Bye Bye Habeas Corpus and Posse Comitatus

[Daylen]

Branch Davidians?

I thought so.

Gotta do better than that.

I said "...honest, moral, law-abiding..." remember?

What was their crime that deserved death without a trial? Or is it ok to kill those of a religion other than yours, because then they are obviously not honest, moral or law abiding?

 

[Dreamer]

Randy Weaver was a member of the Aryan Nation Worldwide Congress, and was anything but a "...moral, honest, law-abiding..." citizen.

Gotta give me something better than that.

Vicki was his wife. She was guilty of the heinous crime of being married to a racist, and holding a deadly "assault baby" in her arms while standing in the doorway of their cabin. She was killed with a headshot by an FBI sniper for this egregious violation...

And besides, if belonging to an organization that demands preferential treatment for people based solely on race is a crime, then you must believe that members of the ADL, the SPLC, and the NAACP all deserve the same fate, eh?

 

[Dreamer]

Branch Davidians?

I thought so.

Gotta do better than that.

I said "...honest, moral, law-abiding..." remember?

Actually, all the names I listed were CHILDREN under the age of 17. By definition, they did not have the legal ability to break the law of their own accord...

You, sir, a an apologist for murderers, sociopaths, and assassins. I pity you...

 

[MilProGuy]

What was their crime that deserved death without a trial? Or is it ok to kill those of a religion other than yours, because then they are obviously not honest, moral or law abiding?

I'm going to break my code of silence with you and respond to these questions.

David Koresh was an evil, immoral, sexually-perverted man who thumbed his nose at the laws of the land that the rest of us abide by.

He wouldn't come out of the compound, and neither would his lawless followers. It is a crying shame, because innocent children died that day, and their blood is on David Koresh's hands.

So...since they didn't come out of the compound, there was no possibility of a trial.

The religion of these people had nothing to do with why the authorities were there; and it was not the reason they died.

 

[MilProGuy]

Actually, all the names I listed were CHILDREN under the age of 17. By definition, they did not have the legal ability to break the law of their own accord...

Their blood is on David Koresh's hands...pity him if you want to.

 

[Citizen]

Randy Weaver was a member of the Aryan Nation Worldwide Congress, and was anything but a "...moral, honest, law-abiding..." citizen.

Gotta give me something better than that.

Fellas,

This is a perfect example of MilProGuy's inability to stick to the point. He'll go off on a tangent to maintain his "position".

Daylen mentions Ruby Ridge. MilProGuy argues Randy Weaver, rather than the son who was killed and mother who was killed. Randy wasn't killed.

This is really nothing more than an evasion.

 

[Citizen]

SNIP David Koresh was an evil, immoral, sexually-perverted man who thumbed his nose at the laws of the land that the rest of us abide by.

He wouldn't come out of the compound, and neither would his lawless followers. It is a crying shame, because innocent children died that day, and their blood is on David Koresh's hands.

So...since they didn't come out of the compound, there was no possibility of a trial.

The religion of these people had nothing to do with why the authorities were there; and it was not the reason they died.

You might want to look into it a little more. The info in the mainstream media, largely fed to them by the government, omitted rather important information.

For example, there was a fair amount of press about abuse of children, yet the Texas bureaucracy tasked with ferreting out child abuse had visited the property several times in the preceding years, but found no child abuse. Official reports. Not hard for the fedgov to find if they had really been interested in childrens' welfare rather than a talking point to smear the Davidians.

 

[HandyHamlet]

This is a perfect example of MilProGuy's inability ....

Amen.

The ignore button is great!

 

[MilProGuy]

Fellas,

This is a perfect example of MilProGuy's inability to stick to the point. He'll go off on a tangent to maintain his "position".

Daylen mentions Ruby Ridge. MilProGuy argues Randy Weaver, rather than the son who was killed and mother who was killed. Randy wasn't killed.

This is really nothing more than an evasion.

Thought I was addressing a specific remark. Tangent? Ok.

None of those at Ruby Ridge would have been killed had it not been for Randy Weaver. That's the point I was making.

Same with Waco...David Koresh is now in hell with the blood of innocents on his hands.

 

[MilProGuy]

Amen.

The ignore button is great!

Well, I see you're not using it. :monkey...AGAIN.:banana:
:monkey:banana:
:monkey:banana::monkey:banana:

 

[Citizen]

SNIP Just believe that living a moral, honest, law-abiding life will keep patriots from being treated like scumbag enemy combatants.

The Bill of Rights does not require one to live a moral, honest, law-abiding life. One can be the most immoral, dishonest, law-violating scumbag and he is still protected: because it was long ago understood that protecting the decent people means some of the scumbags will necessarily be protected, too.

Besides, I know you know better. I know you know quite well that the level of morality, honesty, and lawfulness will not stop an aggressive government agent who thinks he has a line on a scumbag enemy combatant. He's not going to look for the morality and honesty of his suspect. He is going to look for whatever he thinks will support the suspicion.

But, I'll pretend you don't know any better. It makes for more entertaining discussion.

 

[MilProGuy]

Thanks.

 

[Dreamer]

Thought I was addressing a specific remark. Tangent? Ok.

None of those at Ruby Ridge would have been killed had it not been for Randy Weaver. That's the point I was making.

Same with Waco...David Koresh is now in hell with the blood of innocents on his hands.

None of the people killed at Ruby Ridge were killed because of Randy Weaver's political or social affiliations--they were killed because the BATFE and FBI had tried on numerous occasions to entrap him into manufacturing a SBS, and he refused multiple times. They raided his cabin because they "thought" he might have "illegal weapons". His son and wife were killed because an undercover team at ATF/FBI didn't like the fact that he wouldn't fall for their ruse, and they were hell-bent on "getting their man" even if they had to set him up up to do it.

Weaver's only conviction was for "failure to appear", for which he received 18 months and a $10,000 fine. His family was, however, given over $3 million in baksheesh hush money by the Feds, under the provision that they not file civil suits against Lon Horiuchi and the other FBI triggermen...

If we base the "guilt" of the participants in Ruby Ridge just on how much each side had to pay out in fines and settlements, the score is Weaver:1, Feds:300. Do the math...

Ruby Ridge was a monumental Cluster Foxtrot of ego, posturing, and government corruption. It was no different than "Fast and Furious" in terms of the REAL story--the government fabricated a scenario without any sort of proof, evidence or RAS, acted on that scenario, and then tried to spin it to justify their lawless, sociopathic, anti-Constitutional actions. Period...

 

[Jack House]

It depends on what you mean by the term 'might'. 'Might' as I see it in this context is the extent of Power that an entity holds. Basically, the man with the bigger club, and the ability to use it, becomes the man who decides what is, and is not fallible.

Not to be insulting, but you don't seem too terribly intelligent. My use of the word might was quite clear. Strength, power, ability. None of that makes right.

The Government is bound to the Law that it creates by the backing of the people - sound more like it?

Samething I said, different words, doesn't change the end result.

We can go about this forever, but I have the, what might appear, contradictory reality that 'intent', and 'application' are two separate entities. I wonder what would happen if the Government made a Law that states it does not have to answer to the people. Are you willing to argue that such a Law cannot be made?

Any law can be made, it's enforceability is what is at question. Such a law would be in violation of the constitution. It would be struck down by SCOTUS and the offending parties would be voted out of office. If the people were stripped of their ability to vote, it would just lead to war.

If you think for a second the Government does not have contingencies for enforcing ALL Laws that they create, you attribute far to much strength of the people, and underestimate the Governments inherent nature to assure its survival at any cost; that includes an imposition at the cost of The Peoples lives.

Do you even understand your argument? No longer are you arguing that the government is infallible, now you're just arguing that it doesn't matter as they'll do whatever they want anyway. None of this has any bearing whatsoever on the original argument. The original argument was that the government would never hassle the morally righteous and law-abiding. You're now arguing that they will but it's ok because it's the government and they can do whatever they want. Did you understand the original discussion?

Randy Weaver was a member of the Aryan Nation Worldwide Congress, and was anything but a "...moral, honest, law-abiding..." citizen.

Gotta give me something better than that.

Randy Weaver may not have been a saint, but he committed no crimes. In fact, he not only obeyed the law, but refused to break it when the government attempted to coerce him into doing so. The standoff was his own doing? He negotiated a peaceful surrender with the US Marshals, but was rejected by the federal government. His crime of not appearing? His court date was scheduled for February 20th, but he was told it was March 20th. There was an arrest warranted issued for failing to appear. A warrant that the US Marshals did not want to execute, instead allowing him the opportunity to show up on March 20th. The prosecutor wanted no part of this. And demanded a grand jury indictment 6 days before what Randy believed to be his scheduled hearing. The director of the US Marshals drew up a plan that would have had Randy Weaver in custody with minimal resistance. This plan was rejected.

And why did all of this take place? Because an ATF agent's cover was blown and so they wanted revenge, digging out old dirt that didn't exist and attempted to blackmail a man if he did not cooperate. That is what lead to the initial hearing. That lead to the date being changed by one day, which lead to Randy Weaver being misinformed about the date. Which lead to a warrant being issued. Which lead to a vindictive prosecutor refusing, multiple times, plans by the US Marshals that would have completely prevented the standoff.

Once again, while Randy Weaver was not a saint, this is still a perfect example of the government murdering people for failure to cooperate.

I'm going to break my code of silence with you and respond to these questions.

David Koresh was an evil, immoral, sexually-perverted man who thumbed his nose at the laws of the land that the rest of us abide by.

He wouldn't come out of the compound, and neither would his lawless followers. It is a crying shame, because innocent children died that day, and their blood is on David Koresh's hands.

So...since they didn't come out of the compound, there was no possibility of a trial.

The religion of these people had nothing to do with why the authorities were there; and it was not the reason they died.

The reason they died, like Randy Weaver, is because the government wanted a showdown. David Koresh refused to leave the compound? Yeah, if there was an army standing outside my door looking for blood, I wouldn't leave either. He actually left the compound many times prior to the siege, and they had a lot of opportunities to arresting him without bloodshed. But this wasn't good enough for the feds.

 

[Beretta92FSLady]

WE ARE IN A DECLARED WAR. Even if we didn't declare it. Millions of bearded flea bitten dress wearing sociopaths have done so. They're dedicated to seeing our entire nation destroyed, and all of us turned into fellow muzbots, slaves, or corpses. The military should be unleashed to hunt down and neutralize every single one of them but the bed wetting fascist libtards (who insist they support things like gay rights and women's liberation) have thwarted nearly every effort in that endeavor.

On the same note I am wary of giving the civilian leadership within our government that much power, to tweek the laws they write and make "enemies of the state" out of people who oppose more bed wetting libtardism.

Don't worry, your precious man-hood will remain intact.

I love reading your posts, do you know why? They make me laugh - or are you being serious...there is no way you actually believe some of these things that you post.

 

[Beretta92FSLady]

[snip]


Any law can be made, it's enforceability is what is at question. Such a law would be in violation of the constitution. It would be struck down by SCOTUS and the offending parties would be voted out of office. If the people were stripped of their ability to vote, it would just lead to war.


[snip]

For the sake of space - I don't want to get into some line-by-line response, been there done that - some of the items don't require a response.

The lines I have highlighted are presumptuous.

A Law that is made, is enforceable until it is found to be not-Constitutional. Such a move leading to war is nothing more than wishful thinking.

 

[okboomer]

Branch Davidians?

I thought so.

Gotta do better than that.

I said "...honest, moral, law-abiding..." remember?

Woah, there was never ANY evidence that the Branch Davidians were any type of criminal or terrorist element.

Yes, there were unsubstantiated allegations of misconduct, but those were never proven. However, the ATF, Janet Reno and Slick Willie needed something to distract from the fiasco at Ruby Ridge, so they created the incident in Waco.

 

[Jack House]

Then they tried to do it again in Florida. I wonder whatever become of that boy.

Posted using my HTC Evo

 

[rodbender]

A Law that is made, is enforceable until it is found to be not-Constitutional. Such a move leading to war is nothing more than wishful thinking.

And in the meantime, the price one innocent person that is held for the years (or even one day) it takes to have it heard by SCOTUS (if they agree to hear it), is much too high.

 

[Jack House]

And in the meantime, the price one innocent person that is held for the years (or even one day) it takes to have it heard by SCOTUS (if they agree to hear it), is much too high.

I'm not sure that she understands what she is saying. Not the scope of what she is saying, but any part of it. Like she is just muttering words without knowing their meaning.

Still, I think it'd be very entertaining to watch the election night coverage with her. We should all meet up somewhere, have some booze and watch the elections. We could take bets. It'd be like watching a sports game, but oh so much more fun.