Culpeper shooting

[Citizen]

SNIP "There's someone in the parking lot of a church and I don't know what they're doing but they're just sitting there. Oh wait, it's a really elderly woman. Can you send the officer who shot that lady the other day. I just know he'll know what to do."

This touches on what I was thinking when I read the part about a call for a suspicious woman in a church parking lot.

What's the cop's RAS for a seizure in the first place? It apparently was not a traffic stop. And, she doesn't sound like a prostitute. So, what was the cop's RAS?

The Native American woodcarver killed in Washington state a while back, remember him? The government danced all around the fact that the cop had no RAS in the first place to detain the woodcarver. The government had to keep the focus on what happened during the encounter because if it came out there was no RAS for a seizure in the first place, then the defense of the cop would have fallen completely apart; and, the police could have been properly painted as trigger-happy cowboys setting themselves up as the law in those parts.

I find it highly suspicious that VSP and Culpeper PD has not given a legal basis for the seizure. Without RAS for a seizure, there is no authority to demand ID--see Brown v Texas where SCOTUS said cops must have genuine RAS before a stop-and-identify statute can apply.

So, what was the cop's RAS? And, more importantly, why hasn't the PD's investigating this announced the legality of the seizure in the first place? Do they really think everybody is so dumb they'll just assume the cop had authority in the first place?

And, lets not forget Commonwealth vs Christian where our Court of Appeals or Supreme Court said there is no right to resist an illegal detention. If this woman died ignoring a baseless and unlawful detention, the Christian court set her up for it. Her heirs cannot even claim she had the privilege of ignoring an unlawful detention, not a legal claim anyway.

 

[JoeSparky]

An examination of the drivers side door will determine if the window was partially raised when the glass broke or all the way up.

Two different indicators: Elevation of the window support mechanism to indicate partially raised or fully up. In my mind if the glass was fully raised when it was broken then there will be little to no broken glass within the door whereas if the window was 1/2 way up about 1/2 of the total broken glass WILL BE INSIDE THE DOOR (all the glass that was not above the lower edge of the window opening WILL BE INSIDE THE DOOR).

additional thoughts:

I wonder if there is an audio/video recording from the patrol car/officer of this stop and the exchange.

Not saying that the following or similar happened in this situation but a local PD to me recently fired an officer who was telling good looking female drivers that he would let them off from the supposed DUI charge if they exposed their chests to the officer. A security camera the officer was not aware of caught the episode after the officer had the woman move her car to a more secluded spot than where she initially stopped.

 

[sawah]

If the SP is reporting that she rolled up on the window on the officer's arm without examining said window then they are complicit in the cover up. You'd think, given the nature of the witnesses testimony and WABC's report that they'd have come out and said 'Examination of the window, presence of broken glass and the partial deployment of the mechanism that it is reasonable to conclude the window was partially up' (or the inverse).

(good catch on that above by TFred)

 

[sawah]

Forgive this rather long cut and paste. I'm putting it here as a reference, since sometimes news accounts go away. The primary reason is that some people are alleging that the witnesses story changed over time. No need to wade through it. At the end, though is a list of other illegitimate shootings in NOVa. worth a look (from a user's post on one of the sites). I've included links to the original articles from area newspapers online.

=======
http://www.wtop.com/?nid=41&sid=2740908
WASHINGTON - A Culpeper, Va. police officer shot and killed a 54-year-old woman after an altercation Thursday morning.
Virginia State Police say a Culpeper officer responded to a call reporting a suspicious person sitting in a Jeep Wrangler in a church parking lot on North East Street at about 10 a.m.
As the woman -- identified as 54-year-old Patricia Cook of Culpeper -- was retrieving her identification, police say she suddenly closed the driver's side window, trapped the officer's arm and began driving away.
Police say the officer was dragged along with the vehicle, and shots were fired after the woman did not obey the officer's commands to stop. The Jeep then wrecked in the 200 block of North East Street.
Cook died at the scene. An autopsy will be performed on her remains.
Town of Culpeper spokesman Wally Bunker says the circumstances of the shooting are being investigated by Virginia State Police, and the officer, a five-year veteran, has been put on administrative leave. Culpeper police and the Culpeper County Sheriff's Office also are assisting in the investigation.
===========
http://www2.starexponent.com/news/2012/feb/09/one-dead-shooting-n-east-st-ar-1676541/
The Virginia State Police have confirmed Patricia A. Cook, 54, of Culpeper as the person shot dead*in this morning's police altercation on North East Street.
Her remains have been transported to the Office of the Medical Examiner in Manassas for examination and autopsy.
According to the VSP, the officer became engaged in a physical altercation with Cook, driver of a Jeep Wrangler in the 300 block of North East Street. During the course of the altercation, the officer shot Cook.
No other details were available.
At*about 9:53 a.m. a town police officer was called to investigate the report of a suspicious vehicle in the parking lot of the former H & R Block building on North East Street — now the annex of Epiphany Catholic School.
According to Wally Bunker, spokesman for the Town of Culpeper, what happened next is not yet clear and the Virginia State Police are investigating the incident. Bunker said, per standard procedure, the officer involved in the accident has been placed on administrative leave.
According to witness Kris Buchele, who’s father owns a building directly behind the parking lot, the officer was talking to a person in a green late-model Jeep Wrangler when the driver began to roll up the window and pull away.
“The officer yelled ‘stop, stop or I’m going to shoot,’” Buchele recalled.
Buchele described the initial shot as “point blank” and said the officer then fired at least five more shots as the Jeep pulled out of the parking lot and onto North East Street.
The Jeep traveled up North East Street, past the intersection of East Spencer Street, and crashed into a telephone pole — where it came to rest.
Yellow tape was quickly placed, cordoning off the area as rescue squads responded to the vehicle. White sheets were quickly placed on the driver’s side of the vehicle as town police, Culpeper County Sheriff’s Office and Virginia State police converged on the scene.
Witness Adam Forster, who lives on North East Street, said he heard loud yelling “for about a minute,” before eight or nine shots were fired.
He said he saw the police officer run up the street on foot, after the Jeep and saw it crash into the utility pole.
Buchele described the person in the Jeep, Cook,*as having their hair pulled up in a bun.
As of 12:15 p.m. the scene was being cleared of pedestrians and the state police were continuing their investigation.
==============
http://www2.starexponent.com/news/2...oman-shot-dead-police-altercation-ar-1678540/
The Culpeper woman fatally shot by a local police officer Thursday morning had closed her driver's side window and was dragging the officer alongside her as she drove away, according to new information from the Virginia State Police.
Patricia A. Cook, 54, died at the scene of the incident on North East Street after several shots were fired, and she crashed her Jeep into a utility pole.
At about 9:53 a.m. Thursday, the local police officer, a five-year veteran, responded to the parking lot of the annex of Epiphany Catholic School for a report of a suspicious vehicle.
It was about 10 a.m. when the officer became engaged in a physical argument with Cook, driver of a Jeep Wrangler, according to the VSP, whose “Police Shooting Investigation Team” is leading the ongoing inquiry with assistance from Culpeper Town Police and Culpeper County Sheriff’s Office.
According to the VSP, while attempting to retrieve her identification, Cook suddenly closed her window trapping the officer's arm while she drove away.
Police said the officer repeatedly commanded Cook to stop but she refused.
This is the first incident ever in small-town Culpeper involving a fatal police shooting, according to town spokesman Wally Bunker.
Per standard procedure, the unnamed officer has been placed on administrative leave.
Cook’s remains were transported to the Office of the Medical Examiner in Manassas for examination and autopsy.
The fatal shooting shattered an otherwise beautiful sunny day in Culpeper where gun violence is relatively uncommon.
According to eyewitness Kris Buchele, whose father owns a building directly behind the school parking lot, the officer was talking to Cook in her Jeep, when she began to roll up the window and pull away. The witness said the officer’s arm was in the window as Cook was rolling it up.
“The officer yelled, ‘Stop, stop or I’m going to shoot,’” Buchele said.
Buchele described the initial shot as “point blank” and said the officer then fired at least five more shots as Cook pulled out of the parking lot and onto North East Street. The Jeep headed south, past the intersection with East Spencer Street, before crashing into a telephone pole.
Witness Adam Forster, who lives on North East Street, said he heard loud yelling “for about a minute,” before eight or nine shots were fired.
He said he saw the police officer run up the street on foot, after the Jeep, before it crashed.
By Thursday afternoon, the Culpeper rumor mill was running at full speed with everyone talking about the morning’s shooting.
The daylong closing of a portion of East Street, a heavily traveled alternate north-south route parallel to Main Street, caused heavier than usual traffic all over downtown with cars alternately crawling and at a standstill as the evening rush set in.
Yellow crime scene tape surrounded a five-block area on North East, blocking Davis to Piedmont streets to vehicular and pedestrian traffic for hours.
“I was shocked, very shocked,” said Culpeper native Shirley Holley, a Piedmont Street resident, standing in the East Spencer Street parking lot, directly behind where the Jeep crashed. “This is the kind of stuff you see on TV happening in D.C. and Richmond – too close to home.”
Cook’s vehicle was visible in between two houses fronting on East Street, a sheet only recently moved from the front of the Jeep.
“They just put the body in the body bag,” Holley said at 3:30 p.m. around which time local funeral services personnel were seen in the area. “I feel for the parents and the family.”
She hoped the truth of the matter would emerge.
“The only people that really knows what happened is the officer, the victim and God,” Holley said, adding, “I thought (the police) were supposed to protect and serve.”
A block away on East Street, a small crowd of onlookers gathered on the front lawn of St. Stephen’s Episcopal Church, leaning over the metal fence for a closer look at the investigation. One man had binoculars.
Up the street in TASTE Oil Vinegar Spice at East and East Davis streets, shop owner Jan Davis sighed when asked about the incident.
“We heard pop, pop, pop, pop, pop,” she said of she and her husband, George Farrar, who were both in the store when the shooting happened.
“It was five or six shots,” Farrar said.
At first they didn’t know what it was, initially attributing it to ongoing construction in the area. Several East Street buildings sustained damage in the Aug. 23 earthquake, and are undergoing repairs.
“It was like 10 after 10 when we heard the shots. If it had been any other time than 10 o’clock on a Thursday morning we would have been more serious,” said Davis who once lived in downtown Philadelphia. “It’s just sad. I feel so bad for the policeman and for the family (of Cook). This is such a sweet town. Am I afraid? No.”
Over at Epiphany Catholic, children and parents milled about after school, yellow police tape and police activity visible from less than a block away.
“We are good,” said principal Wendy Murphy, noticeably anxious following the day’s events. “Everything is business as usual.”
She said all of the schoolchildren remained safe at all times during the shooting incident.
“All of the teachers handled everything in an entirely appropriate manner,” Murphy said, “and the police responded immediately.”
Culpeper Mayor Chip Coleman was at the police station on Old Brandy Road when the incident occurred having just sworn in two new officers at 10 a.m.
“Everyone was joking and laughing,” he said as he left the station, adding then, “Guys went flying past me on Piedmont (Street).”
Coleman at first thought it was a car wreck. He noted the situation is a tough one all around, and said it was good that the state police were doing the investigation. Coleman said he wanted to make sure all the information and facts about the incident are out in the open.
The last fatal shooting in Culpeper occurred in October. Patricia Adams, 31, of Culpeper was killed in a domestic incident in her home on Willis Lane.
======

January 2006 - A fairfax county police SWAT team serving a search warrant on Dr. Salvatore Culosi Jr , who was unarmed and suspected of gambling on sporting events, and without provocation, was shot by a police officer whose gun discharged striking Culosi in the chest killing him.*
*
Fairfax County prosecutors declined to press charges against the officer despite the fact that tests found no defect in the officer's gun.*
*
February 2008 - Ashley McIntosh, a 32-year old Fairfax County teacher's aide, was killed in a preventable accident involving herself and a Fairfax County police officer. The officer, traveling at a high rate of speed during one of the area's worst ice storms, in rush hour traffic, drove through a red light intersection with no siren engaged to warn the public of her approach.*
*
The officer was never charged, though in January 2010, in an unprecedented action, the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors agreed to pay $1.5 million to the family of McIntosh.*
*
December 2008 - Unarmed Brook Hailu Beshah was shot and killed by three Fairfax County Police Officers. He was 5’ 4” tall and weighted just 130 lbs. His parents state that their son was fatally shot multiple times from the back side of his body including his head. The shooting occurred in the middle of a street running through a residential neighborhood. It wa alleged by police that Hailu was fleeing a Bank Robbery when he was shot and killed. His parents have many unanswered questions about their son’s death and the alleged bank robbery. Unfortunately, the Fairfax County Police have refused to meet with the family, or to answer questions about the killing for over three years.*
*
November 2009 - A Fairfax County police officer shot and killed unarmed David A. Masters who allegedly had taken flowers from a roadside business on Richmond Highway in the Mount Vernon District of Fairfax County.*
*
Masters, a 52-year old former Army Green Baret, who suffered from a bipolar disorder, had no history of violence, nor did he own a gun. *
The police department has refused to identify the officer responsible for the killing. The county's chief prosecutor has cleared the officer of criminal wrongdoing.*
*
The FBI is investigating this shooting death under the Civil Rights Act.*
*
February 2010 - A Fairfax County Police SWAT Team responded to the Herndon, Virginia home of 25-year old Ian C. Smith who was having a psychotic episode and was known to the police as being mentally ill, was shot multiple times and has remained hospitalized since the shooting.

 

[ChinChin]

So in a nutshell, she was murdered for contempt of cop.

This one should get interesting.

 

[peter nap]

Forgive this rather long cut and paste. I'm putting it here as a reference, since sometimes news accounts go away. The primary reason is that some people are alleging that the witnesses story changed over time. No need to wade through it. At the end, though is a list of other illegitimate shootings in NOVa. worth a look (from a user's post on one of the sites). I've included links to the original articles from area newspapers online.

.

Old News Sawah!

Bob Horan was the Commonwealths Attorney in Fairfax until he thankfully died and I'm certain is toasting marshmallows.

He had the undisputed title of NEVER prosecuting a Police Officer for shooting someone. One case was so apparent that even though the Officer was completely exonerated, the Board of Supervisors paid the family 1.5 million in compensation.

When a Hanover Deputy murdered a drunk crawling toward him, the residents insisted he be prosecuted... Hanover brought Horan in as a special prosecutor who of course, refused to prosecute.

Apparently Horan's successor learned well. Nothing seems to have changed.

 

[Marco]

To be fair, I'll wait for the final report to exonerate the officer before I say there's a cover up.

If the evidence and the witness statements don't match what the officer is saying and infact disprove his account and the officer can't give a valid verifible reason for the non consental encounter I'd like to see how they justify making this a righteous shot.

Now, if they can show that the witness's remembered wrong or has a reason for lying.
Or if they give the officer's testimony more weight that the witness's.
Or if the evidence is lost.
Or they can prove this middle aged woman was up to no good in the church parking lot.
I'll believe it is good shot. (sarcasm)

 

[Citizen]

What Was the Officer's RAS to Seize Her In the First Place

What was the cop's RAS in order to temporarily detain Patricia Cook? No RAS = no authority to detain = no authority to reach into the car (even if he actually did) = no authority to shoot.


(Don't lose sight of this question, fellas. Paste it all over the comments sections of on-line newspapers and anywhere else you encounter this story. Police and prosecutor can fog up the issue of whether the officer was in danger, whether his arm was in the car or not, etc, etc, etc. If they can create uncertainty, they can prevent conviction of the cop. But, if there was no RAS, all bets are off and the cop is highly exposed; thus, just keep hammering this question: )


What was the cop's RAS?

 

[sawah]

What was the cop's RAS in order to temporarily detain Patricia Cook? No RAS = no authority to detain = no authority to reach into the car (even if he actually did) = no authority to shoot.


(Don't lose sight of this question, fellas. Paste it all over the comments sections of on-line newspapers and anywhere else you encounter this story. Police and prosecutor can fog up the issue of whether the officer was in danger, whether his arm was in the car or not, etc, etc, etc. If they can create uncertainty, they can prevent conviction of the cop. But, if there was no RAS, all bets are off and the cop is highly exposed; thus, just keep hammering this question: )


What was the cop's RAS?

OK...wait, you mean you can't shoot someone nine times for sassing you? (over the top but someone's gotta keep this alive)

 

[peter nap]

OK...wait, you mean you can't shoot someone nine times for sassing you? (over the top but someone's gotta keep this alive)

Of course you can't.

Simple sassing, two shots, three if using a .40 (Girly Gun:lol.
Gotta have standards or they're just badge barbarians!

 

[user]

Ah but the use of the masculine gender for the pronoun is correct when the sex of the individual is unknown (classic English). So he would no have that argument.

Pet grammatical peeve alert!!!

Actually, where the antecedant is undefined as to gender, then the neuter gender pronoun, "he" is appropriate. The problem is that people get confused because it's the same in form as the masculine pronoun. But what defines the grammatical gender is use, not form. It drives me nuts when someone says, "one who ... she...", and I have to go backtracking because I've missed the mention of the specific female person they're making reference to, only to find that it's a grammatically political correctness.

 

[NightmareSHANIQUA]

Pet grammatical peeve alert!!!

Actually, where the antecedant is undefined as to gender, then the neuter gender pronoun, "he" is appropriate. The problem is that people get confused because it's the same in form as the masculine pronoun. But what defines the grammatical gender is use, not form. It drives me nuts when someone says, "one who ... she...", and I have to go backtracking because I've missed the mention of the specific female person they're making reference to, only to find that it's a grammatically political correctness.

Back to the main thread: What I want to know is what this cop did to frighten the woman so much that she felt she had to hit the gas to get away from him. Was he already brandishing (holding, pointing, or brandishing the gun in such a way as to cause fear in the mind of the victim)? Or had he done something else to make her think her life was in danger?

My thinking is that a cop who would shoot a motorist for failure to stay put is a cop who would have already done something crazy. Why did he have his hand inside the window or on the door handle anyway? Clearly an assault and battery.

Assuming, of course, that it was a traffic stop and that he didn't have an active felony warrant on the woman.

Im gonna have to respectfully disagree with you here sir.

Until I hear the entire story, from the officer, versus the witness testimony, and VSP's conclusion of the investigation, Im going to reserve judgement. We can all sit here and arm chair quarter back this thing until be are blue in the face and have beaten the horse until there is nothing more then wet chunks of bone going into the floor board.

I am NOT going to say the officer did anything wrong, nor am I going to say he was justified until all the facts have come out. Given what I have read over the past two pages:
-Arm stuck in window, beginning to drag a obvious LEO--FELONY, JUSTIFIED SHOOT
-Hand on handle trying to open door, while driver is driving away... Suspicious, however these witnesses do not have the same vantage as the officer. Also, their own biases against law enforcement could be coming forward. (Not everyone has the warm and fuzzies about LEO in this state)

Ultimately, this shooting will come down to the officer's side of the story and the official report from VSP. Just because a witness said the arm was not trapped in a window does NOT mean it was true. In moments of high stress (like watching a person being shot to death), the mind has a tendency to retract from the violence of the moment, called statement of fact. It has been seen by passengers and drivers in traffic collisions. (http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/recovering-disasters.aspx)

Shock and denial are typical responses to a traumatic event, such as this shooting. Majority of the general public has not trained themselves, unlike many of us, to commit to lethal force given the appropriate circumstances. Given that, the witnessing of a lethal force situation might be manipulated by the mind to see or believe something different than what actually happened. Witness testimony is taken into account during a court trial, it is not gospel for reasons like this.


Lets all stop LEO critisizing until we all know exactly what happened. If that officer was dragged down the street to his death, we would all not give but two seconds notice to it. However, because a citizen has died in a questionable incident, we are all so quick to point the fingers.

 

[SouthernBoy]

Pet grammatical peeve alert!!!

Actually, where the antecedant is undefined as to gender, then the neuter gender pronoun, "he" is appropriate. The problem is that people get confused because it's the same in form as the masculine pronoun. But what defines the grammatical gender is use, not form. It drives me nuts when someone says, "one who ... she...", and I have to go backtracking because I've missed the mention of the specific female person they're making reference to, only to find that it's a grammatically political correctness.

Grammatical diversion:

One of the things that drives me nuts is "he/she" when the sex is unknown. I once refused to change my "he" usage to that of "he/she" in a technical document I wrote because it was not proper English. I compromised by using "[the] user" (sorry, this was years before I knew you).


As to the subject at hand, I also cannot seem to get the details of this encounter out of my mind either.... or should I say lack of or confused details? So much just does not click. There are so many questions that keep popping up. And why on earth did this officer feel so threatened that he opened fire on this woman? A 54 year old married lady who appears on the surface to be pretty much your average 54 year old woman. I just doesn't make any sense to me.

If her intention was to trap his arm, a crank operated window is not the best tool to have. Even a powered window does not close quickly. But assuming his arm was trapped and her intention was to harm him or get away, why did she move away slowly? Slow enough for him to apparently fire his first shot after having said stop or I'll shoot which takes time to say and if she floored it, his shot would have been at a rather radical glancing entrance and not nearly dead on into the window.

Yes by all means, the window operating components need to be examined but who's to say they weren't tampered with before any such examination, assuming one was made. This thing just doesn't compute. And God do I hope the state police are not complacent or worse party to any sort of cover-up should one arise.

 

[NightmareSHANIQUA]

Grammatical diversion:

One of the things that drives me nuts is "he/she" when the sex is unknown. I once refused to change my "he" usage to that of "he/she" in a technical document I wrote because it was not proper English. I compromised by using "[the] user" (sorry, this was years before I knew you).


As to the subject at hand, I also cannot seem to get the details of this encounter out of my mind either.... or should I say lack of or confused details? So much just does not click. There are so many questions that keep popping up. And why on earth did this officer feel so threatened that he opened fire on this woman? A 54 year old married lady who appears on the surface to be pretty much your average 54 year old woman. I just doesn't make any sense to me.

If her intention was to trap his arm, a crank operated window is not the best tool to have. Even a powered window does not close quickly. But assuming his arm was trapped and her intention was to harm him or get away, why did she move away slowly? Slow enough for him to apparently fire his first shot after having said stop or I'll shoot which takes time to say and if she floored it, his shot would have been at a rather radical glancing entrance and not nearly dead on into the window.

Yes by all means, the window operating components need to be examined but who's to say they weren't tampered with before any such examination, assuming one was made. This thing just doesn't compute. And God do I hope the state police are not complacent or worse party to any sort of cover-up should one arise.

Just to offer another opinion, officers have been attacked with less than three seconds to perceive the threat and justify what is the reasonable amount of force to stop the threat. Ive seen videos of officers being attacked by a haymaker, knife, and firearms. This officer might have given the "suspect"* a bit more leeway than the typical ******** on the street because she was a 54yof of the town. However, this does not change the fact the she can kill just as much as the 20yom MS13 member he may encounter next.

*"Suspect" in quotes because of reserved judgement until the case is properly concluded.

 

[ncwabbit]

either way, their (da english isa good no?) death penalty for speeding is kinda harsh...

wabbit

 

[TFred]

Ultimately, this shooting will come down to the officer's side of the story and the official report from VSP. Just because a witness said the arm was not trapped in a window does NOT mean it was true. In moments of high stress (like watching a person being shot to death), the mind has a tendency to retract from the violence of the moment, called statement of fact. It has been seen by passengers and drivers in traffic collisions. (http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/recovering-disasters.aspx)

Shock and denial are typical responses to a traumatic event, such as this shooting. Majority of the general public has not trained themselves, unlike many of us, to commit to lethal force given the appropriate circumstances. Given that, the witnessing of a lethal force situation might be manipulated by the mind to see or believe something different than what actually happened. Witness testimony is taken into account during a court trial, it is not gospel for reasons like this.


Lets all stop LEO critisizing until we all know exactly what happened. If that officer was dragged down the street to his death, we would all not give but two seconds notice to it. However, because a citizen has died in a questionable incident, we are all so quick to point the fingers.

The only problem with your point here is that you assume the officer is a neutral reporter of fact. That is clearly not the case. Credible or not, an eyewitness has clearly and consistently (in face of much press coverage which bring it to public light) provided a story that was then later contradicted by the VSP initial report.

If the eyewitness report is true, then this LEO has every motive in the world to lie about the fact to keep his hind-parts out of jail or worse.

I acknowledge that we don't know for sure, and we may never know for sure what happened. But you can't assume ANYONE is telling the truth, just because they are talking.

I'll go so far as to add this: If *I* were an eyewitness whose first reported facts as I saw them were later directly contradicted by the VSP, and the stakes are such that my story puts a cop in jail, and the VSP story puts a cop back on the street... I would make VERY SURE that I was never alone until this all gets sorted out. Talk about someone who needs to carry a voice recorder 24/7!!!

TFred

 

[NightmareSHANIQUA]

The only problem with your point here is that you assume the officer is a neutral reporter of fact. That is clearly not the case. Credible or not, an eyewitness has clearly and consistently (in face of much press coverage which bring it to public light) provided a story that was then later contradicted by the VSP initial report.

If the eyewitness report is true, then this LEO has every motive in the world to lie about the fact to keep his hind-parts out of jail or worse.

I acknowledge that we don't know for sure, and we may never know for sure what happened. But you can't assume ANYONE is telling the truth, just because they are talking.


TFred

But the problem is, I am merely presenting a point that has yet to be mentioned here on the boards... a PRO LEO opinion. If I were this guy, and someone was about to drag me down the road, you can bet your life knowing that the person driving that car is not going to leave that situation unscathed.

I always respect your point TFred, seriously, you have always been a level commentator. However, I find the opinion about the officer is the liar assumption, rather than the eye witness' credibility being called into a question, well... a bit questionable. Like I stated before, there are a LOT of variables in this case. Just because he is a LEO, does not mean that he is incapable of telling the truth.

 

[TFred]

But the problem is, I am merely presenting a point that has yet to be mentioned here on the boards... a PRO LEO opinion. If I were this guy, and someone was about to drag me down the road, you can bet your life knowing that the person driving that car is not going to leave that situation unscathed.

I always respect your point TFred, seriously, you have always been a level commentator. However, I find the opinion about the officer is the liar assumption, rather than the eye witness' credibility being called into a question, well... a bit questionable. Like I stated before, there are a LOT of variables in this case. Just because he is a LEO, does not mean that he is incapable of telling the truth.

I'm not saying he is lying, just that he may have a motive to do so, which must not be discounted. The two versions that are "out there" at this time would seem to say that either the LEO or the eyewitness is lying. I don't know of any obvious reason that the eyewitness would lie, he is at no risk either way, but there is obvious motive for the LEO to lie if it happened as the eyewitness indicated.

I would very much like it if we could count on LEOs to always be honest. We had a really long thread a while back that tried to define the difference between lying and not telling the truth to a suspect. I personally was never able to figure out the difference, but we were all assured there was a difference, and a huge one at that.

And of course, I have personal experience, being the victim of a deputy who lied under oath in front of a judge in a traffic matter. If he was willing to lie to convince a judge that I was following too closely (with no tangible proof, like an accident), what would he (and others by implication) be willing to do to keep themselves out of jail? The deputy in my case probably thought nothing of it, it's just a ticket... but reputations are built by the totality of one's behavior, not just the "big" things.

I've really tried to keep an open mind. I've tried to present statements in the context of their source, including the identification of potential weaknesses in reliability. I'm not playing favorites, or at least I am trying hard not to.

And thank you for your compliment, I sincerely appreciate that! For the most part, we don't know each other personally here, so the integrity of one's posting tendencies goes a long way.

TFred

 

[JoeSparky]

Pet grammatical peeve alert!!!

Actually, where the antecedant is undefined as to gender, then the neuter gender pronoun, "he" is appropriate. The problem is that people get confused because it's the same in form as the masculine pronoun. But what defines the grammatical gender is use, not form. It drives me nuts when someone says, "one who ... she...", and I have to go backtracking because I've missed the mention of the specific female person they're making reference to, only to find that it's a grammatically political correctness.

Back to the main thread: What I want to know is what this cop did to frighten the woman so much that she felt she had to hit the gas to get away from him. Was he already brandishing (holding, pointing, or brandishing the gun in such a way as to cause fear in the mind of the victim)? Or had he done something else to make her think her life was in danger?

My thinking is that a cop who would shoot a motorist for failure to stay put is a cop who would have already done something crazy. Why did he have his hand inside the window or on the door handle anyway? Clearly an assault and battery.

Assuming, of course, that it was a traffic stop and that he didn't have an active felony warrant on the woman.

Or did the throttle get push as a spasm following getting shot in the face/ head just as the window was rolled up?

 

[Jim675]

What traffic law did she violate on private property?
Or was there a citizen complaint that drew police? (tape!)
Is there bruising on the officer's arm from being dragged?
Are the sides of his shoes scuffed?
Is the shelf that the window glass sits in at the top of its travel (prior to being adjusted by fellow officers)?
What was the topic of the loud argument prior?
Why was the officer a participant in a yelling contest?

Any one out there have manual windows? Let a grown man put his weight on the top of the glass. Attempt to roll it up. Report.

Sounds as if the officer did not like the ending of a consensual stop.