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CCW shall issue bill now in play!

marshaul

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Assemblyman Tom Ammiano,
Re: AB 357

I have recently become aware of a bill before the assembly, enumerated as AB 357, which seeks to amend Section 12050 of the California Penal Code in order to modify the conditions under which county Sheriffs process licensure for the carrying of Concealed Firearms within the State of California (such a license is referred to in PC 12050 as a "License to carry concealed a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person").

In brief, I urge Assemblyman Ammiano to support AB 357. This bill provides numerous public safety, legal, and financial benefits to the residents of San Francisco, and of California as a whole. Most importantly, clarifying the conditions under which Licenses to Carry are granted allows law-abiding & nonaggressive, trained Californians the means to best defend themselves when the police -- subject to ever-tighter budget restraints -- are simply not available, and seconds count. Reading the current text of PC 12050, county Sheriffs imagine for themselves unreasonable latitude in their issuance standards from the phrase "may issue" as it appears in PC 12050. The result is that, in some counties licenses are issued whenever "good cause" is determined to exist, and in others they are denied regardless. AB 357 amends this phrase to read "shall issue", thus requiring Sheriffs to issue permits wherever "good cause" is determined to exist.

Furthermore, there are serious Constitutional ramifications to the current state of PC 12050. The Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution (which our own State Constitution reiterates as the Supreme Law of the Land) requires that every person be entitled to equal protection under the law. When taken into consideration the broad and well-defined State preemption in Firearms regulation, it is clear the intent of PC 12050 is to create a State-wide system for licensing qualified Californians in the carrying of concealed Firearms. However, from actual practice, whereby each county follows their own rules, and no homogeneity can be found in the issuance standards from county to county, it is clear that Californians are not afforded equal protection under the law with regard to Firearms licensure and county of residence. This is not an issue of local politics and government because, as would be the case with analogous driver's licensing, when the law is written to be uniform across the state, but is applied so as to be irregular from locale to locale, individuals are receiving different application of the same law depending upon where they reside, which can hardly be described as "equal protection under" (also interpretable as "equal application of...") the law.

There is one final benefit of AB 357 which I feel it worthwhile to point out. I applaud Assemblyman Ammiano's introduction of AB 390, which would (most relevant here) bring in numerous tax monies to the State of California through the taxation of Cannabis production and distribution. AB 357 could provide similar desperately needed financial assistance to the State, which already has the mechanism in place to license and tax the carrying of concealed firearms, but which mechanism is vastly underemployed due to the confusion engendered by the irregular application at the county level of PC 12050. Countless peaceful and nonaggressive Californians would avail themselves of this privilege, but it is commonly believed among ordinary Californians who possess firearms for the defense of their persons and family that such licensure is only for the rich and famous here in the Golden State. We should be ashamed that so many have so low an opinion of the fairness of our fine State's government at the county level! (I need not dwell on political corruption regarding the involvement of "may-issue" licensure in recent political patronage scandals.)

What we have in AB 357 is a chance to simultaneously acknowledge and shrug off this shame, render our laws in accordance with the Fourteenth Amendment, and enable the State to reap the full financial rewards of a tax system already in place, at a time when it needs them most.

Thank you for your attention,
xxxx
 

Tippet

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San Diego, California, USA
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Greeting folks, new guy here. Thsi is my first post.



I was excited to hear of this proposed new bill, I will support it I guess, but frankly

this bill sucks.

We would still have to show just cause, and the sherrif's office would have to agree.

I got my first CCP in Redmond Wa in the early 80's. I went to the local PD and filled out a form, got fingerprinted, and paid a small fee. I think it was $5. A week later, after they'd had time to confirm I'm not a felon, they called me up and I went down there to pick it up.

That's what shall issue means to me. If you're not prohibited from owning a pistol, you shall upon application be issued a license to carry it concealed. You shouldn't have to convinvce the issuing authority you have a special need for it.
 

ntnwwnet

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Tippet wrote:
You shouldn't have to convinvce the issuing authority you have a special need for it.

**********

To repost mjones' replies only 1.5 pages back:

Maybe you didn't read the post of the actual changes...the 5th post in this thread.

This legislation specifically strikes out good cause for all county sherrifs.

Good cause would still be required of Chief LEOs of municipal PDs...but who cares, there isn't anything to prevent you as the citizen of a county from going to that county regardless of what city you might live in.

and

Cliff's Notes:

Section A - Applies to County Sherrifs - Removes 'good cause' and changes may issue to shall issue

Section B - Applies to the head of a municipal (city) police department - unchanged - to my knowledge its not possible to be a resident of a city without also being the resident of some county.

Section C - Applies to all chief LEOs of either a county or municipality - gives them the ability to not charge anything for the license.

Summary:
  • "Good cause" is removed from section A. The county sheriff MUST issue a CCW if you meet all requirements (age, not a felon, etc.).
  • While good cause still exists when applying to your local PD, you still have the option of applying to the county sheriff instead. Which leads us to...
  • The "good cause" requirement in section B, in reference to a local PD, is negligible. You can bypass the requirement entirely by simply applying to the county sheriff.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.
 

Tippet

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Ah, good. I'm glad to find I'm mistaken. Thank you.



Gosh I was tickled pink to find out about this bill, and so disappointed when I misread it, thinking we'd still be required to convince the sherrif of "just cause". That's how they keep us here in San Diego from arming ourselves, they simply refuse to agree regarding just cause. If this bill changes that, it'll be a great thing, despite the requirement for training. Not that I'm against training, but again my idea of "shall issue" means I'm not a criminal, quit making me jump through hoops.
 

flintlock tom

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San Diego, California, USA
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Tippet wrote:
...my idea of "shall issue" means I'm not a criminal, quit making me jump through hoops.
Tippet,
Welcome to the forum. I am sorely tempted to ask to use the above comment as a sig line. It nails the whole purpose of this forum pretty darn well.
You will have to look long and hard to find someone here who would disagree with you.

+10
 

wayneco

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Washoe County, Nevada, USA
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I remain concerned that Sheriffs will simply refuse to entertain applications from those who live in incorporated areas of their county. For instance, San Francisco is a City and County and Sheriff Hennessey (who is an attorney, not a LEO and the only non LEO Sheriff in the state of CA, I might add) boasts that nobody gets CCW permits from him, ever.

He could simply say to SF residents "go see the chief of police, I am not accepting any applications, you are not under my jurisdiction" and barring a fight to the CA State Supreme Court, he'll simply thumb his nose at the law.

This scenario could be applied to any CA metro counties, meaning more of the same.
 

brokenbarrel

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blowing dust, Arizona, USA
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i can open carry loaded and exposed on my way to and from work during work (while in uniform)but magicaly when i take off my work clothes i lose my rights:banghead:...hope they dont get lost completely in the washing machine..:shock:pC 12031(d)(5) security officer and yes its different from guard..:exclaim: has anybody been watchingAB 1167 im curious to know if non-res CCWs would work here...see where im goin with this.
 

bigtoe416

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wayneco wrote:
I remain concerned that Sheriffs will simply refuse to entertain applications from those who live in incorporated areas of their county.
Quoting CA_Libertarian, who I agree with here:
The way I understand it... Sheriffs don't have the option to refuse applications. They routinely do, but this works out to be them basically telling the applicant, "I will deny your permit if you apply here."

If this bill becomes law, the sheriff - who can't refuse an application from a resident in his jurisdiction - would be required to issue the permit unless the person is prohibited.

(Disclaimer: I'm not extremely well-versed in current CCW permission slip pandering practices, as I have no interest in a permit. So take the above with a grain of salt.)
Sheriffs routinely perform duties in incorporated areas (serving subpoenas comes to mind). County laws apply to incorporated areas, cities don't prevent Sheriffs from entering, a Sheriff would be hard pressed saying that incorporated areas don't fall under their jurisdiction, and the San Francisco Sheriff's department would be useless since to my knowledge, every part of the County of San Francisco is also part of the City of San Francisco.
 

Decoligny

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bigtoe416 wrote:
wayneco wrote:
I remain concerned that Sheriffs will simply refuse to entertain applications from those who live in incorporated areas of their county.
Quoting CA_Libertarian, who I agree with here:
The way I understand it... Sheriffs don't have the option to refuse applications. They routinely do, but this works out to be them basically telling the applicant, "I will deny your permit if you apply here."

If this bill becomes law, the sheriff - who can't refuse an application from a resident in his jurisdiction - would be required to issue the permit unless the person is prohibited.

(Disclaimer: I'm not extremely well-versed in current CCW permission slip pandering practices, as I have no interest in a permit. So take the above with a grain of salt.)
Sheriffs routinely perform duties in incorporated areas (serving subpoenas comes to mind). County laws apply to incorporated areas, cities don't prevent Sheriffs from entering, a Sheriff would be hard pressed saying that incorporated areas don't fall under their jurisdiction, and the San Francisco Sheriff's department would be useless since to my knowledge, every part of the County of San Francisco is also part of the City of San Francisco.

The Sheriff's only way to get around having to deal with every applicant is to require that an applicant first apply with the CLEO of their city. This CLEO still has the "good cause" requirement in the law post AB 357.

Then if the applicant is denied by the City CLEO the County Sheriff would be required to accept the application and would then be required to "shall issue".
 

USPSureShot

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Mar 3, 2009
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Sante, California, USA
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Bill Status: Committee on Public Safety.
I did not see any place this was posted so click here to see the current status:
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/postquery?bill_number=ab_357&sess=0910&house=B&author=Knight

What this means is it needs to be moved out of this committee and on to the next one.

The Commitee on Public Safety is controlled by the Democratic party.
To see a list of Committee members click nere:
http://www.assembly.ca.gov/acs/newcomframeset.asp?committee=57

Jose Solorio is the Committee Chair. He decides when or if this bill can be heard by the committee.
http://democrats.assembly.ca.gov/members/a69/

Does anybody up in the Garden Grove/Anaheim area know this representative?

Sending messages/phone calls to the members on this committee my expedite action.

But remember, making Legislation and Sausages are better not observed by the faint of heart.
 

Dessun

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Galt, CA, ,
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Here's the latest info for those too lazy to check lol. I'm a little worried about the highlighted part, but I don't know much about the process so I could be jumping at shadows.



CURRENT BILL STATUS


MEASURE : A.B. No. 357
AUTHOR(S) : Knight.
TOPIC : Firearms: license to carry concealed firearm.
HOUSE LOCATION : ASM
+LAST AMENDED DATE : 04/13/2009


TYPE OF BILL :
Active
Non-Urgency
Non-Appropriations
Majority Vote Required
State-Mandated Local Program
Fiscal
Non-Tax Levy

LAST HIST. ACT. DATE: 04/14/2009
LAST HIST. ACTION : In committee: Set, first hearing. Hearing canceled at
the request of author.
COMM. LOCATION : ASM PUBLIC SAFETY
HEARING DATE : 04/21/2009

TITLE : An act to amend Section 12050 of the Penal Code,
relating to firearms.
 

junglebob

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Southern Illinois, Illinois, USA
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wayneco wrote:
I remain concerned that Sheriffs will simply refuse to entertain applications from those who live in incorporated areas of their county. For instance, San Francisco is a City and County and Sheriff Hennessey (who is an attorney, not a LEO and the only non LEO Sheriff in the state of CA, I might add) boasts that nobody gets CCW permits from him, ever.

He could simply say to SF residents "go see the chief of police, I am not accepting any applications, you are not under my jurisdiction" and barring a fight to the CA State Supreme Court, he'll simply thumb his nose at the law.

This scenario could be applied to any CA metro counties, meaning more of the same.
I'm from Illinois one of 2 "right denied" states where nobody gets a LTC. I saw the topic about shall issue legislation and thought I'd reply. We have a good shall issue LTC bill in the Illinois House of Representatives right now. It even says Illinois would recognize all other states LTC and has few areas off limits to carry. Don't know that it will go anywhere the speaker of the house may not let it to the house floor for a vote. However the idea of shall issue LTC in Illinois is gaining support, 2 counties in Southern Illinoishad a resolution on the spring ballot "Should Illinois pass LTC legislation" one county got 90% yes votes, the other 84% yes votes(yes ninety % and eighty four %). Over 5000 people went to the capital this spring to lobby for LTC and against bad gun legislation.

I imagine even if this legislation goes through there might be problems with the sheriff mentioned. I have a Pennsylvania and Utah non-resident LTC. The Pa Non-resident LTC is issued by the Centre CountySheriff's Department and they normally issue in 10 to 14 days including snail mail time. However some one told me that it can take months to get a LTC if you live in Philadelphia and they add extra requirements not called for under state law. They ask that you be finger printed, ask that references be in their county, will contact neighbors andyour employer to ask about your character, in other words do things to discourage you.Someone said it is not uncommon for people to inquire after a couple month wait and be told that their application can't be found and they need to reapply.

Any of you folks have a Utah non-resident LTC?

Here in Illinois we are in somewhat the sameplace as you Californians on open carry it is legal in unincorporated rural areas, outside a vehicle, if not prohibited by local ordinance, and you have an Illinois Firearm Owners ID (FOID) card. Open carry in rural areas is rare here, though I do so when walking my dog.

Hope you guys getshall issue.
 
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