Culpeper shooting

[user]

I'm not making any prejudgments, either, which is why I cited both scenarios in what I said earlier (hand on handle, hand inside window). I have no personal knowledge of the facts, but I do have a couple of questions, assuming the cop's point of view: 1) what was his hand doing inside the window, and 2) how is it he got his hand out so quickly? No one said that he was actually dragged.

He has not said that he was handing a clipboard to the woman to sign a summons, or that he was getting it back (never seen a cop stick his hand inside the window to do that, by the way, they don't let go of the clipboard). He didn't say he was reaching inside the car to receive the license and registration (what happened to those, by the way?).

The Virginia State Police is nowhere near the professional organization it was when I was young. However, it's still one of the best in the world, and I think it speaks well of everyone involved that they're investigating.

 

[SouthernBoy]

Just to offer another opinion, officers have been attacked with less than three seconds to perceive the threat and justify what is the reasonable amount of force to stop the threat. Ive seen videos of officers being attacked by a haymaker, knife, and firearms. This officer might have given the "suspect"* a bit more leeway than the typical ******** on the street because she was a 54yof of the town. However, this does not change the fact the she can kill just as much as the 20yom MS13 member he may encounter next.

*"Suspect" in quotes because of reserved judgement until the case is properly concluded.

I'm trying my damnedest to stay reasonably neutral and objective with this but I do admit that it is hard to do so. I really do want to believe that there was a valid and legal reason for the officer's actions but frankly it's hard to believe such in the face of what has been let out so far. One thing that has not come out yet is whether or not the officer's in car camera was recording any of the audio and hopefully video of this incident. It would also be helpful to know whatever sort of call was made to the police to cause an officer to show up in the first place.

I really would hate to see the Culpeper police department and the Virginia State Police tainted by all of this. They do have an obligation to the public to come forth with an honest assessment of the incident. I suppose we'll see... at least I hope we will.

 

[sawah]

IMO, the outcome will be that we will not be allowed to know the details (where was the window shelf, where were the officer's injuries, where was the wallet found?) and it will go to a closed grand jury who may recommend trial but the prosecutor will not proceed. The city will settle out of court for approximately 1.5M in a civil settlement for wrongful death.

Ask yourself when does a man's arm get caught in a window most often? A car jacking attempt, not in a move to receive a proffered license and registration.

 

[marshaul]

But the problem is, I am merely presenting a point that has yet to be mentioned here on the boards... a PRO LEO opinion.

Your problem is that you're a flagrant apologist.

A 54-year-old woman as deadly as a 20-year-old MS gang member? While driving away in her Jeep? What have you been smoking?

A little deduction and basic application of Occam's razor should make it pretty clear what happened here, more or less.

Officer approaches car. Demands ID, and in doing so is threatening or abusive (not at all uncommon). The woman, having had no encounters with the police in over 30 years, and fully expecting the police to be agents of service and protection, is shocked and confused -- she doesn't know what to do, she only knows that she's a victim of aggression from a source she never anticipated. So, she rolls up her window, and drives off. She probably imagines it will all be sorted out if she can just talk to any other cop at all. So, she attempts to get away. When the first shot is fired, she realizes it's become life-or-death. She doesn't know why all this happened, but she knows she's been assaulted and shot at. So, she continues in her attempt to flee.

Obviously I've made up the details, but the general thrust of my analysis makes infinitely more sense than the BS story being peddled by the state. A 54-year-old woman traps an officer's arm with a crank window? This is so obviously, patently implausible that it's clearly a fabrication. Therefore, a lie and a cover up. Therefore, the officer is almost certainly culpable for murder.

The only way to see the situation more charitably is to apply a bias in favor of the police -- a bias wholly unjustified at this point in time. Remove any references to "cop" (i.e. apply objective analysis) in the original story, and nobody would question my interpretation of events.

The simple fact that there are eyewitness accounts contrary to the officer's story, and yet the story is now being reported as unequivocal regarding the dragging of the officer, is all but proof in my eyes that this is a cover up. Objectivity requires recognizing both accounts (note that I recognize both accounts, I merely discount one as absurd on its face).

 

[peter nap]

Your problem is that you're a flagrant apologist.

A 54-year-old woman as deadly as a 20-year-old MS gang member? While driving away in her Jeep? What have you been smoking?

I just can't get over how enjoyable you are now that you shook all those Kali Kooties off Marshaul!

 

[sawah]

Your problem is that you're a flagrant apologist.

A 54-year-old woman as deadly as a 20-year-old MS gang member? While driving away in her Jeep? What have you been smoking?

The value of such an opinion is that it shows us just how bizarrely the event might be viewed by those with an agenda. We might think that it would be impossible to cover up such a flagrant abuse of police powers. But all it would take would be a closed investigation and some tweaking of the evidence and some impugning of the witness who told a conflicting story.

 

[marshaul]

I just can't get over how enjoyable you are now that you shook all those Kali Kooties off Marshaul!

Thanks. You guys always make me feel warm 'n fuzzy inside. :lol:

I was itchin' for years before I came back anyway. Those cooties get all up under your skin!

 

[2a4all]

I read one of the news acccounts referenced in this thread, and was surprised at the number of comments that basically said "If she had only acquiesced to the officer's demands, she'd still be alive...".

I have to think that a similar percentage of like minded individuals would be in a jury pool (grand & petit). The prosecutor wouldn't want them, the defense would (if the officer were charged), and there'd be too many to preemptively challenge all of them. In a civil matter, the plaintiff wouldn't want them, the defense would.

These same people also vote in or out the elected officials who condone or object to such LE conduct. Will they view this travesty as an infringement of their own civil liberties? Or will they continue to regard the LEOs as their friends?

How many municipalities require that their citizens feel safe because of their police department's policies and actions as opposed to feeling apprehensive about them? And who makes this judgement?

 

[DocWalker]

Im gonna have to respectfully disagree with you here sir.

Until I hear the entire story, from the officer, versus the witness testimony, and VSP's conclusion of the investigation, Im going to reserve judgement. We can all sit here and arm chair quarter back this thing until be are blue in the face and have beaten the horse until there is nothing more then wet chunks of bone going into the floor board.

I am NOT going to say the officer did anything wrong, nor am I going to say he was justified until all the facts have come out. Given what I have read over the past two pages:
-Arm stuck in window, beginning to drag a obvious LEO--FELONY, JUSTIFIED SHOOT
-Hand on handle trying to open door, while driver is driving away... Suspicious, however these witnesses do not have the same vantage as the officer. Also, their own biases against law enforcement could be coming forward. (Not everyone has the warm and fuzzies about LEO in this state)

Ultimately, this shooting will come down to the officer's side of the story and the official report from VSP. Just because a witness said the arm was not trapped in a window does NOT mean it was true. In moments of high stress (like watching a person being shot to death), the mind has a tendency to retract from the violence of the moment, called statement of fact. It has been seen by passengers and drivers in traffic collisions. (http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/recovering-disasters.aspx)

Shock and denial are typical responses to a traumatic event, such as this shooting. Majority of the general public has not trained themselves, unlike many of us, to commit to lethal force given the appropriate circumstances. Given that, the witnessing of a lethal force situation might be manipulated by the mind to see or believe something different than what actually happened. Witness testimony is taken into account during a court trial, it is not gospel for reasons like this.


Lets all stop LEO critisizing until we all know exactly what happened. If that officer was dragged down the street to his death, we would all not give but two seconds notice to it. However, because a citizen has died in a questionable incident, we are all so quick to point the fingers.

Not LEO bashing but if his (third) arm was caught in the door then he could have broke the window to free himself with his weapon. Why shoot the driver then shoot 5-6 more times from the street as the danger was over. It smells of a cover-up and I can tell all cops will start circling the wagons on this one. There should be a citizen panel investigating this an not another group of cops that wouldn't want to see their brother in blue get into trouble. I was just on a jury last year that a deputy ruffed up an old lady using every trick they teach you at the academy, yes I went. He was way out of line and she was being charge with assaulting a Police Officer, Resisting, and other charges. She was found NOT-Guilty on all charges; the jury was pissed we couldn't have found him guilty of assult and battery.

 

[Herr Heckler Koch]

...There should be a citizen panel investigating this an not another group of cops that wouldn't want to see their brother in blue get into trouble. ...

Every community should - must - have an independent citizens review board if only to serve as proxy for larger community - police relations

 

[marshaul]

Every community should - must - have an independent citizens review board if only to serve as proxy for larger community - police relations

I think every OIS should be subject to mandatory review by a citizen oversight board, the members of which ought to be selected as a jury but with a highly limited voir dire process. And the board ought to consist of a new panel for each and every incident.

the jury was pissed we couldn't have found him guilty of assult and battery.

A prime example why prosecution for such crimes ought to be directed by the victims (i.e. the people). A government attorney has too great a conflict of interest to be trusted with this responsibility, and will shirk from it where the citizenry will not.

Our government of the people has turned into a government of... the government. It caters to its interests while ours are left to rot.

 

[DocWalker]

I think every OIS should be subject to mandatory review by a citizen oversight board, the members of which ought to be selected as a jury but with a highly limited voir dire process. And the board ought to consist of a new panel for each and every incident.

You know they won't like your suggestion. They find it harder to run a police state with the citizens watching and actually paying attention to their activities. Nothing to see here, this doesn't concern you.....when we want you we will come for you.

 

[sawah]

teach you at the academy...

Not to get you too far off track, but pray tell, what are these tricks they teach you at the Academy?

 

[DocWalker]

Not to get you too far off track, but pray tell, what are these tricks they teach you at the Academy?

Different holds, take downs, and ways to increase the pain level to obtain compliance from someone.

How to hold a suspects hand, pin their thumb to their wrist. It gives the officer leverage and if you put pressure on you can creat some pain without leaving marks. It also helps with cuffing, at least that is the excuse you will hear.

Knee to the mid back after getting someone on the ground. It puts a subject at a disadvantage if they try to get up or run, it also when properly used can create compliance by creating pain.

Twisting arm and putting pressure on the shoulder while holding the wrist with thumb locked. Makes it hard if not impossiable for the suspect to move, run, or do anything else. It also creates a lot of pain.

I spent 23 years in the military and didn't learn half of this until I became a corrections officer. I didn't care for working in a Maximum Security Prison so I went back into heathcare.

These are just a few of the holds we are taught to make someone compliant.

 

[Repeater]

Pro-L.E.O. != Pro-Fact

But the problem is, I am merely presenting a point that has yet to be mentioned here on the boards... a PRO LEO opinion.

I couldn't care less about any PRO-LEO opinion; I do care about the facts.

Therefore, I am PRO-FACT.

 

[Repeater]

Back to the main thread: What I want to know is what this cop did to frighten the woman so much that she felt she had to hit the gas to get away from him. Was he already brandishing (holding, pointing, or brandishing the gun in such a way as to cause fear in the mind of the victim)? Or had he done something else to make her think her life was in danger?

This is a critical point. This was literally a church-going woman, so she was not someone who was anti-social. I have to wonder if the LEO did something "overt" (get it?) that triggered the victim's survival instinct, and she chose "flight" over "fight" -- that should never subject a non-threatening person to the Death Penalty.

Will we the people ever learn the Truth?

 

[wylde007]

Different holds, take downs, and ways to increase the pain level to obtain compliance from someone.

My cousin (a VB cop) used to demonstrate some of these techniques on his younger brother (not a cop) at family gatherings.

The cop members of the family always thought it was pretty d**ned hilarious. I always thought it was disgusting.

 

[mk4]

i couldn't care less about any pro-leo opinion; i do care about the facts.

Therefore, i am pro-fact.

exactly!

 

[Repeater]

Police, witness differ on shooting

Geez, read this:

Police, witness differ on shooting

The Virginia State Police account of the circumstances surrounding the shooting of a Culpeper woman by a town police officer differs dramatically from that of an eyewitness to the Thursday morning incident.

...

However, Kris Buchele, who viewed the entire incident from the upstairs window in an adjoining house where he was working, tells a different story.

Buchele, who is a painting contractor, said he was working in an upstairs room when he heard loud shouting, which prompted him to go to one of the large windows in the older home.

“The cop had his gun out and his other hand on the door handle like he was trying to open it,” Buchele told The Free Lance–Star less than two hours after the shooting. “The car started moving and he said, ‘Stop or I’ll shoot!’ Just as the woman rolled the window up, the cop shot. I saw the window bust out.”

In an interview with WRC–TV Friday, Buchele twice repeated his assertion that the officer’s arm was not caught in the window when the car started moving.

That statement directly contradicts the state police assertion that the officer was being dragged and was in fear of his life when he fired his service weapon.

Also, some of the comments are scary. Not complying with the officer's orders. "I bet you are the type that also thinks cops should shoot a person in the leg or arm and not the chest."

Good grief.

 

[user]

Well, as the prosecutors always tell the juries, believe the word of the independent eye-witness over the defendant who committed the crime; the objective witness is the only person with personal knowledge of the facts, who has absolutely no reason to lie about what happened.

I would like to know more about where the witness was, though, relative to the position and path of the vehicle - for example, was he in a position to actually see that the cop's hand was on the door handle, or was that an inference? And, was his window open such that he could clearly hear what was said outside?

One reason the cops ought to be careful about this kind of thing (and to do a full, objective, and proper investigation with criminal charges as appropriate) is that the perception that a "whitewash" is taking place could have more negative repercussions than bad press over an idiot cop.