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Did I overdo it?

()pen(arry

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2010
Messages
735
Location
Seattle, WA; escaped from 18 years in TX
Separate statute; Separate crime.

If you're standing in the driveway as a look-out while I steal the car, you're not stealing the car. You're an accomplice.

Thanks for playing.

OK

You clearly aren't familiar with felony crime escalation. Felony murder is routinely leveled at people who were not actually party to the murder, but were involved in the felony being committed. It is even leveled at people involved in a felony when the related death wasn't even murder. If you think Dan Satterberg is going to pass up the chance to charge both parties with violation of I-594, and if you think a judge and jury won't agree with him, you're hopelessly naive.

So take your flippant dismissal and shove it up your butt. He was right, and you're both ignorant and rude.
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
But when you start seriously advocating "equitable" enforcement of an unjust law, you let your emotions cloud your judgment. You no longer possess the moral high ground. Plus, down that road lies the dark side.

Take my opinion, or leave it. You won't, however, convince me that it's ever moral to enforce an unjust law, even in the lame of "equitability", for I've had too long to think about such things.

(Would it have been "more moral" to require the Nazis to "equitably" gas everybody, or was the only possible moral outcome the end of their mass murder outright? You decide.)

In my estimation, it is immoral to enforce an unjust law. To the degree that you advocate for the enforcement ("equitable" or otherwise) of an unjust law, you are in my estimation immoral. That's really the long and short of it.

Ignoring your invocation of Godwin's law....

You are arguing from the position of false dichotomy. You assume the choice is to either enforce the law or not enforce it. In that fiction, of course we should not enforce it.

Let me point out the real world third option of an unjust law being enforced only against unpopular minorities, or those unable to effectively challenge it. In such a case, the injustice of the law is perpetuated because those with the means or inclination to repeal the law were it to affect them personally, are not being personally affected.

It is the injustice of may-issue permits. So long as the well connected, rich, powerful, and famous can get their permits, what do they care if nobody else can effectively defend their lives? Going a step further, so long as laws against concealed carry are only enforced against racial minorities, poor people, or other "undesirables", if the upper members of society have effectively zero risk of ever being searched nor of being prosecuted if they are found in violation, how does the law change?

Having a bad law go unenforced entirely is better than having it enforced. But even this leaves the specter hanging over your head. Having a bad law enforced selectively against an unpopular minority is worse. Enforcing a bad law against everyone--including the mayor's kid, and the senator's wife, and businessman selling nail guns--is about the best way to assure that the law is repealed and never again enforced against anyone.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
Did I overdo it? If anyone else feels so inclined, they can use this as well.

Sounds like the law could be challenged for vagueness.

Have you got some legal folks who can figure out how to get standing and mount a challenge without someone having to get arrested?

Sometimes making clear that you intend to do something that could fall into the purview of the law is enough to get standing without having to be arrested. Obviously, you pick something like transferring a nail gun, or letting friend borrow your gun while at the range together, etc.

Charles
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Enforcing a bad law against everyone--including the mayor's kid, and the senator's wife, and businessman selling nail guns--is about the best way to assure that the law is repealed and never again enforced against anyone.

That's a wonderful theory, with two problems:

1. If this law managed to accomplish its main intent without all the collateral, it would still be bad law, but it would no longer affect the mayor's kid and the senators wife, much less the businessman selling nail guns. Moreover, those groups could easily have the law reformed to still achieve its intended effect while no longer affecting them. (Guns are evil and scary, doncha know.) In either event I would continue to argue that less enforcement must always be better than more.

2. I see little evidence that your contention is actually true. Every Californian is, for instance, equally subject to the state's onerous yet silly firearms laws (no standard capacity magazines, handgun roster, AW ban, etc etc etc) yet these remain un-repealed.

The best you can say about your approach is that it might eliminate laws above some certain degree of onerousness. Assuming the current law does, in fact, exceed that level, it would take remarkably little "reform" to rectify that whilst leaving a bad, immoral law on the books.
 
Last edited:

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
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Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
That's a wonderful theory, with two problems:

1. If this law managed to accomplish its main intent without all the collateral, it would still be bad law, but it would no longer affect the mayor's kid and the senators wife, much less the businessman selling nail guns. Moreover, those groups could easily have the law reformed to still achieve its intended effect while no longer affecting them. (Guns are evil and scary, doncha know.) In either event I would continue to argue that less enforcement must always be better than more.

Again, if the gun law applies to everyone it is more likely to be repealed than if it is enforced only against an unpopular minority. Enforcing against a small minority is offensive and might go on forever whereas if enforced against everyone, there is greater chance of a demand to repeal.

To a different topic, if rich white kids got treated exactly as poor black kids for illegal drug use and possession, how long do you really think it would take for rich white parents to demand some changes in the law? I note that with a black president and black AG, the DoJ is very actively making changes in sentencing guidelines for various non-violent drug offenses. Coincidence? Clinton admitted to trying a little dope as a kid. But did his children and grandchildren run the sake risk of having their entire lives destroyed by a minor offense as do those children who are likely to be personally known to Obama and Holder?

2. I see little evidence that your contention is actually true. Every Californian is, for instance, equally subject to the state's onerous yet silly firearms laws (no standard capacity magazines, handgun roster, AW ban, etc etc etc) yet these remain un-repealed.

First of all, rich Californians can obtain may-issue permits to defend themselves. Or the truly rich can hire private security and not even have the inconvenience of carrying guns themselves.

Secondly, it is entirely possible that the gun laws of the left coast are actually quite agreeable to the majority of their citizens. If that is true--and I see no evidence to the contrary considering who they elect as their senators--then the only recourse is to fundamental rights that must be protected against majority vote. The courts seem to be coming along slowly on that one for RKBA.


The best you can say about your approach is that it might eliminate laws above some certain degree of onerousness. Assuming the current law does, in fact, exceed that level, it would take remarkably little "reform" to rectify that whilst leaving a bad, immoral law on the books.

The approach might help to eliminate laws the majority finds more than some level of offensive. Obviously, if the majority finds the law agreeable, then by definition, only a minority is likely to suffer.

"Fixing" the law to apply only to firearms would make the law less offensive--though no less unconstitutional, IMO--than applying it to nail guns. And that could happen. But the point is, enforcement of the law would lead to some change in the law until the law is less offensive.

There is no guarantee of perfection.

For better or worse, in a constitutional democratic republic, we can get the government we deserve. The population of Washington State voted to create a really bad law. In the absence of evidence of vote fraud, this is what the majority wants. It is offensive to our rights. But it gets rather difficult to overcome majority sentiment in any system (like citizen initiatives) where majority desires are allowed to rule. Allowing minority sentiment to rule can be just as bad in many other cases.

Charles
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
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Aug 13, 2007
Messages
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Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Secondly, it is entirely possible that the gun laws of the left coast are actually quite agreeable to the majority of their citizens. If that is true--and I see no evidence to the contrary considering who they elect as their senators--then the only recourse is to fundamental rights that must be protected against majority vote. The courts seem to be coming along slowly on that one for RKBA.

This is what I'm getting at, though.

By convincing folks that a law criminalizing nail guns is bad, the best you can hope for is that they'll decriminalize nail guns.

As it stands, what we really want is to convince folks that the "mandatory background check" law this was trying to be is bad, too. Getting folks arrested for nail guns won't achieve that end.
 

Difdi

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
987
Location
Seattle, Washington, USA
Getting folks arrested for nail guns won't achieve that end.

No, but it might get a saner definition of what a firearm is into state law. Our existing definition arguably includes fire extinguishers, and certainly includes flare guns and nail guns.

The ferry system is a good example of how 594 impacts other laws. Ferries are certified by the US Coast Guard to carry passengers and as such must obey certain USCG regulations. Among them is the safety gear carried on board, which includes flare guns. Safety gear that no one has access to violates the regulations but anyone who has access to a flare gun has enough possession of it to (if it were a handgun) result in a felon being convicted of possessing it.

Has every employee who sets foot on the ferry been background checked? I know the passengers haven't. Don't forget either that just because you passed a background check yesterday or last week doesn't mean you don't need one for a transfer of the same object today under 594. I-594 requires a check for EVERY transfer.

In many cases, a conspiracy to commit a crime amplifies the penalties. Either every ferry is in violation of USCG regulations and cannot legally carry passengers or every employee on the boat and every passenger as well commits a gross misdemeanor the first time they set foot on the boat and a felony every time after that.
 

Lammo

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2009
Messages
580
Location
Spokane, Washington, USA
SNIP Home Depot, Lowe's, hardware and home improvement stores are selling devices that fire a projectile using gunpowder, including evil semi-automatics! SNIP

FWIW: A good friend of mine works for Lowe's here on the dry side. She said they had already stopped selling gunpowder actuated nail guns, even before "The Atrocity Known As 594".
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Lowes not selling "Ramset" charges is not indicative of they conforming to I-594 in advance. These charges are notoriously left to gather dust in retail HI stores.
 

MSG Laigaie

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
3,241
Location
Philipsburg, Montana
I just stopped by my local Lowes and picked up a half dozen boxes of charges. No worries, no hassle, no background check.

I do not own a "nail gun", I use then for perimeter alarms and a few "special weapons".
 

thewise1

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Messages
383
Location
Moscow, ID
The law should be enforced, not because it is a good law, but because if people do not realize what a bad law that they voted in, it will never be removed.

Additionally, to live in a place where you can violate the law sometimes, and be ok, but violate it other times and get a nondeterministic result is scary and dangerous. The legal world is somewhat inherently nondeterministic, it would seem, but in general, you can count on justice being done according to the law. Right now, you cannot.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
It should not be enforced, it should be nullified wherever possible and from whatever level.

Of course I feel the same about jay-walking and personal vices.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
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Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Not enforcing it is also a form of nullification from those who have the authority to enforce it.

IF it is enforced then the people should as jurors use their right to judge the law and not convict. When or if it becomes apparent the enforcers won't get convictions the enforcers wont enforce anymore which again is nullification.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
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Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
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Whatcom County
and the problem with that is that the law is still on the books and is a foundation for the anti-gun crowd to build upon. The anti-gun crowd was virtually unopposed in the passage of I-594 and I am very surprised that I haven't seen any petitions yet for signatures on an assault weapons ban or magazine capacity limit initiative.

Oh yea definitely a problem.

I fear that's coming all too soon for our tastes......:(
 
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