Creation, true, false, or unsure?

[Mantioch]

No, the biblical creation story is false. Evolution, which is a proven fact, is completely opposite to the creation myth. If you would like to argue that a god(s) created evolution then feel free.

Are you referring to Darwin's Theory of Evolution?

"Sir Julian Huxley, one of the world's leading evolutionists, head of UNESCO, descendant of Thomas Huxley -- Darwin's bulldog -- said on a talk show, 'I suppose the reason we leaped at The Origin of Species was because the idea of God interfered with our sexual mores.' (Henry M. Morris, The Troubled Waters of Evolution, Creation-Life Publishers, 1974, p. 58)."

The above is the only reason Darwin's Theory exists. It wasn't scientific. It was to justify Godlessness, Eugenics (Hitler's favorite) and racism.

 

[OC for ME]

Asking where God came from implies that He did not exist, then he did. That implies time, but again, time is a construct of the universe and is not applicable to God. He just was.

Not saying that you must accept what I am saying. I am just illustrating the internal consistency of what I believe, not unlike string theorists do because their theories are entirely unprovable. They check them for internal consistency.

Says who? We or He?

Besides, "everybody" accepts that a big bang did occur, I provided the logical stuff to explain the "before it occurred" part.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Exactly. That's where I'm at. I still only see two options. An always existing intelligent God or everything from nothing. Am I missing a third option?

Maybe there is......wouldn't that be something. Something we never even conceived of. Wouldn't that be interesting, and if there is I imagine it is so simple, it escaped us.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Not "you" specifically. "You" in general. I am not arguing against the existence of god. I'm arguing against the validity of the bible. When most of it has been proven inaccurate through scientific evidence and discoveries.

Have you read Kicking the Sacred Cow? There's a section in there from an atheist point of view that explains many of the occurrences of the bible. Some way out there.

 

[eye95]

Now now play nice.

Wasn't it you that mentioned earlier faith plays a large part of your belief whether it is evolution or creation?

I have no faith in either concept because I logically conclude neither gives me satisfactory answers to a very basic question about the fundamental basis of either side the "he just was" argument for any gods or the it "just was" idea for the idea we all come from a singularity.

I see a great service being done for humanity by the striving for these answers from secular science and personal religious reflection.

I wasn't trying to come off as not nice. Just making a suggestion of a different tack since looking for proof will get us nowhere. I arrived at where I am, faith, through logic. Ironic, huh?

God made me a logical creature, so I used logic to find Him.

 

[bbMurphy]

Moses day

What was a day to Moses in Exodus 20:8-11 ?

Umm, 24 hours approximately just as I said earlier. Moses was a man here on Earth so therefore, his day would be measured in Earth days. The quotation again refers to the time span of the creation as dictated to puny man by God. To put it in more easily understood terms, what if God lived on Venus? A day on Venus lasts for 243 Earth days. So the creation, in this case, would have taken 1458 Earth days (243 * 6). But since God is everywhere and anywhere, how long is a day to Him? Nobody knows.

 

[SFCRetired]

1. Agreed that man did not evolve from a monkey. Fact: Man and chimpanzees share roughly 99% of their DNA. Conclusion: Common non-human ancestor?
2. "God created man in His own image." (Genesis 1:27) What is God's nature? God is, for all practical purposes, a spirit and not flesh and blood. Therefore it is likely that the Creation spoken of in Genesis was the endowment of Man with an immortal spirit.
3. Folks, it's called "belief" and "faith" for the very simple reason that, under the rules of either the legal or the scientific profession, none of this can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

For myself, I believe in God and just as firmly believe in the story of the Nazarene Carpenter. I try my very best to live my life by the teachings of that Carpenter.

 

[ADobbs1989]

None of it has so...

You're funny. Sad funny, but funny nonetheless.

Are you referring to Darwin's Theory of Evolution?

"Sir Julian Huxley, one of the world's leading evolutionists, head of UNESCO, descendant of Thomas Huxley -- Darwin's bulldog -- said on a talk show, 'I suppose the reason we leaped at The Origin of Species was because the idea of God interfered with our sexual mores.' (Henry M. Morris, The Troubled Waters of Evolution, Creation-Life Publishers, 1974, p. 58)."

The above is the only reason Darwin's Theory exists. It wasn't scientific. It was to justify Godlessness, Eugenics (Hitler's favorite) and racism.

The current Theory of Evolution isn't technically Darwins. Although he did get the ball rolling. If anyone did just a few hours of true scientific research on Evolution would have no issues at finding how it works perfectly everytime. There isn't a single fossil ever found that didn't go where it was supposed to according to the theory of evolution. All evidence points towards it being true, and as soon as evidence surfaces that disproves the theory, it will be changed or dropped altogether. Even almost ALL christian scientists will agree that evolution is true, they just attribute evolution to god where there non-religious don't.

 

[Mantioch]

The very interesting part about this is that the Bible never attempts to offer proof. It never pleads with you to believe. It does, however, say to have Faith. God knocks and you either open the door, or you do not. The choice is up to you - think of it as your right of refusal. For those who believe that nothing is truly right or wrong, one day all of us in this forum will know if we were right or wrong. The historical evidence has compelled me to take the approach of Faith. And one day, I'll know if I should have or not. But if I'm right, I'll be glad I did. And if I'm right, no matter how many arguments others have put up to the contrary, they will still be wrong. And, unfortunately, in my world that has an inescapable consequence. And if I'm wrong, I will still have lived a good life.

That is all.

 

[bbMurphy]

... But if I'm right, I'll be glad I did. And if I'm right, no matter how many arguments others have put up to the contrary, they will still be wrong. And, unfortunately, in my world that has an inescapable consequence. And if I'm wrong, I will still have lived a good life.

That is all.

+1

 

[ADobbs1989]

The very interesting part about this is that the Bible never attempts to offer proof. It never pleads with you to believe. It does, however, say to have Faith. God knocks and you either open the door, or you do not. The choice is up to you - think of it as your right of refusal. For those who believe that nothing is truly right or wrong, one day all of us in this forum will know if we were right or wrong. The historical evidence has compelled me to take the approach of Faith. And one day, I'll know if I should have or not. But if I'm right, I'll be glad I did. And if I'm right, no matter how many arguments others have put up to the contrary, they will still be wrong. And, unfortunately, in my world that has an inescapable consequence. And if I'm wrong, I will still have lived a good life.

That is all.

Don't forget about the other thousands of religions out there that ALL claim to be true, offer no evidence, but demand you have faith. Most of which comes with a punishment for non-belief. I stand that EVERYONE here is an Atheist to 99.99% of all possible gods, I'm just an Atheist to 100% of all possible gods. If were gonna play the odds on choosing 1/10,000 none of us have a very good chance at being the winner.

 

[OC for ME]

<snip> For myself, I believe in God and just as firmly believe in the story of the Nazarene Carpenter. I try my very best to live my life by the teachings of that Carpenter.

I prefer, a fisher of men. He wasn't a union carpenter.....so.....

 

[Mantioch]

Don't forget about the other thousands of religions out there that ALL claim to be true, offer no evidence, but demand you have faith. Most of which comes with a punishment for non-belief. I stand that EVERYONE here is an Atheist to 99.99% of all possible gods, I'm just an Atheist to 100% of all possible gods. If were gonna play the odds on choosing 1/10,000 none of us have a very good chance at being the winner.

I agree with you completely. Again, it is about Faith, not proof. The gods and profits of all other religions are in the grave. Mine is not.

Logically, an atheist has a 0% chance of avoiding punishment (P(A) = 0 in math parlance) if any religion is true. Not good odds.

Just thought of this - so I added:

This is kind of like one person saying Glock is better and someone else saying Sig is better, and yet another person saying they won't carry until someone proves one way or the other. Now, when attacked by an armed intruder, the two armed dudes will have some possibility of winning that fight. The guy who is waiting on proof - not so much. There, now we've made it gun relevant!

 

[eye95]

Says who? We or He?

Besides, "everybody" accepts that a big bang did occur, I provided the logical stuff to explain the "before it occurred" part.

Says logic. If God created the universe, then He is not a part of it. Time is a construct of that creation, therefore He is not bound by that time.

There could be time in His domain. We can't know right now. But, if time for Him were like time for us, that would be the greatest coincidence of all. The most likely explanation is that time, as we know it, does not exist for Him.

 

[eye95]

...This is kind of like one person saying Glock is better and someone else saying Sig is better, and yet another person saying they won't carry until someone proves one way or the other. Now, when attacked by an armed intruder, the two armed dudes will have some possibility of winning that fight. The guy who is waiting on proof - not so much. There, now we've made it gun relevant!

I love that analogy!

 

[Mantioch]

Says logic. If God created the universe, then He is not a part of it. Time is a construct of that creation, therefore He is not bound by that time.

There could be time in His domain. We can't know right now. But, if time for Him were like time for us, that would be the greatest coincidence of all. The most likely explanation is that time, as we know it, does not exist for Him.

+1 Basic physics accepts this. Time is absolutely a construct of our physical universe. Thus the term space-time, the perception of which can be altered by other physical attributes such as speed. This is also why God is omnipresent.

 

[Suckerspawn]

Umm, 24 hours approximately just as I said earlier. Moses was a man here on Earth so therefore, his day would be measured in Earth days. The quotation again refers to the time span of the creation as dictated to puny man by God. To put it in more easily understood terms, what if God lived on Venus? A day on Venus lasts for 243 Earth days. So the creation, in this case, would have taken 1458 Earth days (243 * 6). But since God is everywhere and anywhere, how long is a day to Him? Nobody knows.

How many earth days did Moses say it took for God for create the heavens and the Earth ?

 

[MKEgal]

Please use evidence to back up your opinion if you believe one way or the other.

There is no evidence for creationism, other than "look at the complexity!".
Evidence for evolution is throughout every scientific record... and actually, if you read Genesis, doesn't it say that things were brought into existance in order, an order which is suspiciously like the evolutionists say things happened?

But in the end, it comes down to "what do you believe?" and people who believe facts are not going to be swayed by opinion and stories, while people who believe opinion & stories are not going to believe facts.
Sounds suspiciously like the pro & anti-rights debate...

 

[ADobbs1989]

I agree with you completely. Again, it is about Faith, not proof. The gods and profits of all other religions are in the grave. Mine is not.

Logically, an atheist has a 0% chance of avoiding punishment (P(A) = 0 in math parlance) if any religion is true. Not good odds.

Just thought of this - so I added:

This is kind of like one person saying Glock is better and someone else saying Sig is better, and yet another person saying they won't carry until someone proves one way or the other. Now, when attacked by an armed intruder, the two armed dudes will have some possibility of winning that fight. The guy who is waiting on proof - not so much. There, now we've made it gun relevant!

I base my entire life off of what I can know to be true through evidence. I have no need for faith (at least not faith in the religious sense). I find it to be hypocritical to demand evidence in every aspect of my life EXCEPT when it comes to religion. In all honestly none of us have very good odds. The "one true god" could have been worshiped 10's of thousands of years ago and is no longer part of belief systems, OR the one true god could have not been discovered yet. WHAT IF only those who are Atheists are rewarded. If the real god hasn't been discovered yet, maybe he would reward those who haven't fallen to the temptation of worshiping a false god without evidence? I would rather live my life the best way I can, search for truth through evidence, and be wrong in the end. Rather than disregard my values of basing my actions on evidence just because it's popular and Might be right.

 

[MKEgal]

can something happen without intelligence?
... without intelligence, there can be no natural laws and then no rules of behavior or existence

Apples fall. Are they intelligent? Is the Earth intelligent, that it draws the apples to itself?

Moths in London during the industrial age changed from light grey to dark grey. Are moths intelligent, or did the genes for light grey coloration nearly go extinct because those moths showed up more on polluted trees, so the moths got eaten with more regularity than the moths with dark grey coloration.

The planets go around the sun. Are the planets intellegent, or are they responding to natural laws (gravity)?

I still only see two options. An always existing intelligent God or everything from nothing. Am I missing a third option?

A god which evolved from not-god. A god which started out not intelligent but evolved intelligence.

Folks, it's called "belief" and "faith" for the very simple reason that, under the rules of either the legal or the scientific profession, none of this can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

+1

The gods and profits of all other religions are in the grave.

An unintentional misspelling which actually has some truth in it.
(profit = benefit ; prophet = forteller)
The main benefit to religion is the promise of a wonderful afterlife for those who believe, so the profit is literally in the grave.