nullification and realize that you are under no obligation to convict someone (guilty or not) if you believe the law to be immoral.
http://fija.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification

Yes, but many courts take issue with nullification and do everything in their power to negate it. There is a judge in Kent County who will not accept such a decision by a jury.

 

[scot623]

a good jury member would also understand nullification and realize that you are under no obligation to convict someone (guilty or not) if you believe the law to be immoral.
http://fija.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification

But I fear the opposite may be true as well. Jim can lay out very clearly the laws that support Sean's actions and the Jury can still vote to convict because they don't like the idea of 18 year olds slinging rifles in downtown environments and not bowing down to authority.

 

[DrTodd]

a good jury member would also understand nullification and realize that you are under no obligation to convict someone (guilty or not) if you believe the law to be immoral.
http://fija.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification

Bue I fear the opposite may be true as well. Jim can lay out very clearly the laws that support Sean's actions and the Jury can still vote to convict because they don't like the idea of 18 year olds slinging rifles in downtown environments and not bowing down to authority.

Which outcome is more likely? I think I know the answer, and it is not a good one...

 

[DanM]

Dan,
Have you seen this thread on MGO? Posted by Sean's attorney on another case where the man was apparently innocent. It's a good and scary read and a cautionary tale. http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=183095

Yes, I've already read through that thread. Please notice that above I mention "having done nothing wrong on your part" and "you are clean in an incident". In my view, CLIENT's case was *chock full* of things which seriously detracted from the ability to make a solid argument that he had done nothing wrong and he was clean in the incidents giving rise to his charges.

Sean's case on the other hand, from what I've been led to believe, is strong with regard to arguing that he fits those things.

However, if he or his counsel feel that the facts as they know them don't really support that, then of course he should go with a plea deal. And I would argue, if that is the case, he should stop OC'ing until he is able to OC while conducting himself in a manner in which he can make a strong argument that he is doing nothing wrong on his part and he is clean in any incident he is involved in. Audio/video evidence helps with that, and that's why many of us who OC suggest that folks at least run audio recording appropriately as well.

 

[Small_Arms_Collector]

OK, how are these dates?

July 9th (The date of the pre trial) for a council meeting.

July 11th (The date of the trial, and also the CADL appeal.) a protest at the concert in Shain Park.

Maybe 8:30 on the 9th since we know from experience the council likes to hear itself talk before the hearing of the public, and 8:00 for the concert since that's when it starts.

 

[smellslikemichigan]

OK, how are these dates?

June 9th (The date of the pre trial) for a council meeting.

June 11th (The date of the trial, and also the CADL appeal.) a protest at the concert in Shain Park.

Maybe 8:30 on the 9th since we know from experience the council likes to hear itself talk before the hearing of the public, and 8:00 for the concert since that's when it starts.

are we time traveling?

 

[Glock9mmOldStyle]

OK, how are these dates?

June 9th (The date of the pre trial) for a council meeting.

June 11th (The date of the trial, and also the CADL appeal.) a protest at the concert in Shain Park.

Maybe 8:30 on the 9th since we know from experience the council likes to hear itself talk before the hearing of the public, and 8:00 for the concert since that's when it starts.

Okay for those that do not get my point. Going to these meetings annoys them, but that is about it. Having citizens call their offices hopping mad about them pi$$ing away police resources & getting the city a black eye in the national press is much more likely to sway them. We can attend more meetings, but we need to have several large group outings near the business / shopping center. It is no quirk of fate that the trial judge is also a member of the Birmingham rotary. Getting calls negative or positive from folks in the area is our best bet here. To date they have not even blinked, even under national news coverage.

After thought - these people have learned from Royal Oak - Arts, Beats & Eats. They will be much more low key in public and keep their dumb a$$ remarks to a minimum. Public pressure will win the day here. Also note we lack characters on both sides on ours mr webb & mr harris. Theirs - well sadly we do not have a mr witz to climb in front of a camera, or for that matter anyone in front of a camera from their side. What have from them so far is basically silence...

Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!

 

[TheShadow]

I gotta side with Glock on this one. It looks like they want this in the court system. Why play their game? Take it to their streets and neighbourhoods. Let them catch hell for letting this go on in their city. If they are too smart to get on camera, then I am sure Fox 2 can find one of their upity residents to say what they feel about people with guns in "Fashionable Birmingham, MI." Not here! Go back to the ghetto's! :uhoh:

 

[stainless1911]

Okay for those that do not get my point. Going to these meetings annoys them, but that is about it. Having citizens call their offices hopping mad about them pi$$ing away police resources & getting the city a black eye in the national press is much more likely to sway them. We can attend more meetings, but we need to have several large group outings near the business / shopping center. It is no quirk of fate that the trial judge is also a member of the Birmingham rotary. Getting calls negative or positive from folks in the area is our best bet here. To date they have not even blinked, even under national news coverage.

After thought - these people have learned from Royal Oak - Arts, Beats & Eats. They will be much more low key in public and keep their dumb a$$ remarks to a minimum. Public pressure will win the day here. Also note we lack characters on both sides on ours mr webb & mr harris. Theirs - well sadly we do not have a mr witz to climb in front of a camera, or for that matter anyone in front of a camera from their side. What have from them so far is basically silence...

Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!

I bet I could get them talking.

Whatever happened to that AT-4?