CA - 911 call of man that shot and killed 2 people that were burglarizing the house next door

[HankT]

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protector84 wrote:

The biggest mistake the neighbor made was calling the cops. Now they have everything recorded. I agree with Cloudcroft about trash. I am a non-violent person but that doesn't mean I am a doormat. I'd rather not kill any person or animal and don't like hunting unless it is necessary for survival. However, the more good citizens choose to tolerate the trash that pervades society, the higher the cost is to you, your friends, and loved ones, and the more the problem gets out of control.

I, for one, am getting increasingly tired of this "blind acceptance" of everyone regardless of whether they are quality people (those who have wisdom, values, intelligence, and decency) or social garbage (those who live their entire lives using and abusing others to get ahead). I am also sick and tired of this "give 'em a hug" mentality that we should keep trying to coddle and reform this garbage that clearly doesn't want to be reformed and many of which aren't capable of being reformed. Being non-violent doesn't mean I won't commit violence if necessary to protect the good from the bad but it means my mentality is about preserving peace which often does require violence to eradicate or control those who destroy peace.

Time and time again I have witnessed the police literally do nothing against criminals when there is plenty of evidence to put them behind bars yet at the same time they want to harrass the good citizens simply for interrupting their donut break.

This talk of property isn't worth someone's life is bullshit. I work hard for my money, I have a lot of bills to pay, and I have to put food on the table and keep a roof over my head. Food, shelter, and the utilities that I pay bills on are required to keep me alive. Yet McGruffy the dog or whatever the hell his name is would tell me to hand over my recently cashed check to a criminal rather than pulling out a 9mm handgun and painting the sidewalk with his brains. Same with someone trying to steal my car. I can't get to work or anywhere I need to go without it. There is a basic law of nature that public opinion ignores and that is you have a naturalright to protect your life and property. Go try to steal something from a dangerous wild animal and see what they do to you. Hint: The tiger won't give you a free cable TV subscription.

Maybe it sounds a bit archaic but a quality of a civilized society is when you have true warriors who are willing to take a bit of risk to protect the good from the wicked. Our modern day uncivilized society instead is full of ignorant helpless useless scared stupid paralized people who cannot do anything to make things right when faced with that choice whether or not they are firearms owners.

Maybe what the neighbor did was illegal but morality and law aren't always equal. The fact is that these two pieces of trash were robbing a citizen of his property, the man intervened and it sounds like he did give them a chance to stop but they chose to come toward him so he handled it the way that things used to be handled a long time ago.

There is something seriously wrong with a society that wants to constantly give wicked people unlimited chances to fix their behavior yet never once gives the good citizens a break in life.

Not to change topics but I still stand by my "don't call the police" opinion after using force. The law enforcement in my state, county, and city are full of criminals themselves. Cops getting arrested for rape, child mollestation, violent crimes, domestic violence, drug trafficking, theft, and other forms of corruption. Most of the time they are commiting these crimes with the help of their badge.The police are not a respectable organization nor should they be trusted to be on the side of justice. Maybe some of them care about doing the right thing. If they do, then they will turn in their badges and get a different job. You cannot be a cop and not be corrupt considering the type of laws they enforce.

As said before, if you are being attacked on the street and have to shoot someone in self-defense, you have a 5th Amendment right to keep your mouth shut which also means that legally you do not have to call the police. I really don't care if the crook is lying there bleeding to death. Good for him! That's what he deserves. What about all the senior citizens he's mugged, families he's robbed, and women he's raped? It is not my responsibility to ensure that he gets saved so that he can get a couple of pills and then get released back in society so he can do it again. For those who think my "rules" are twisted or warped, realize we live in a twisted society. Look at the way the cops are constantly involved in questionable shootings, putting people away for years over something like marijuana, and allowing crazies and criminals to continue to pervade the streets. We have a President who cannot even speak English, millions of aliensinvading this country, you name it. But let's remain stupid helpless citizens who are afraid to do the right thing because we might get on the bad side of the corrupt cops or let's instead call the corrupt cops so we can at least look good to the corrupt leaders in this corrupt nation.

 

[openryan]

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protector84 wrote:

The biggest mistake the neighbor made was calling the cops. Now they have everything recorded. I agree with Cloudcroft about trash. I am a non-violent person but that doesn't mean I am a doormat. I'd rather not kill any person or animal and don't like hunting unless it is necessary for survival. However, the more good citizens choose to tolerate the trash that pervades society, the higher the cost is to you, your friends, and loved ones, and the more the problem gets out of control.

I, for one, am getting increasingly tired of this "blind acceptance" of everyone regardless of whether they are quality people (those who have wisdom, values, intelligence, and decency) or social garbage (those who live their entire lives using and abusing others to get ahead). I am also sick and tired of this "give 'em a hug" mentality that we should keep trying to coddle and reform this garbage that clearly doesn't want to be reformed and many of which aren't capable of being reformed. Being non-violent doesn't mean I won't commit violence if necessary to protect the good from the bad but it means my mentality is about preserving peace which often does require violence to eradicate or control those who destroy peace.

Time and time again I have witnessed the police literally do nothing against criminals when there is plenty of evidence to put them behind bars yet at the same time they want to harrass the good citizens simply for interrupting their donut break.

This talk of property isn't worth someone's life is bullshit. I work hard for my money, I have a lot of bills to pay, and I have to put food on the table and keep a roof over my head. Food, shelter, and the utilities that I pay bills on are required to keep me alive. Yet McGruffy the dog or whatever the hell his name is would tell me to hand over my recently cashed check to a criminal rather than pulling out a 9mm handgun and painting the sidewalk with his brains. Same with someone trying to steal my car. I can't get to work or anywhere I need to go without it. There is a basic law of nature that public opinion ignores and that is you have a naturalright to protect your life and property. Go try to steal something from a dangerous wild animal and see what they do to you. Hint: The tiger won't give you a free cable TV subscription.

Maybe it sounds a bit archaic but a quality of a civilized society is when you have true warriors who are willing to take a bit of risk to protect the good from the wicked. Our modern day uncivilized society instead is full of ignorant helpless useless scared stupid paralized people who cannot do anything to make things right when faced with that choice whether or not they are firearms owners.

Maybe what the neighbor did was illegal but morality and law aren't always equal. The fact is that these two pieces of trash were robbing a citizen of his property, the man intervened and it sounds like he did give them a chance to stop but they chose to come toward him so he handled it the way that things used to be handled a long time ago.

There is something seriously wrong with a society that wants to constantly give wicked people unlimited chances to fix their behavior yet never once gives the good citizens a break in life.

Not to change topics but I still stand by my "don't call the police" opinion after using force. The law enforcement in my state, county, and city are full of criminals themselves. Cops getting arrested for rape, child mollestation, violent crimes, domestic violence, drug trafficking, theft, and other forms of corruption. Most of the time they are commiting these crimes with the help of their badge.The police are not a respectable organization nor should they be trusted to be on the side of justice. Maybe some of them care about doing the right thing. If they do, then they will turn in their badges and get a different job. You cannot be a cop and not be corrupt considering the type of laws they enforce.

As said before, if you are being attacked on the street and have to shoot someone in self-defense, you have a 5th Amendment right to keep your mouth shut which also means that legally you do not have to call the police. I really don't care if the crook is lying there bleeding to death. Good for him! That's what he deserves. What about all the senior citizens he's mugged, families he's robbed, and women he's raped? It is not my responsibility to ensure that he gets saved so that he can get a couple of pills and then get released back in society so he can do it again. For those who think my "rules" are twisted or warped, realize we live in a twisted society. Look at the way the cops are constantly involved in questionable shootings, putting people away for years over something like marijuana, and allowing crazies and criminals to continue to pervade the streets. We have a President who cannot even speak English, millions of aliensinvading this country, you name it. But let's remain stupid helpless citizens who are afraid to do the right thing because we might get on the bad side of the corrupt cops or let's instead call the corrupt cops so we can at least look good to the corrupt leaders in this corrupt nation.

This might be a silly question, but after hearing the tape of this, do you think what the guy did was legal, or murder?

There was also nobody home next store, and this guy pursued them. Even if it was legal it was a foolish choice. Police were there when he shot the guy. There were better avenues to go about it. A life was not at stake, just some 'stuff'. And if it can be avoided, which it could have been in this case, he should not have shot them, there were much better ways to go about this.

 

[expvideo]

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I think this guy made a huge mistakeand unnecessarily put a lot of people's lives at risk. I think it was reckless and irresponsible of him, and now he's going to be facing a lot of court fees and possible prison time. I mean what was he thinking calling the police?!

As for stopping the bad guys, it saddens me that these guys had to die over a little property, but they made the choice to enter into the burglary business. If you want to play big boy games, you have to play by big boy rules.

As for the legality, at least in WA state, homicide is justifiable ifsomeone is committing a felony in your presence (you'd think they would specify "violent felony", but they don't).


edit:spelling

 

[HankT]

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expvideo wrote:

I think this guy made a huge mistakeand unnecessarily put a lot of people's lives at risk. I think it was reckless and irresponsible of him, and now he's going to be facing a lot of court fees and possible prison time. I mean what was he thinking calling the police?!

As for stopping the bad guys, it saddens me that these guys had to die over a little property, but they made the choice to enter into the burglary business. If you want to play big boy games, you have to play by big boy rules.

If only Horn had waited 1 minute and 10 seconds more....or if the thieves had been 1 minute and 10 seconds slower...

Actually, if the timing of Horn exiting his house (contrary to the specific instructions of the dispatcher) had been a little different....and the same with the exiting of the thieves....and the arrival of the coppers.....wow....coulda been a real interesting collision of lethality.

:what:

Ahh, no matter what happened, some here, like John D. would twist it into a perfectly justified execution opportunity....

I wonder who among us, upon first reading the story and listening to the 911 call, reacted by exclaiming:

Dman! Why didn't I get the chance!!!

We know of a few, based on the posts above....

Boom! Boom! Boom!!:lol:

 

[cloudcroft]

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"I wonder who among us, upon first reading the story and listening to the 911 call, reacted by exclaiming:
Dman! Why didn't I get the chance!!!"



...I believe one of them was you, Hank, and I hope you get your chance.



-- John D.

 

[HankT]

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cloudcroft wrote:

"I wonder who among us, upon first reading the story and listening to the 911 call, reacted by exclaiming:
Dman! Why didn't I get the chance!!!"



...I believe one of them was you, Hank, and I hope you get your chance.



-- John D.

Yer outed, John D....


Boom! BOOM! BOOM!!

 

[expvideo]

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HankT wrote:

expvideo wrote:

I think this guy made a huge mistakeand unnecessarily put a lot of people's lives at risk. I think it was reckless and irresponsible of him, and now he's going to be facing a lot of court fees and possible prison time. I mean what was he thinking calling the police?!

As for stopping the bad guys, it saddens me that these guys had to die over a little property, but they made the choice to enter into the burglary business. If you want to play big boy games, you have to play by big boy rules.

If only Horn had waited 1 minute and 10 seconds more....or if the thieves had been 1 minute and 10 seconds slower...

Actually, if the timing of Horn exiting his house (contrary to the specific instructions of the dispatcher) had been a little different....and the same with the exiting of the thieves....and the arrival of the coppers.....wow....coulda been a real interesting collision of lethality.

:what:

Ahh, no matter what happened, some here, like John D. would twist it into a perfectly justified execution opportunity....

I wonder who among us, upon first reading the story and listening to the 911 call, reacted by exclaiming:

Dman! Why didn't I get the chance!!!

We know of a few, based on the posts above....

Boom! Boom! Boom!!:lol:

You make a good point. I wasn't there and I didn't see what he saw. I don't condone executing people when lethal force is not required. I'm opperating on the assumption that it was required. If not, he should not have killed those guys.

This is a tough case. On one hand, the operator is right that no piece of property is worth someone's life. But on the other hand, defending property with force is an important American value, and necessary to reduce crime.

The way I see it, until more details are in, I agree with what the operator said. But I think that the decision that property was more valuable than life was made by the theives, not the home owner. I think it's barbaric and I think I would have handled it differently, but I don't necessarily think he was wrong. Sorry I sounded a little blood-thirsty in my first post, I guess I should have thought about how that could have come across wrong.

 

[Legba]

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Well, I don't know about the 3rd world (i.e. Texas), but up north, stealing isn't a capital offense, and the thinking is that if the state can't execute someone for it, you aren't generally justified in killing someone yourself. The standard here is that someone's life or safety have to be directly threatened (or a person has to reasonably apprehend such a threat) to justify deadly force. This guy is screwed. Even if it isn't 1st-degree murder, he apparently did something for which he ought to be criminally culpable.

-ljp

 

[CA_Libertarian]

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Legba wrote:

Well, I don't know about the 3rd world (i.e. Texas), but up north, stealing isn't a capital offense, and the thinking is that if the state can't execute someone for it, you aren't generally justified in killing someone yourself. The standard here is that someone's life or safety have to be directly threatened (or a person has to reasonably apprehend such a threat) to justify deadly force. This guy is screwed. Even if it isn't 1st-degree murder, he apparently did something for which he ought to be criminally culpable.

-ljp

I'm not yet convinced that he is screwed. Consider this scenario:

Neighbor goes to investigate burglary. Burglar comes out of back yard with crowbar in hand. Charges 70-yr-old man with crowbar brandished overhead, ready to strike.

We don't know if this is what happened. However, we don't have enough information to assume it didn't.

I suggest we all hold off on the hasty judgements until more facts come to light.

 

[openryan]

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CA_Libertarian wrote:

Legba wrote:

Well, I don't know about the 3rd world (i.e. Texas), but up north, stealing isn't a capital offense, and the thinking is that if the state can't execute someone for it, you aren't generally justified in killing someone yourself. The standard here is that someone's life or safety have to be directly threatened (or a person has to reasonably apprehend such a threat) to justify deadly force. This guy is screwed. Even if it isn't 1st-degree murder, he apparently did something for which he ought to be criminally culpable.

-ljp

I'm not yet convinced that he is screwed. Consider this scenario:

Neighbor goes to investigate burglary. Burglar comes out of back yard with crowbar in hand. Charges 70-yr-old man with crowbar brandished overhead, ready to strike.

We don't know if this is what happened. However, we don't have enough information to assume it didn't.

I suggest we all hold off on the hasty judgements until more facts come to light.

Did you not listen to the same tape everyone else did?! This guy was bent on shooting someone...

We do not know all of the details here, you are right about that, but this is all recorded.

You can bet that if this man goes to trial... even assuming what he did WAS LEGAL, they prosecution will play this tape and show every other possible alternative that was a better choice than what he did. This man had more than one card in his hand, he played the wrong one.

 

[openryan]

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I should say this, most elderly people, even when convicted of murder, vehicular homicide, things like that, but not with a pure evil intent do not do a significant jail sentence. A lot of them get to go home but with prohbation and other circumstances.

Even if this guy is found guilty, I doubt his sentence will be "that bad" considering what happened.

 

[Legba]

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CA_Libertarian wrote:

Legba wrote:

Well, I don't know about the 3rd world (i.e. Texas), but up north, stealing isn't a capital offense, and the thinking is that if the state can't execute someone for it, you aren't generally justified in killing someone yourself. The standard here is that someone's life or safety have to be directly threatened (or a person has to reasonably apprehend such a threat) to justify deadly force. This guy is screwed. Even if it isn't 1st-degree murder, he apparently did something for which he ought to be criminally culpable.

-ljp

I'm not yet convinced that he is screwed. Consider this scenario:

Neighbor goes to investigate burglary. Burglar comes out of back yard with crowbar in hand. Charges 70-yr-old man with crowbar brandished overhead, ready to strike.

We don't know if this is what happened. However, we don't have enough information to assume it didn't.

I suggest we all hold off on the hasty judgements until more facts come to light.

I did qualify that he "apparently" did this as described. I don't presume to know the particulars.

-ljp

 

[imperialism2024]

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CA_Libertarian wrote:

Legba wrote:

Well, I don't know about the 3rd world (i.e. Texas), but up north, stealing isn't a capital offense, and the thinking is that if the state can't execute someone for it, you aren't generally justified in killing someone yourself. The standard here is that someone's life or safety have to be directly threatened (or a person has to reasonably apprehend such a threat) to justify deadly force. This guy is screwed. Even if it isn't 1st-degree murder, he apparently did something for which he ought to be criminally culpable.

-ljp

I'm not yet convinced that he is screwed. Consider this scenario:

Neighbor goes to investigate burglary. Burglar comes out of back yard with crowbar in hand. Charges 70-yr-old man with crowbar brandished overhead, ready to strike.

We don't know if this is what happened. However, we don't have enough information to assume it didn't.

I suggest we all hold off on the hasty judgements until more facts come to light.

I was thinking this too. While it isn't really the best idea to go around shooting anyone that one thinks can harm one, I tend to think that committing a traditional crime with a victim is a good indication that the perpetrators might just be a little more likely to be dangerous than someone walking down the street wearing a hoodie. While I don't think I'd chase after a criminal on a neighbor's property, especially given the "self-defense" laws in PA, I definately would go to condition orange. Maybe I'd open a window and pump my shotgun from inside my house without aiming it... that, I think, would separate the opportunity criminals who will run away from guns from those criminals who are truly a danger. If it's the former, a crime has just been stopped or prevented, and perhaps more crimes in the future have been prevented if the perpetrators got scared sh*tless. If it's the latter, and the criminal decides to come at me, I'm in a defensive position (both tactically and legally). Then again, I'm of the opinion that crime should be stopped, not allowed to happen and then the perpetrators be executed.

 

[longwatch]

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http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2007/11/20/tuchman.houston.shooting.cnn

Running as one of the most watched stories today.

 

[Reverend73]

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I'm not sure Joe Horn made the smartest decision to go outside and confront the perps, but if they tried to attack him, and he did not leave his property, I think it would be justified. This article http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5306638.htmlstates that both criminals were shot at distances of less than 15ft. Thats pretty darn close if they infact had crowbars.

Also, the case is before a grand jury. Somehow I doubt they will indict him.

 

[Marco]

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:question:If good citizens don't protect their homes/neighborhood who will.

 

[HankT]

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Reverend73 wrote:

I'm not sure Joe Horn made the smartest decision to go outside and confront the perps, but if they tried to attack him, and he did not leave his property, I think it would be justified. This article http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5306638.htmlstates that both criminals were shot at distances of less than 15ft. Thats pretty darn close if they infact had crowbars.

Also, the case is before a grand jury. Somehow I doubt they will indict him.

Yes, what happened to the crowbar(s)?

I read one report that said one thief was shot in the front, one in the side. Wonder what "side" means?

This goof with a gun ran outside his house to go and meet up with these thieves--so he couldself defend himself! :uhoh:

Good thing they didn't have a head start. This guy doesn't look like he could have caught up to them...

Hey, you bast*rds! Come back! I need to DEFEND MYSELF!

 

[openryan]

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The point remains, this guy went out of his way to be in a confrontation. There were other, real, viable alternatives, that would have worked much better here, for him.

He had one thought on his mind from the get-go, shoot these 'fellers. He was pinned on it from the beginning of the call, and he seemed like the type of person that just need a little encouragement from the dispatcher to go and do his deed. However when he didn't get it, he obviously talked himself up enough to where he built up his own courage.

He picked the wrong alternative.

And still, THE POLICE WHERE THERE WHEN HE SHOT THE THIEVES... If the police where there and someone was breaking into the NEIGHBORS HOUSE, NOT YOURS, I do not think anyone could logically say, not to let the police handle it. It doesn't make sense from a legal stand point to even place yourself to be in remotely questionable jeopardy.

 

[MetalChris]

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Agent19 wrote:

I couldn't convict based on what I have viewed.
Hornattempted to preform a citizens arrest.
:question:If good citizens don't protect their homes/neighborhood who will.

Hornoffered the two criminals a chance to surrender and told them what the out come would be if they didn't comply.

Now that I've thought about it some more, I don't think he did anything wrong by going out of his house. Where this guy screwed up is saying over and over "I'm gonna kill 'em". He established his intent before going out and initiating contact. He was NOT trying todetain the perps, his clear intention was to blast 'em.

If he'd simply stepped out of his house (without all the "kill talk")and tried to detain them, who then attacked him and where killed when he defended himself...that would be a different story altogether.

 

[Marco]

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