Delaware AG says fatal police shooting of Virginia man justified

[LEO 229]

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From what I read about the former soldier... it is alleged that he joined a motorcycle gang known for crimes including murders. For some reason, the police were watching him for some time and then decided to arrest him. I am not sure why.

He refused to comply with police commands to see his hand. He was tasered and he continued to refuse to remove his hands. I am not sure why they decided to shoot him and from the information I have so far... do not see it being justified.

I have been tasered!! Your muscles between the dartslocks upduring the5 second cycle.This is enough time for the police to take control and cuff you. It does not cause death, convulsions, vomiting, and any other side effects. It may cause you to "mess yourself" but it is rare.

After the 5 seconds... you can get back up like nothing ever happened. You can immediately comply with any requests. I would rather be tasered than hit with mace.

 

[glocknroll]

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I do appreciate you clearing up the "taking bets" thing. Being involved in a large scale gambling operation is different , in my mind, from taking bets. Another incident I forgot: In a restaurant not far from my house, several DEA agents got drunk and started to argue. Long story short, one of them threatened a guy in the parking lot, without notifying him he was DEA. The civilian showed him a gun (stupid, I admit). DEA shot him. They also shot his friend who was trying to drive off. DEA agent got a felony conviction for shooting the guy trying to escape. If I had been there, and shot one of the Feds, even not knowing who they were, believing that I was defending a guy that was only trying to escape a situation not of his making, I would have an address atthe cemetery. The DEA agent didn't even get jail time, and is now practicing law.

 

[Hawkflyer]

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glocknroll wrote:

...SNIP
Taking bets? This is something I know absolutely nothing about. Is this a felony? In particular, a violent felony? Was this guy killed over a few misdemeanors?
I'm sorry, but "a tragic mistake" just doesn't wash with me. If a civilian shot a LEO in "a tragic mistake", he would tragically be on his way to the gurney for the hot shot.

Why does any of this surprise you?

Randy Weaver's wife and son were killed over a matter of $200 in taxes, and failing to appear in court when his case came up because of a scheduling screw up! All because he sawed off a shotgun barrel and got the saw kerf on the wrong side of the line. It was 1/8" too short. That mistake brought the wrath of two federal Agencies and a lot of local police down on him. In fairness to the FBI it should be noted that the BATFE has gotten them into every significant mess they have been involved in over the last 15 years.

When the state tried to prosecute his wife's killer for murder, the Federal Government intervened. And lets face it, it was murder. I was taught not to fire unless I KNOW where the bullet will stop. If the SWAT teams on Ruby Ridge had practiced that small bit of shooting ethic, Weaver's wife might be alive today.

These kinds of shooting are becoming all to common. After the fact the dead suspect is demonized in the press, and the general public buys the story. Why? Because the Government NEVER lies. Kinda reminds me of Richard M. Nixon commenting on his role in the Watergate coverup - "I am not a crook".

Regards

 

[glocknroll]

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Hawkflyer wrote:

glocknroll wrote:

...SNIP
Taking bets? This is something I know absolutely nothing about. Is this a felony? In particular, a violent felony? Was this guy killed over a few misdemeanors?
I'm sorry, but "a tragic mistake" just doesn't wash with me. If a civilian shot a LEO in "a tragic mistake", he would tragically be on his way to the gurney for the hot shot.

Why does any of this surprise you?

Randy Weaver's wife and son were killed over a matter of $200 in taxes, and failing to appear in court when his case came up because of a scheduling screw up! All because he sawed off a shotgun barrel and got the saw kerf on the wrong side of the line. It was 1/8" too short. That mistake brought the wrath of two federal Agencies and a lot of local police down on him. In fairness to the FBI it should be noted that the BATFE has gotten them into every significant mess they have been involved in over the last 15 years.

When the state tried to prosecute his wife's killer for murder, the Federal Government intervened. And lets face it, it was murder. I was taught not to fire unless I KNOW where the bullet will stop. If the SWAT teams on Ruby Ridge had practiced that small bit of shooting ethic, Weaver's wife might be alive today.

These kinds of shooting are becoming all to common. After the fact the dead suspect is demonized in the press, and the general public buys the story. Why? Because the Government NEVER lies. Kinda reminds me of Richard M. Nixon commenting on his role in the Watergate coverup - "I am not a crook".

Regards

It really doesn't surprise me. Lon Horiuchi should have gone away for a long time, if not forever. At least the gov't admitted fault in that case. They payed Weaver's surviving children $1 million dollars each for the loss of their mother. It doesn't fix anything, but they admitted they were wrong.

 

[LEO 229]

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glocknroll wrote:

I do appreciate you clearing up the "taking bets" thing. Being involved in a large scale gambling operation is different , in my mind, from taking bets. Another incident I forgot: In a restaurant not far from my house, several DEA agents got drunk and started to argue.

Long story short, one of them threatened a guy in the parking lot, without notifying him he was DEA. The civilian showed him a gun (stupid, I admit). DEA shot him. They also shot his friend who was trying to drive off. DEA agent got a felony conviction for shooting the guy trying to escape. If I had been there, and shot one of the Feds, even not knowing who they were, believing that I was defending a guy that was only trying to escape a situation not of his making, I would have an address atthe cemetery. The DEA agent didn't even get jail time, and is now practicing law.

Welcome for the clarification...

The DEA guy should not display his badge unless he is going to act under some legal authority and take action. And then.... if he needs to display his gun.. he SHOULD, when pratical, show his badge too.

Having said that... the civilian decided to pull out a gun during a verbal argument. That was stupid. As I have mentioned here before.. You do not pull out your gununless you are ready and willing to use it.

IMO... The DEA guy was justified in shooting without advising he is DEA. This would go for any civilian too in the same situation. Does the civilian seeing a gun say.. "Stop! I'm a CIVILIAN" and then shoot? OK, I was being funny there. If you think your going to be shot.. your not going to waste time beforetaking out the threat.

Now.... shooting at the guy driving AWAY and NOT ARMED... I say that is not justified at all. He should have gone to jail for the second guy. That was stupid for him to do.

 

[glocknroll]

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LEO 229 wrote:

glocknroll wrote:

I do appreciate you clearing up the "taking bets" thing. Being involved in a large scale gambling operation is different , in my mind, from taking bets. Another incident I forgot: In a restaurant not far from my house, several DEA agents got drunk and started to argue.

Long story short, one of them threatened a guy in the parking lot, without notifying him he was DEA. The civilian showed him a gun (stupid, I admit). DEA shot him. They also shot his friend who was trying to drive off. DEA agent got a felony conviction for shooting the guy trying to escape. If I had been there, and shot one of the Feds, even not knowing who they were, believing that I was defending a guy that was only trying to escape a situation not of his making, I would have an address atthe cemetery. The DEA agent didn't even get jail time, and is now practicing law.

Welcome for the clarification...

The DEA guy should not display his badge unless he is going to act under some legal authority and take action. And then.... if he needs to display his gun.. he SHOULD, when pratical, show his badge too.

Having said that... the civilian decided to pull out a gun during a verbal argument. That was stupid. As I have mentioned here before.. You do not pull out your gununless you are ready and willing to use it.

IMO... The DEA guy was justified in shooting without advising he is DEA. This would go for any civilian too in the same situation. Does the civilian seeing a gun say.. "Stop! I'm a CIVILIAN" and then shoot? OK, I was being funny there. If you think your going to be shot.. your not going to waste time beforetaking out the threat.

Now.... shooting at the guy driving AWAY and NOT ARMED... I say that is not justified at all. He should have gone to jail for the second guy. That was stupid for him to do.

I agree with everything you just said, and so did the court. He should have gone to jail for the second shooting, but he didn't. I would have, and so would any other civilian.

 

[LEO 229]

imported post

Hawkflyer wrote:

Why does any of this surprise you?

Randy Weaver's wife and son were killed over a matter of $200 in taxes, and failing to appear in court when his case came up because of a scheduling screw up! All because he sawed off a shotgun barrel and got the saw kerf on the wrong side of the line. It was 1/8" too short. That mistake brought the wrath of two federal Agencies and a lot of local police down on him. In fairness to the FBI it should be noted that the BATFE has gotten them into every significant mess they have been involved in over the last 15 years.

When the state tried to prosecute his wife's killer for murder, the Federal Government intervened. And lets face it, it was murder. I was taught not to fire unless I KNOW where the bullet will stop. If the SWAT teams on Ruby Ridge had practiced that small bit of shooting ethic, Weaver's wife might be alive today.

These kinds of shooting are becoming all to common. After the fact the dead suspect is demonized in the press, and the general public buys the story. Why? Because the Government NEVER lies. Kinda reminds me of Richard M. Nixon commenting on his role in the Watergate coverup - "I am not a crook".

Regards

It appears that the ATF takes things too far. IMO.. they are a little too serious about what they do.

Poor planning and extreme tactics. I can understand they are dealing with firearms. But if you plan it right... you can get it done without firing a shot. They do not want to take the time and want to show everyone they are not messing around.

 

[glocknroll]

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LEO 229 wrote:

Hawkflyer wrote:

Why does any of this surprise you?

Randy Weaver's wife and son were killed over a matter of $200 in taxes, and failing to appear in court when his case came up because of a scheduling screw up! All because he sawed off a shotgun barrel and got the saw kerf on the wrong side of the line. It was 1/8" too short. That mistake brought the wrath of two federal Agencies and a lot of local police down on him. In fairness to the FBI it should be noted that the BATFE has gotten them into every significant mess they have been involved in over the last 15 years.

When the state tried to prosecute his wife's killer for murder, the Federal Government intervened. And lets face it, it was murder. I was taught not to fire unless I KNOW where the bullet will stop. If the SWAT teams on Ruby Ridge had practiced that small bit of shooting ethic, Weaver's wife might be alive today.

These kinds of shooting are becoming all to common. After the fact the dead suspect is demonized in the press, and the general public buys the story. Why? Because the Government NEVER lies. Kinda reminds me of Richard M. Nixon commenting on his role in the Watergate coverup - "I am not a crook".

Regards

It appears that the ATF takes things too far. IMO.. they are a little too serious about what they do.

Poor planning and extreme tactics. I can understand they are dealing with firearms. But if you plan it right... you can get it done without firing a shot. They do not want to take the time and want to show everyone they are not messing around.

The ATF deals with TAXES. The firearms are not in themselves illegal. Paying the taxes on them and not registering them is.

 

[LEO 229]

imported post

glocknroll wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Hawkflyer wrote:

Why does any of this surprise you?

Randy Weaver's wife and son were killed over a matter of $200 in taxes, and failing to appear in court when his case came up because of a scheduling screw up! All because he sawed off a shotgun barrel and got the saw kerf on the wrong side of the line. It was 1/8" too short. That mistake brought the wrath of two federal Agencies and a lot of local police down on him. In fairness to the FBI it should be noted that the BATFE has gotten them into every significant mess they have been involved in over the last 15 years.

When the state tried to prosecute his wife's killer for murder, the Federal Government intervened. And lets face it, it was murder. I was taught not to fire unless I KNOW where the bullet will stop. If the SWAT teams on Ruby Ridge had practiced that small bit of shooting ethic, Weaver's wife might be alive today.

These kinds of shooting are becoming all to common. After the fact the dead suspect is demonized in the press, and the general public buys the story. Why? Because the Government NEVER lies. Kinda reminds me of Richard M. Nixon commenting on his role in the Watergate coverup - "I am not a crook".

Regards

It appears that the ATF takes things too far. IMO.. they are a little too serious about what they do.

Poor planning and extreme tactics. I can understand they are dealing with firearms. But if you plan it right... you can get it done without firing a shot. They do not want to take the time and want to show everyone they are not messing around.

The ATF deals with TAXES. The firearms are not in themselves illegal. Paying the taxes on them and not registering them is.

Ah.. What I meant was the people they were wanting to get had firearms.

 

[Hawkflyer]

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glocknroll wrote:

...SNIP

It really doesn't surprise me. Lon Horiuchi should have gone away for a long time, if not forever. At least the gov't admitted fault in that case. They payed Weaver's surviving children $1 million dollars each for the loss of their mother. It doesn't fix anything, but they admitted they were wrong.

They didn't admit much. Nobody got fired.

 

[glocknroll]

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Hawkflyer wrote:

glocknroll wrote:

...SNIP

It really doesn't surprise me. Lon Horiuchi should have gone away for a long time, if not forever. At least the gov't admitted fault in that case. They payed Weaver's surviving children $1 million dollars each for the loss of their mother. It doesn't fix anything, but they admitted they were wrong.

They didn't admit much. Nobody got fired.

True. I hadn't really thought of it that way. I guess what they did was buy their out of it with our money.

 

[Hawkflyer]

imported post

glocknroll wrote:

Hawkflyer wrote:

glocknroll wrote:

...SNIP

It really doesn't surprise me. Lon Horiuchi should have gone away for a long time, if not forever. At least the gov't admitted fault in that case. They payed Weaver's surviving children $1 million dollars each for the loss of their mother. It doesn't fix anything, but they admitted they were wrong.

They didn't admit much. Nobody got fired.

True. I hadn't really thought of it that way. I guess what they did was buy their out of it with our money.

+1

 

[glocknroll]

imported post

LEO 229 wrote:

glocknroll wrote:

I do appreciate you clearing up the "taking bets" thing. Being involved in a large scale gambling operation is different , in my mind, from taking bets. Another incident I forgot: In a restaurant not far from my house, several DEA agents got drunk and started to argue.

Long story short, one of them threatened a guy in the parking lot, without notifying him he was DEA. The civilian showed him a gun (stupid, I admit). DEA shot him. They also shot his friend who was trying to drive off. DEA agent got a felony conviction for shooting the guy trying to escape. If I had been there, and shot one of the Feds, even not knowing who they were, believing that I was defending a guy that was only trying to escape a situation not of his making, I would have an address atthe cemetery. The DEA agent didn't even get jail time, and is now practicing law.

Welcome for the clarification...

The DEA guy should not display his badge unless he is going to act under some legal authority and take action. And then.... if he needs to display his gun.. he SHOULD, when pratical, show his badge too.

Having said that... the civilian decided to pull out a gun during a verbal argument. That was stupid. As I have mentioned here before.. You do not pull out your gununless you are ready and willing to use it.

IMO... The DEA guy was justified in shooting without advising he is DEA. This would go for any civilian too in the same situation. Does the civilian seeing a gun say.. "Stop! I'm a CIVILIAN" and then shoot? OK, I was being funny there. If you think your going to be shot.. your not going to waste time beforetaking out the threat.

Now.... shooting at the guy driving AWAY and NOT ARMED... I say that is not justified at all. He should have gone to jail for the second guy. That was stupid for him to do.

I don't think I made myself clear on this point. The fact that he hadn't identified himself wouldn't have made any difference if any civilian had shot him. They would have fried for killing a federal agent. Even if they had been trying to defend the innocent guy trying to escape a bad situation. There is no doubt that the first guy was wrong to produce a gun. I should have made it more clear. What he did was reach into the truck, and set the gun on the hood. Never pointed it at the DEA agents. Just got it out. Still a dumbass thing to do. The whole point is, if any civilian had shot one of the feds, they would have gone down for it. If not there in the parking lot, then in court. As it was, the DEA agent got no jail time. He did get a felony conviction, and of course his law enforcement career is over. Not for the first shooting, but for shooting the guy trying to get away.

 

[glocknroll]

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LEO 229 wrote:

glocknroll wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

.

.

Ah.. What I meant was the people they were wanting to get had firearms.

So do about 70 million other Americans.

 

[SFDoc]

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glocknroll wrote:

If you believe the witnesses, he never had a chance to get on the ground or get his hands away from his body. I wasn't there, so I can never really know what happened. The Pagans do have a serious reputationas "1 percenters" (the one percent of the population that are true psychopaths), even among other motorcycle clubs. This incident still reminds me too much of what I have heard of SIS of the LAPD. I personally believe that he had been established as a "threat to officer safety" in advance because of his combat veteran status. Once again, I can't know what was going through the minds of anyone present at the time. But still, in the minds of most, Pagan MC+ Marine combat vet= extremely dangerous individual. I don't think he ever had a snowball's chance to surrrender.

I agree, they most likely had already prejudged the suspect and should have tried other non-lethal methods before shooting the suspect. That said, I’ve had my share of dealings with the Pagans (if he was a member) in the past and they are not a group you would want to cross in any shape or fashion. If the suspect had earned his colors, he had already been involved in some serious illegal activities. You just don’t get your colors by just being a former Marine with combat experience. Some of these guys are psychopaths in the extreme sense. They should be viewed as a threat (LEO or not).

 

[VAopencarry]

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I knew Hale a little bit, to the extent I had several conversations with him. Always seemed like a decent guy, not a thug, drug dealer or psychopath. I was surprised he was involved with an MC like the Pagans.

 

[LEO 229]

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glocknroll wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Ah.. What I meant was the people they were wanting to get had firearms.

So do about 70 million other Americans.

Permit me to clarify further... Illegal firearms.. be it... unregistered and no tax paid.

Does that help lower that number down a little?


Let me further clarify unregistered..... Short Barrel, Machine Guns... those special weapons that must be registered. Not that "all" standard firearms must be registered. I know someone would jump on that next.

It is incredible how people can read into something and totally miss what your talking about.

 

[SFDoc]

imported post

Vaopencarry,

It’s possible that he was recruited by the Pagans for his clean cut image. The Hell’s Angles (which got their name from an old Howard Hughes movie not a group of WWII fighter pilots) started recruiting doctors and lawyers and CEOs back in the 80s just to improve their image so the FBI, ATF and DEA would get off their back. He might have gotten duped into joining for the same reason.

 

[Hawkflyer]

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LEO 229 wrote:

..SNIP
It is incredible how people can read into something and totally miss what your talking about.

This is actually a skill that requires a lot of creative thought. So much so that you have to believe it is intentional. Of course in your case it is intentional!:what:

Regards

 

[LEO 229]

imported post

Hawkflyer wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

..SNIP
It is incredible how people can read into something and totally miss what your talking about.

This is actually a skill that requires a lot of creative thought. So much so that you have to believe it is intentional. Of course in your case it is intentional!:what:

Regards

You have to wonder... "Why?" What is the reason to post a response like that? Does this person think I amthat F-ing stupid that I would not know so many people own guns? Hell, I own more than the average American.. including a machine gun.

Wasthe purpose to nullify a reason to go arrest someone with force? It only strengthens the fact that any arrest at a person's home is high risk!

IMO.... If you read into something someone has written and you can pull out a vague discrepancy.. I feel you WANT to find something WRONG in what they are saying.

Ok.. activating Anti-Rant option...