• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Delaware AG says fatal police shooting of Virginia man justified

Hawkflyer

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2007
Messages
3,309
Location
Prince William County, Virginia, USA
imported post

LEO 229 wrote:
... SNIP

You have to wonder... "Why?"   What is the reason to post a response like that? Does this person think I am that F-ing stupid that I would not know so many people own guns? Hell, I own more than the average American.. including a machine gun.
SNIP...
It is an interesting phenomenon. I am certain part of it is just what you said. to diminish your statement by making it look like an oversimplified exaggeration. But most thinking people see that tactic for what it is.

People should just take the plain english reading of the words as the primary possible meaning, and leave it at that. Straining and reaching for meanings that were not the obvious intent are a waste of bits.

Regards
 

LEO 229

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2007
Messages
7,606
Location
USA
imported post

glocknroll wrote:
I don't think I made myself clear on this point. The fact that he hadn't identified himself wouldn't have made any difference if any civilian had shot him. They would have fried for killing a federal agent. Even if they had been trying to defend the innocent guy trying to escape a bad situation. There is no doubt that the first guy was wrong to produce a gun. I should have made it more clear. What he did was reach into the truck, and set the gun on the hood. Never pointed it at the DEA agents. Just got it out. Still a dumbass thing to do. The whole point is, if any civilian had shot one of the feds, they would have gone down for it. If not there in the parking lot, then in court. As it was, the DEA agent got no jail time. He did get a felony conviction, and of course his law enforcement career is over. Not for the first shooting, but for shooting the guy trying to get away.

I am not sure I can completely agree with you here. I see your point but think other factors would come into play also.

If the civilian did shoot in self defensenot knowing it was a DEA Agent... and the Agent was not "On the job" nor did he identify himself.. AND... the DEA Agent was not attempting to make a lawful arrest.... It "could" be justified as self defense.

The entire notion of self defense against a LEO will be looked at real close! But before the LEO draws his weapon... he better have been making an arrest or attempting to save the life.

DC has had problems with LEOs shooting off duty LEOs who took action and failed to identify themselves quick enough. The shooter was never charged based on the situation. Now.. I know... LEO on LEO shooing is a little different but that is all I can give you at the moment.

Maybe Civilian can scan the net for me and find something.
 

Hawkflyer

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2007
Messages
3,309
Location
Prince William County, Virginia, USA
imported post

LEO 229 wrote:
...SNIP
LEO on LEO shooing is a little different but that is all I can give you at the moment.

Maybe Civilian can scan the net for me and find something.

There have been citizen shooting of LEOs that have been ruled justified based on circumstances. I will have to dig a while to find any possible cites, but one that comes to mind from the very early days of no-knock entries turned out to be the wrong address.

The first guy through the door did not identify himself as a LEO but the moment he saw the resident he opened fire. The owner returned fire and his first shot hit the LEO in the face with a load of 12 gauge buck shot killing him instantly. The resident was wounded, and initially charged, but the charges were thrown out due to the procedure issue and the fact they had the wrong address. The resident was ruled as having lawfully defended himself from what he reasonably believed was a home invasion.

But lets face it such cases would typically be tried as murder.

Regards
 

LEO 229

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2007
Messages
7,606
Location
USA
imported post

Hawkflyer wrote:
There have been citizen shooting of LEOs that have been ruled justified based on circumstances. I will have to dig a while to find any possible cites, but one that comes to mind from the very early days of no-knock entries turned out to be the wrong address.

The first guy through the door did not identify himself as a LEO but the moment he saw the resident he opened fire. The owner returned fire and his first shot hit the LEO in the face with a load of 12 gauge buck shot killing him instantly. The resident was wounded, and initially charged, but the charges were thrown out due to the procedure issue and the fact they had the wrong address. The resident was ruled as having lawfully defended himself from what he reasonably believed was a home invasion.

But lets face it such cases would typically be tried as murder.

Regards

Exactly....

I do not believe that all civilians that shoot a LEO are tried when there are circumstances to show doubt. If the Civilian honestly did not know and the situation can justify the civilian to shoot in self defense....

Will the department push to have the person tried? Of Course! And when the situation is reversed... the family does the same thing. Neither wants to believe it was an accident.
 

Hawkflyer

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2007
Messages
3,309
Location
Prince William County, Virginia, USA
imported post

Hawkflyer wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
...SNIP
LEO on LEO shooing is a little different but that is all I can give you at the moment.

Maybe Civilian can scan the net for me and find something.

There have been citizen shootings of LEOs that have been ruled justified based on circumstances. I will have to dig a while to find any possible cites. SNIP...

EDIT: I could not find actual links, but here are a few cases.

In 2003, Muncie, Indiana's Jillian King was prosecuted for felony criminal recklessness when she shot at SWAT team members after she looked through the window and saw what she thought was a burgler prying open her door. The SWAT team was raiding King's home after finding traces of cocaine in the car of another resident at the address. They were dressed in black masks and camouflage. King had been robbed at gunpoint months earlier. A jury deadlocked, neither convicting her, nor acquitting her.

In 1989, police in Titusville, Florida raided the home of 58-year-old Charles DiGristine, a retired painter. As a flashbang grenade detonated near the front door, DiGristine's wife screamed, and he ran to his bedroom to get a handgun. An officer in dark clothing and a black mask charged the bedroom, where DiGristine shot and killed him. Police raided on information from an anonymous informant that the house was being used by armed drug dealers. They found a small amount of marijuana belonging to DiGristine's son. Nevertheless, DiGristine was charged and tried for first-degree murder. A jury acquitted him.

On October 12, 1995, police in Topeka, Kansas conducted a 2:50am raid on the home of Stephen Shively, whom they suspected of dealing marijuana. After battering down an outer door, Shively awoke as police were working to break down the inner door to his apartment. Shively would later tell a court he felt his life was in danger when he grabbed a gun and fired at the figures he saw through a crack in the paneling around his door. His bullet struck and killed officer Tony Patterson. In pressing murder charges, prosecutors claimed that Shively -- who had called 911 during the raid -- intentionally engaged in a gun battle with police to protect the 12 ounces of marijuana he had on hand. A jury acquitted Shively of murder, but convicted him of aggravated assault and charges related to the drugs found in his possession. The judge sentenced him to 3 1/2 years in prison, taking care to note that Shively didn't fit the description of "a drug lord with horns and fangs." In 1998, a judge released Shively after he had served 2 years and 7 months of his sentence. In 1999, the Kansas Court of Appeals ruled the search warrant officers used to raid Shively's apartment was unconstitutional. Nevertheless, the Topeka Police Department awarded six officers Medals of Merit for their actions the night of the Shively raid.
 

glocknroll

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2007
Messages
428
Location
Hampton, Virginia, USA
imported post

LEO 229 wrote:
glocknroll wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
Ah.. What I meant was the people they were wanting to get had firearms. :D
So do about 70 million other Americans.

Permit me to clarify further... Illegal firearms.. be it... unregistered and no tax paid.

Does that help lower that number down a little?


Let me further clarify unregistered..... Short Barrel, Machine Guns... those special weapons that must be registered. Not that "all" standard firearms must be registered. I know someone would jump on that next.

It is incredible how people can read into something and totally miss what your talking about.
You're right. I was yanking your chain, and I apologize. I think I started this on the wrong concept. If I was to shoot another person, anyone, it would almost never be thought of as a tragic accident. In the civilian world, tragic accident usually equates with involuntary manslaughter. Hunting accidents are rarely prosecuted. But except for clear cases of self defense, anyone other than a LEO would be prosecuted for a "tragic accident". I think most LEO involved shootings are justified. I am very pro law enforcement. It just seems that at times, cops are given a pass when the average citizen would fry.
 
Top