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Do I have an obligation to serve my country in the Military?

Tomahawk

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Citizen wrote:
longwatch wrote:
However, if the day ever comes that the chinese paratroopers start landing, I'll willingly show up to when the militia is called or reenlist if the Corps will take me.
I probably would, too. With the caveat that if the opposition has waspknives on their bayonet studs, then VAopencarry can walk point. :)
Yes, he's peobably tough enough to take a shot of CO2 and just suck it up.
 

PavePusher

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imperialism2024 wrote:
PT111 wrote:
I notice quite often on here people love to compare the Israeli laws on carrying of guns yetmany don't seem to thing too much of the mandatory military service required of Israeli citizens. Maybe if all Americans were required to serve in the military then there would not be nearly as much objection to the carrying of guns by the average citizen.

Sitting in your house with an AK waiting for the SHTF is not the same as serving in the military. Just a thought.
(1) As for the former, that's also a difference between a defensive military, like Israel has, and a mercenary force, which is what the US has. I doubt there would be an opposition to mandatory military service if this country were surrounded by hostile countries waiting for an opportunity to invade us, especially if there was only one ethnicity in this country with one set of values that almost everyone universally accepted. Even so, there would be sufficient differences that make it an apples-and-oranges situation. Not to mention that, for reasons I won't discuss here out of fear of getting branded an "unAmerican pinko liberal nutjob", (2) it seems to me that military service in the US military does nothing to make someone more qualified to carry a gun and, if anything, has the opposite effect.

As for the latter, I don't advocate people to buy an AK and sit at home with it, obviously. But keeping a few good firearms, practicing frequently, training for combat situations, being prepared at all times, and having a clear mind is at least as beneficial as serving in the US military. Once again, I could go into details, but I'd rather not be denounced as I've described previously.

1. With all due respect, we are not mercenaries. If you don't like the way we military folk are being used (and many of us don't really like it either), then your problem is with the civilian control of the military. We could, of course, tell the civilian authority to go stuff itself, but historically speaking,nations were that has occured end up in bad condition very quickly.

2. How so? Not trying to stir the pot, just wondering what your reasoning is. I promise not to brand you as an"unAmerican pinko liberal nutjob". :)
 

ilbob

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There is no obligation to serve. In fact, I am not even sure we would want universal service. We need people to be productive and pay taxes to support those that do serve. If everyone was in the military for 2 or 3 years, it would be a huge productivity drain. And a lot of people just are not suitable.
 

Lthrnck

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Any abled bodied person who is not willing to serve this country in the military or though some type of civil service does not deseve to be here. US citizenship is very special and priviliged. Support it or we are going to lose it.
 

VAopencarry

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Citizen wrote:
longwatch wrote:
However, if the day ever comes that the chinese paratroopers start landing, I'll willingly show up to when the militia is called or reenlist if the Corps will take me.
I probably would, too. With the caveat that if the opposition has waspknives on their bayonet studs, then VAopencarry can walk point. :)
Well the motto of 1st Bn, 4thMarines(82-84) is "Whatever It Takes". So...if that is what it takes then that is what I'll do. Ah....the Cold War, those were the days....

On topic, I do not believe there should be compulsory service. I think it is a good idea for young people to join.
 

Flintlock

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Lthrnck wrote:
Any abled bodied person who is not willing to serve this country in the military or though some type of civil service does not deseve to be here. US citizenship is very special and priviliged. Support it or we are going to lose it.
What is this Starship Troopers...??

Join the federal serviceto gain citizenship? That statement sticks a finger in the eye of what America is all about and the freedoms we enjoy. That includes the freedoms to decideto serve or not.Our all-volunteer military is the most productive and powerful in all the world and would be severely tarnished with forced enlistment.

Most of us fit the criteria and are already part of the unorganized militia per federal code and can, in theory, be called to arms by the state and also be federalizedto repel invaders, etc..

If you are contributing member of society, pay taxes, etc.. I don't see what the problem is. Some people can't serve and some we wouldn't want to.
 

bohdi

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Flintlock wrote:
Join the federal serviceto gain citizenship? That statement sticks a finger in the eye of what America is all about and the freedoms we enjoy. That includes the freedoms to decideto serve or not.Our all-volunteer military is the most productive and powerful in all the world and would be severely tarnished with forced enlistment.
The military has been a way for people to gain citizenship for quite a while. It started with Puerto Rico, and I believe that other places are now allowed the same privilidge. While I don't entirely disagree with this practice, I don't entirely agree either. Some citizens in our service don't do the service justice, I think that can be said across all branches of the armed forces. Though you do have to question and completely investigate anyone not born on our soil who wants to join the military to gain citizenship, I'd rather have someone who is willing and wants to be in the military than someone who's just in it for the 9 to 5 and college money.

I also think that mandatory service for people is a good and bad thing. Good because I think it would give people a chance to "grow up" and really find out what they are made of. Boot camp did ( because it's nicer and gentler now days) agood job of that. Though I'm sure it's still not a cake walk today, standards have gotten lower and I don't entirely agree with that. You have standards for a reason, quality control. So now you have more sub standard people in the military IQ and physical fitness wise, and that becomes aliability to everyone around them. The problem is what do you do when your citizenry is less likely to join a volunteer force because of unpopular conflicts who's beginnings are questioned as being legitimate to begin with? It's a conundrum to be sure.

I spent 5 years in the Navy. WhenI first enlistedI thought that if you sign up to do the time, you ought to stick it out, anything less is weak and unpatriotic - I was 18 when I enlisted and was 5 days removed from graduating highschool at the time. Four years later and alot more knowledgeable, my views changed, my attitudes changed, and my desire to stay in changed. There are some people that are just not "suited" for military life, it's a hard life. Some people just don't do well at certain things, like being at sea. You can say what you want, you can take the "sea sickness" pills, but there are some folks who just get sick, no matter what. That ain't no fun at all, especially if your out to sea for months. I've been deployed and sick a few times, imagine your worst hang over lasting for days - I've seen people that sick, and basically being incapacitated. I was stuck carrying their load while they had their head in a garbage can for 48 hours or more. In certain situations, some people are just not a fit for military life. It's better to let those people out early, than make everyone else pay later on.

On the same note, if your leadership sucks, it drives people out. That's what happened to me. I was smart enough to know that things wouldn't change for me for a year and a half. Sure, I could have "sucked it up", but given the option of being free and dealing with pointless BS for a year and a half didn't seem worth it. Bad people can ruin any team, anywhere, any time. It's not a trait exclusive to just the military. Look at any group there is on the planet. Heck, Jim Sollo is a great example for the anti's, lol.

I think every citizen has an obligation to serve their nation, and you do that by being involved. Vote, pay attention to laws, get interested in your community. If you feel like serving, it has it's pro's and con's, just like anything in life, it's a compromise. Just make sure you know what your giving up, is worth what your going to get out of it.
 

Flintlock

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bohdi wrote:
Flintlock wrote:
Join the federal serviceto gain citizenship? That statement sticks a finger in the eye of what America is all about and the freedoms we enjoy. That includes the freedoms to decideto serve or not.Our all-volunteer military is the most productive and powerful in all the world and would be severely tarnished with forced enlistment.
The military has been a way for people to gain citizenship for quite a while. It started with Puerto Rico, and I believe that other places are now allowed the same privilidge. While I don't entirely disagree with this practice, I don't entirely agree either. Some citizens in our service don't do the service justice, I think that can be said across all branches of the armed forces. Though you do have to question and completely investigate anyone not born on our soil who wants to join the military to gain citizenship, I'd rather have someone who is willing and wants to be in the military than someone who's just in it for the 9 to 5 and college money.

I also think that mandatory service for people is a good and bad thing. Good because I think it would give people a chance to "grow up" and really find out what they are made of. Boot camp did ( because it's nicer and gentler now days) agood job of that. Though I'm sure it's still not a cake walk today, standards have gotten lower and I don't entirely agree with that. You have standards for a reason, quality control. So now you have more sub standard people in the military IQ and physical fitness wise, and that becomes aliability to everyone around them. The problem is what do you do when your citizenry is less likely to join a volunteer force because of unpopular conflicts who's beginnings are questioned as being legitimate to begin with? It's a conundrum to be sure.

I spent 5 years in the Navy. WhenI first enlistedI thought that if you sign up to do the time, you ought to stick it out, anything less is weak and unpatriotic - I was 18 when I enlisted and was 5 days removed from graduating highschool at the time. Four years later and alot more knowledgeable, my views changed, my attitudes changed, and my desire to stay in changed. There are some people that are just not "suited" for military life, it's a hard life. Some people just don't do well at certain things, like being at sea. You can say what you want, you can take the "sea sickness" pills, but there are some folks who just get sick, no matter what. That ain't no fun at all, especially if your out to sea for months. I've been deployed and sick a few times, imagine your worst hang over lasting for days - I've seen people that sick, and basically being incapacitated. I was stuck carrying their load while they had their head in a garbage can for 48 hours or more. In certain situations, some people are just not a fit for military life. It's better to let those people out early, than make everyone else pay later on.

On the same note, if your leadership sucks, it drives people out. That's what happened to me. I was smart enough to know that things wouldn't change for me for a year and a half. Sure, I could have "sucked it up", but given the option of being free and dealing with pointless BS for a year and a half didn't seem worth it. Bad people can ruin any team, anywhere, any time. It's not a trait exclusive to just the military. Look at any group there is on the planet. Heck, Jim Sollo is a great example for the anti's, lol.

I think every citizen has an obligation to serve their nation, and you do that by being involved. Vote, pay attention to laws, get interested in your community. If you feel like serving, it has it's pro's and con's, just like anything in life, it's a compromise. Just make sure you know what your giving up, is worth what your going to get out of it.


The previous poster I quoted did not differentiate whether you were moving to America or were already here. I took the meaning of his comments that you cannot be a "citizen" period unless you served in the military, a notion I fully reject. People seem to forget the reasons why our military is so powerful. You have an incredible country where most people work and pay taxes for the payment of those that volunteer.Conscription has proven to be less effective than volunteering over the last several hundred years. There are over 300 million people in this country now and our military force is something like 2 million with several million other veterans. That type of thinking is gonnamake most of the country non-citizens..

America was not establishedby "forcing" people to do things they don't want to do... We already have enough of that as it is in this unconstitutional time period.

I attempted to join the Marine Corp and was medically rejected many years ago. Does that not make me worthy of citizenship? Does it only make me worthy if I make an attempt? I am a hard-wroking, tax paying, home owning, American citizen, who, like I said previously, is a member of the unorgnized militia per federal code.Many on this forumare in the same catagory. If the needs of America are such that "calling up" troops are necessary, then that code may be initiated and all the troops that are needed will be available.
 

bohdi

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Flintlock - I'm not saying it's a good idea that military service be required to be a citizen (ala starship troopers) - I meant to point out that some do use the military as a means of gaining citizenship. I also pointed out that civil service could be seen as something as simple as voting... that's all I meant. I wasn't intending to poke anyone in the eye :D
 

Flintlock

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Doug Huffman wrote:
Flintlock wrote:
What is this Starship Troopers...??

A title from the oeuvre that includes "An armed society is a polite society." Accepting one and rejecting the other out of hand seems a bit hypocritical.

Doug,

Not sure what you are trying to say or how I was being hypocritical specifically, but I do believe that an armed society is a polite society, indeed. However, I do not believe that forcing armement on "citizens" is the answer. You shouldn't have your rights forcedupon youor it is no longer a right, but an obligation. Next thing we would have is forced votingand so on and so forth...Starship Troopers contained a governmental system that we are frankly probably going to see in the future at some point and I hope I am not alive to see it when it happens.

As a side note: I think it is important for Americans to want to serve in the armed forces and help defend their country if they are able. I also think people should exercise their rights, including the carriage of arms both openly and concealed and I always encourage others to do so. However, I would never want a situation where that was forced upon us... It kinda takes away from the feeling of freedom to me..

Look at the Russian military. They have forced service and they have horrific morale issues and deserters.
 

Flintlock

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bohdi wrote:
Flintlock - I'm not saying it's a good idea that military service be required to be a citizen (ala starship troopers) - I meant to point out that some do use the military as a means of gaining citizenship. I also pointed out that civil service could be seen as something as simple as voting... that's all I meant. I wasn't intending to poke anyone in the eye :D
Thanks for the clarification bohdi, I wasn't sure then what you were trying to say. I am aware of the fact that some do gain citizenship by military means and I am not really sure how I feel about that, but it is what it is.

I'd like to see a reponse from the original poster that I quoted on this issue...
 

expvideo

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imperialism2024 wrote:
"Anyhow, my "civic duty" is sitting here with my AK, a couple mags, and a nice big crate of ammo. When the enemy finally invades, I'll be here waiting for them. Anyone who feels a citizen somehow owes the government more than that can kiss my ass."

+.9 (still working on the crate of ammo, then it will be +1)

I appreciate everyone who has served this country, with the exception of *cough* a certain individual *cough*, who does enough appreciating of his service for all of us. Just kidding, I even appreciate his. I am young, healthy and free durring a time of war. This is one of the first times in history that I could get married and start a family durring war-time without fear of being forced to serve because of the draft. I am only free to not serve because of those brave enough to volunteer. So those of you that are in the military and might doubt that fighting over a bowl of sand is really "defending freedom" just know that if nothing else you are defending mine. A lack of volunteers will never stop the government from going to war, so volunteers are what keeps us free here at home.
 

swillden

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WARCHILD wrote:
WhiteFeather: I don't agree with your conception of "self-sacrifice" as being smuggled into anything is right. Normaly I have 3 subjects I leave ALONE, Politics, Marriage, and RELIGION. But in this case, self sacrifice for another is still the highest gift and sacrifice one can make for another and should not be dimished in such a way as to lessen the gift of their life for another.
WARCHILD, I think you misunderstood what the Clemens quote was saying. It was not saying that sacrificing for others isn't good, it's saying that for a good man, it's not a sacrifice, it's just a necessary requirement to maintain one's integrity. Clemens' point was that a good man couldn't live with himself if he allowed others to suffer when it was in his power to do something about it. Others may call the result self-sacrifice, but it's really just a man living up to his own high standards.
 

swillden

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I don't think anyone has an obligation to serve in the military. I don't even think anyone has an obligation to defend his or her country -- lots of countries don't deserve defending.

In my case, I feel that I have an obligation to defend my country from invasion, and to serve it by being a good citizen. A good citizen's primary duty is to help ensure that the country remains worthy of defense and service.
 

Doug Huffman

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Flintlock wrote:
Starship Troopers contained a governmental system that we are frankly probably going to see in the future ...

You're saying that you read ST and disagree with military enfranchisement in that context only or that you did not read ST but saw the movie/cartoon and disagree with military enfranchisement in any context?

How would you describe or name the ST-government but constitutional federal republic? Hmmm, that sounds familiar!

Similarly, you have read Beyond This Horizon and agree that "an armed society is a polite society" in this context only or it feels good to say in any context?

You need to lift these sentiments of Heinlein's from their context knowingly or acknowledge that they are used without understanding of their provenance.
 

Flintlock

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Doug Huffman wrote:
Flintlock wrote:
Starship Troopers contained a governmental system that we are frankly probably going to see in the future ...

You're saying that you read ST and disagree with military enfranchisement in that context only or that you did not read ST but saw the movie/cartoon and disagree with military enfranchisement in any context?

How would you describe or name the ST-government but constitutional federal republic? Hmmm, that sounds familiar!

Similarly, you have read Beyond This Horizon and agree that "an armed society is a polite society" in this context only or it feels good to say in any context?

You need to lift these sentiments of Heinlein's from their context knowingly or acknowledge that they are used without understanding of their provenance.
Douglas - I find it ironic that you just recently discussed this very issue on another web site.

I understand the provenance of Heinlein's sentiments. It is common knowledge. I have not read either book you mentioned but I am familiar with them both and I have read excerpts. I realize that the movie version of STbutchered the literary work of Heinlein and that the governmental systemhe described in his book was vastlydifferent. I was referring to the movie version. Essentially a one-world-governmental system headed by a"Sky Marshal". Individual nation statuswas non-existent or at the very least, vastly differentand there were alsodistinct differences in statusbetween "civilians" and "citizens". I don't approve ofthe concept of having "special" classes of citizens in society and as I said previously, I don't think it should requiremilitary service to achieve whatever "status" there would be to achieve.

I also believe in and understandthe concept of having an "armed society" and I believe it to be something I would feel comfortable saying in any context.
 

savery

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I'll be "behind a blade of grass" for as long as I am alive and well. Othewise - the military really just isn't for me. Being blindly told to do something or be punished really goes against I believe.

Don't get my wrong, I have no problem with the military, and if it's your style, I support your decision. In fact I have many friends and family members that are either serving or have served (like my paternal grandfather - WWII, USN, Electrician's Mate) But just like everyone isn't cut out to be a nurse, not everyone is cut out to go into the military.

Don't forget, there are other ways to support national defense. (My maternal grandfather - WWII, the Martin Aircraft Company)

So just like my grandfathers, everyone can find their own way of serving. As for me, I stand with my own skillset. Should the time ever come, I'm prepared to defend my nation and what I believe in with my riflery skills, aviation experience, and maritime experience.

As far as involuntary service - hell no. That goes against everything this nation was built on. In my mind, it goes something like this - if the only way you can get any help with something is by forcing people into it, you need to rethink your situation.
 
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