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Chesapeake General Hospital Public Hospital - Claiming to be private property

peter nap

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Renegade wrote:
Yep, that's the right address.
Kenny showed me that the other day. I checked with the assessors office and they swear the Hospital owns it. The Hospital shows as the owner on the surrounding parcels.

I need to actually see the deed and also find out who this person (company) is.
 

simmonsjoe

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Hawkflyer wrote:
Mike wrote:
Hawkflyer wrote:
These authorities can have separate taxing authority with sanction of the legislature, and they stand outside the normal restrictions in other areas. Only if they actually get funding from a governmental entity can they be forced to adhere to the same restriction that apply to government.

Check out this article. It tells part of the story you need to understand.
You are confused - the article pertains to the concept of sovereign immunity under Virginia law and if anything stands for the proposition that local authorities are in fact terated as municipal corporations under the law - local authorities are local authorities regardless of where they get their money, and the NOVA park authority is a local authority and they know they are preempte by 15.2-915 and have taken specific action to repeal their old preempted gun banning regulations.

I am not confused, you are missing my point.

As I said there are comparisons between Park authorities and other types of locally created authorities. These entities are all over the place and they are not government entities in all cases.

You are lost in the specifics of the gun issue. While I have provided the sovereign immunity link as an example of the unexpected consequences of the formation of these organizations, I am not arguing that this particular hospital is sovereign. I am also NOT making any argument related to NVRPA and their firearms status. All I am trying to point out is that these authorities are held to different standards and laws than the governments of the jurisdictions that they serve. They are frequently held to be separate entities from the local government and so the same restrictions may not always apply that might with an outright governmental entity.

There were a number of court battles fought to establish what laws might apply to NVRPA in the 1970's and 80's. Because they had accepted federal funds a number of federal laws came into play that would not have otherwise.

The point I was trying to make here is that you cannot assume that simply because this hospital authority serves a seemingly governmental function, and that they are located in Virginia or even that they may be owned by a local government, that they are in fact a governmental entity that would be covered by the general prohibition on gun regulations that would apply to an actual governmental body. The courts will look at where they get their funding. If they do not get public funds, you may have to go to court to establish the actual status of the organization. This difference in legal status is one of the reasons local governments use "Authorities" to perform certain functions outside the normal governmental umbrella.

Regards
If I'm not mistaken, VCU also has this immunity. It is one of the reasons they claim to be able to ban firearms on their premises. The AG says it doesn't matter as their policy cannot affect those not employed or enrolled at VCU. I'm just saying I don't see how their immunity would affect non-employees.
'IANAL
 

kenny

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Was the metal detector just at the emergency room entrance?

What if anything is located at the main entrance?

Does the hospital have a lock down mental health unit or accept mental health patients in the emergency room?

I know a lot of you love to read and give your interpretation of law and case law. However hospitals have rules, regulations and procedures designed to assist in the diagnoses and treatment of a variety of illnesses and injuries.

Just some food for thought. Not even LEO are allowed to take their weapon past a certain point.
 

paramedic70002

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kenny wrote:
Was the metal detector just at the emergency room entrance?

What if anything is located at the main entrance?

Does the hospital have a lock down mental health unit or accept mental health patients in the emergency room?

I know a lot of you love to read and give your interpretation of law and case law. However hospitals have rules, regulations and procedures designed to assist in the diagnoses and treatment of a variety of illnesses and injuries.

Just some food for thought. Not even LEO are allowed to take their weapon past a certain point.
It's been a few years since I worked at CGH ED and they didn't have metal detectors or plainclothes security. They have a locked geriatric psych unit. They see psych patients in the ED just like every other ED. And yes, they have a cafeteria, if you're brave enough to eat hospital food!

I wonder if you could gig the security officer with some type of violation "under color of authority" since he is apparently an agent of the government? That would probably put a chill on further illegal activity.
 

Pagan

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paramedic70002 wrote:
kenny wrote:
Was the metal detector just at the emergency room entrance?

What if anything is located at the main entrance?

Does the hospital have a lock down mental health unit or accept mental health patients in the emergency room?

I know a lot of you love to read and give your interpretation of law and case law. However hospitals have rules, regulations and procedures designed to assist in the diagnoses and treatment of a variety of illnesses and injuries.

Just some food for thought. Not even LEO are allowed to take their weapon past a certain point.
It's been a few years since I worked at CGH ED and they didn't have metal detectors or plainclothes security. They have a locked geriatric psych unit. They see psych patients in the ED just like every other ED. And yes, they have a cafeteria, if you're brave enough to eat hospital food!

I wonder if you could gig the security officer with some type of violation "under color of authority" since he is apparently an agent of the government? That would probably put a chill on further illegal activity.



If the Security officer is also a registered Special Conservator of the Peace,(many are),I bet the coercion under color of law statue would be easily applied, also security officers are charged with enforcing client policy as long as the policy does not violate the law, this could make the officer and client guilty of crimes, IMO.

IANAL
 

simmonsjoe

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Mike wrote:
simmonsjoe wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, VCU also has this immunity.
Sovereign immunity is not at issue re preemption. VCU is a state agency; 15.2-915 applies only to localities and their authorities and agents.
Yes. My point is, even being a state agency doesn't allow VCU to affect non-students/faculty. So even if CGH has immunity, and were granted operation by state law (as per other posts above mine), they still cannot ban firearms for Thundar.

I was pointing this out as supporting immunities irrelevance.
 

Mike

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simmonsjoe wrote:
My point is, even being a state agency doesn't allow VCU to affect non-students/faculty.
It is certainly within the power of VCU to create and enforce regulations and policies "affecting" people who are not students ot staff. A state agency may generally control and limit access to its property and limit conduct there and eject people they decide they do not want there - every court on the planet is going to uphold the right of a state college to do this. And a Fairfax Circuit Court has done so with refard to the lawsuit against the GMU gun carry ban reg.

We have an AG opinion opining essentially that when it comes to guns, state colleges exceed their statutory grant of power to make and enforce regulations banning all gun carry by non-students/staff even on the common grounds of the college generally held open to the public. That AG opinion is very good for us - leave a sleeping dog lie - neither the VCU nor the GMU college regulations make it a crime to carry guns anywhere - essentially these regulations simply establish the foundation to order you to vacate the campus; and GMU's regulation actually exempts the the common grounds of the college generally held open to the public.
 

simmonsjoe

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Mike wrote:
simmonsjoe wrote:
My point is, even being a state agency doesn't allow VCU to affect non-students/faculty.
It is certainly within the power of VCU to create and enforce regulations and policies "affecting" people who are not students ot staff. A state agency may generally control and limit access to its property and limit conduct there and eject people they decide they do not want there - every court on the planet is going to uphold the right of a state college to do this. And a Fairfax Circuit Court has done so with refard to the lawsuit against the GMU gun carry ban reg.

We have an AG opinion opining essentially that when it comes to guns, state colleges exceed their statutory grant of power to make and enforce regulations banning all gun carry by non-students/staff even on the common grounds of the college generally held open to the public. That AG opinion is very good for us - leave a sleeping dog lie - neither the VCU nor the GMU college regulations make it a crime to carry guns anywhere - essentially these regulations simply establish the foundation to order you to vacate the campus; and GMU's regulation actually exempts the the common grounds of the college generally held open to the public.
This was in relation to banning firearms and not general powers. The topic is about firearms being banned on public access land owned/operated by public authorities. The paragraph was about banning firearms, and was a response to a response by me about VCU banning firearms. My posts have agreed with you 100%. The VCU/GMU stuff, along with the AG's opinion, has been addressed to death in other threads, so I felt it was common knowledge and didn't require rehashing. I am supporting others claims that the ban is illegal in any general access area by a person with reason to be there by allaying other posts concern about the immunity because of the problems with the parks(using VCU, a well known case here). I will try to be more clear in the future to alert persons that my post are replies to the ongoing thread in which they are posted and therefor relevant only after you have read the thread. I'll try better to quote every post I'm referring to so people don't think I'm posting something in a thread for no apparent reason.

You do bring an interesting question though. Is the ER commonly open to the public? I thought there were laws saying you couldn't refuse anyone for treatment at an ER? If so, and your bringing a minor child in for care, wouldn't that extend to you? Mike your good with the legal stuff what do you think? (Assumption is Thundar's child is a minor)
 

Thundar

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simmonsjoe wrote:
You do bring an interesting question though. Is the ER commonly open to the public? I thought there were laws saying you couldn't refuse anyone for treatment at an ER? If so, and your bringing a minor child in for care, wouldn't that extend to you? Mike your good with the legal stuff what do you think? (Assumption is Thundar's child is a minor)
My son is 18, but the interesting question is still valid because my presence was still required. I was needed in the hospital admissions area because he still uses myinsuranceand there was information that I needed to give the hospital. I was needed in the emergency room because he was not coherent and they wanted a family member to assist in the treatment decisions.
 

Thundar

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To those of you who expressed concern for my son, thank you. He is recovering from the assault, though there is a plastic surgeon in his future.
 

peter nap

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Thundar wrote:
To those of you who expressed concern for my son, thank you. He is recovering from the assault, though there is a plastic surgeon in his future.
Great News!
 

Wolf_shadow

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Thundar wrote:
To those of you who expressed concern for my son, thank you. He is recovering from the assault, though there is a plastic surgeon in his future.
Glad to hear you son is recovering. My prayers are with your son and your family.
 

Grapeshot

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Thundar wrote:
To those of you who expressed concern for my son, thank you. He is recovering from the assault, though there is a plastic surgeon in his future.
Hope he is recovering both physically and emotionally.

At such time as would be appropriate would like to learn of the incident if possible.

Wish him Merry Christmas and a speedy recovery for us.

Yata hey
 

Mike

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simmonsjoe wrote:
I am supporting others claims that the ban is illegal in any general access area by a person with reason to be there by allaying other posts concern about the immunity because of the problems with the parks
There is no "immunity" issue relating to firearms preemption in parks or anywhere else.
 

marshaul

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how sleazy and manipulative... ''we do illegal things knowing we can get away with it because people are busy with sick family''

talk about adding insult to injury. i hope that sob isn't manipulated next time his family is sick (actually, no i don't).
 

simmonsjoe

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Mike wrote:
simmonsjoe wrote:
I am supporting others claims that the ban is illegal in any general access area by a person with reason to be there by allaying other posts concern about the immunity because of the problems with the parks
There is no "immunity" issue relating to firearms preemption in parks or anywhere else.
That is exactly the point. If you agree with me than address the people who brought up the parks and immunity and such, not me. I don't understand what you want from me. You seem to be arguing with me by agreeing with me and it is confusing.
 

simmonsjoe

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marshaul wrote:
how sleazy and manipulative... ''we do illegal things knowing we can get away with it because people are busy with sick family''

talk about adding insult to injury. i hope that sob isn't manipulated next time his family is sick (actually, no i don't).
Too many people will take any reason they can to have more power. Unfortunately this usually comes from an attitude that automatically says NO to everything. So if they don't know the policy/law about something they assume you can't do it. It is difficult sometimes when in authority to start off from a YES perspective.
 

Grapeshot

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So is anybody local taking them to task - attending a meeting and asking the question or forcing the issue?

A lot of talk about the problem, but where is this going?

Yata hey
 
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