• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Family of Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch seeks arrest

PrayingForWar

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2007
Messages
1,701
Location
The Real World.
:lol:

I'm sure that once I'm done with my homework (due in an hour and 15 minutes) I'll be in a much better mood.

This is one of those weeks that just needs to end. Way too much to deal with.

And I have a new reloading press (Hornady LnL AP) which I haven't even been able to play with yet. :cry:

We need a reloading thread. I was considering one of the cheaper LEE Loading sets. I'm a virgin to the endeavor, so any advice is valuable. Hornady is high dollar isn't it?
 

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
PFW I guess I'm inhuman as I don't have strong feelings for this case. Honestly I feel that we're simply missing too much info regarding this case. What was the kid doing that seemed suspicious? Who started the confrontation? Did the deceased actually attack the shooter like I've seen some say? Why is the media showing pictures of the deceased that are obviously several years old? Why was the race card thrown since the beginning? Why was someone who is very clearly latino and not white called white for so long?

There is simply too much unknown or distorted to make any real conclusions.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
We need a reloading thread. I was considering one of the cheaper LEE Loading sets. I'm a virgin to the endeavor, so any advice is valuable. Hornady is high dollar isn't it?

The press itself was around $420 shipped. But, of course, there is much additional expense what with dies/shellplate and components and other related and necessary tools ($35 for a scale, $45 for a vibratory tumbler, etc etc etc).

But I think it was a good deal. It comes with a coupon for 500 free bullets ($15 shipping), 185 gr JHP I believe. That's about $100 value right there, although of course one would be free to buy less expensive bullets, and from another mfg.

I really like the priming system, and the die bushings are also really neat. Also, I wanted to go progressive because the whole point is to enable me to shoot 100 rounds / week or so, and I really don't have time to load that quantity on a single stage.

I dunno, I'm pretty new to reloading. I just watched a bunch of videos and read a lot of forum discussions and reviews, and decided the LnL AP was the best bang for the buck. So far I think my decision was a good one.
 

PrayingForWar

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2007
Messages
1,701
Location
The Real World.
PFW I guess I'm inhuman as I don't have strong feelings for this case. Honestly I feel that we're simply missing too much info regarding this case. What was the kid doing that seemed suspicious? Who started the confrontation? Did the deceased actually attack the shooter like I've seen some say? Why is the media showing pictures of the deceased that are obviously several years old? Why was the race card thrown since the beginning? Why was someone who is very clearly latino and not white called white for so long?

There is simply too much unknown or distorted to make any real conclusions.

You do have some feelings or you wouldn't have responded at all. Not to say anyone who doesn't respond is inhuman just to CMA. There are A LOT OF STORIES OUT THERE, and a whole lot of bull$#!t. The leftist racebaiting media is surely going to do their best to make an issue out of it hoping to empower criminals by forcing public oppinion against SYG laws. From what I've heard and seen, plus the trusted oppinions of people I know my conclusion leads me too believe Mr Zimmerman was the aggressor. What I understand of the law regarding my duty as a carrier I'm not obligated to run away, but I have no authority to pursue. There's nothing unlawful in my pursuit if I choose to do so, and in fact in TX I can engage fleeing criminals even though I wouldn't want to.

It's sad this kid's life is over, I feel for his family.

I still maintain my concern over the callous disregard for the lives of thousands of black people that are murdered every year by other black people, but since the race baiters can not profit from it, there is no outrage.

Dip$#!t
 

Jack House

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2010
Messages
2,611
Location
I80, USA
PFW I guess I'm inhuman as I don't have strong feelings for this case.
Same here, but then many people would call me inhuman. Well, not quite as many in the last few months as the years before, but still.

No, there's not. I was going to ask you what the difference is, but this time you're so unequivocally wrong I'm not going to play any games.
The operative part of your dictionary quote is "in order to catch or attack." Interestingly, this is similar to the cause and effect fallacy. Because pursuing is always following, following must then also be pursuing. No, you're wrong.

follow [ˈfɒləʊ]vb1. to go or come after in the same direction he followed his friend home
2. (tr) to accompany; attend she followed her sister everywhere
3. to come after as a logical or natural consequence
4. (tr) to keep to the course or track of she followed the towpath
5. (tr) to act in accordance with; obey to follow instructions
6. (tr) to accept the ideas or beliefs of (a previous authority, etc.) he followed Donne in most of his teachings
7. to understand (an explanation, argument, etc.) the lesson was difficult to follow
8. to watch closely or continuously she followed his progress carefully
9. (tr) to have a keen interest in to follow athletics
10. (tr) to help in the cause of or accept the leadership of the men who followed Napoleon
11. (tr) Rare to earn a living at or in to follow the Navy
follow suit Cards
a. (Group Games / Card Games) to play a card of the same suit as the card played immediately before it
b. to do the same as someone else


n (Group Games / Billiards & Snooker) Billiards Snookera. a forward spin imparted to a cue ball causing it to roll after the object ball
b. a shot made in this way See also follow-on, follow out, follow through, follow up[Old English folgian; related to Old Frisian folgia, Old Saxon folgōn, Old High German folgēn]
followable adj




Follow can mean pursue, but it's not always the case and in the context of this thread, the difference needs to be highlighted.

Let's use an example:

I drive a friend to Houston so that they may pick up a car, we drive back in separate vehicles. My friend doesn't know how to get home, so I take the lead and they follow me. It would be inappropriate to describe this as a pursuit.

Here's another example:

I'm working as an undercover security guard at a retail store. I spot someone that may be a shoplifter, so I discretely follow this individual around the store to ensure that they are not in fact attempting to steal. I have no intention of stopping this individual unless I catch them shoplifting. This is not a pursuit, it is following. It can, however, turn into a pursuit.
 

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
Jack House maybe you'll have better luck pointing out that difference between following vs pursuit than I did back in post #61 which magically seemed to get ignored.
 

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
SNIP

It's sad this kid's life is over, I feel for his family.


And personally I don't really feel that bad right now. I'm neutral and while there is a bit of remorse for his family, I just don't know enough of the actual facts for me to be comfortable leaning one way or the other. Too much of the story is missing and the media has simply distorted too much of what has been released for me to be comfortable trusting the news reports enough to come to a conclusion. If it turns out that Martin truely was innocent then I'll feel worse for the family, but likewise if it turns out that Martin was a thug who ended up ambushing someone who had been following him then all I can say is at least there's one less thug on the streets.

For me one of the biggest issues are the blatant manipulation of what the deceased looks like and not knowing what actually happened leading up to the shooting. While I know it is "profiling," having an up-to-date picture of him in his normal attire would go a decent way in backing up one side's version of events as it helps build the bigger picture of what the deceased was really like. Instead we get a picture that is 3+ years old and does nothing to show what type of attitude/persona the kid showed day-to-day. Should the kid dress and carry himself like a thug then that helps back up Zimmerman's story (but does not instantly make it true). Likewise if he regularly dressed in a manner that isn't associated so much with crime/violence then that would help support Martin's parents story (but again, doesn't instantly make it true).

Also there's obviously the issue with what happened to cause the altercation that led to Zimmerman getting a bloodied nose and back of head/neck. Did the kid ambush him as someone else suggested? Did he grab the kid who then proceeded to defend himself (and to me making sure that one can't physically grab/pursue you again is still defense)? Were words exchanged that would reasonably be viewed as egging someone on?
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Aggressor may not be the correct descriptor for Mr. Zimmerman at this point. It may be true that the facts will show that Mr. Zimmerman was the aggressor, then again, the facts may show that Mr. Zimmerman was not the aggressor.

Mr. Zimmerman 'following' Master Martin may have been a pursuit in an effort to overtake [4a]. Or, it may be Mr. Zimmerman was 'following' to watch steadily [8a], as in <followed the flight of the ball>.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/follow

Top of the hour Fox News, on the radio, 5 AM local, described Mr. Zimmerman as a 'white Hispanic'. Master Martin was not likewise described as a 'black African-American'.

Fighting words.

http://www.bsos.umd.edu/gvpt/gvpt339/fightingwords.html
 

wrightme

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
5,574
Location
Fallon, Nevada, USA
I agree. But then, neither were any of my (actual) arguments.




And you have offered no defense of your position whatsoever.

Explain how one may "follow" without "pursuing".

It is simple, and not in need of explanation.


There isn't any true evidence that he was in pursuit. If there were, it would be valid to state that he was. Until there is evidence of pursuit, it is a simple conjecture.
 

wrightme

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
5,574
Location
Fallon, Nevada, USA
PFW I guess I'm inhuman as I don't have strong feelings for this case. Honestly I feel that we're simply missing too much info regarding this case. What was the kid doing that seemed suspicious? Who started the confrontation? Did the deceased actually attack the shooter like I've seen some say? Why is the media showing pictures of the deceased that are obviously several years old? Why was the race card thrown since the beginning? Why was someone who is very clearly latino and not white called white for so long?

There is simply too much unknown or distorted to make any real conclusions.

Exactly. As in many cases where emotions take over, conjecture seems to override facts, and it is getting tried in the court of public opinion based upon emotions as opposed to facts.
 

wrightme

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
5,574
Location
Fallon, Nevada, USA
Jack House maybe you'll have better luck pointing out that difference between following vs pursuit than I did back in post #61 which magically seemed to get ignored.

LOL, I have my doubts. Some people do NOT want to accept or evaluate information contrary to their chosen position.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
LOL, I have my doubts. Some people do NOT want to accept or evaluate information contrary to their chosen position.

You still haven't offered anything other than assertion.

At least Jack House tried:

The operative part of your dictionary quote is "in order to catch or attack." Interestingly, this is similar to the cause and effect fallacy. Because pursuing is always following, following must then also be pursuing. No, you're wrong.

Splitting hairs. Who knows what his intent was? We can only describe his actions, not the unknowable intent behind them. And, for the record, when the word was first used, there was no intent to imply a necessary intent to "catch or attack". Nor is such "operative".

For instance, another definition from the same dictionary:

pur·sue (pr-s)
v. pur·sued, pur·su·ing, pur·sues
v.tr.
1. To follow in an effort to overtake or capture; chase: a fox that was pursued by hounds.
2. To strive to gain or accomplish: pursue lofty political goals.
3. To proceed along the course of; follow: a ship that pursued the southern course.

So, clearly, while an intent to "catch or attack" may be implied when one is referring to one's own behavior, or in a context where intent is evident, it cannot be an operative aspect of the meaning when describing the behavior of another, where intent is unknowable (someone's intent may be easily discernible, but it is clearly not here). That is to say, describing his behavior as "pursuit" cannot reasonably interpreted as suggesting knowledge of his intent, and therefore cannot be reasonably interpreted to refer to his intent. Only Zimmerman knows his intent.


I'm working as an undercover security guard at a retail store. I spot someone that may be a shoplifter, so I discretely follow this individual around the store to ensure that they are not in fact attempting to steal. I have no intention of stopping this individual unless I catch them shoplifting. This is not a pursuit, it is following. It can, however, turn into a pursuit.

At least this context is similar; it is not, however, identical. Consider the difference between "discretely following someone around a store" and following a person running away, within a gated neighborhood. The former may not be pursuit, but the latter inarguably is.

The difference is critical; in the former case you're merely watching a person whose course may be indirect. In the latter, you're pursuing a person who is running away from you. And, remember, in the case at hand, Zimmerman claimed on the phone that the other guy was running away.

It is simple, and not in need of explanation.

Unsupported assertion. I can as easily say the same.

There isn't any true evidence that he was in pursuit. If there were, it would be valid to state that he was. Until there is evidence of pursuit, it is a simple conjecture.

He was on the phone with the police, who advised him not to follow, which he admitted to doing, presumably to catch the guy in the act of a crime.

And, as I pointed out, his intent need not be to catch in order for it to be pursuit; this may be an implication in certain contexts, but it's clearly not a necessary element in this context.

Nobody has made a compelling argument that Zimmerman could be following this guy, who was running away, without pursuing him. Unrelated or only tangentially related scenarios do not count as a compelling argument.

While I agree that following may not suggest pursuit in every context, I maintain that in this context to follow is to pursue.
 
Last edited:

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Exactly. As in many cases where emotions take over, conjecture seems to override facts, and it is getting tried in the court of public opinion based upon emotions as opposed to facts.

It's impossible to know whether Zimmerman's story is true. If it is, he is innocent. Hopefully the police have evidence by which they can make an accurate determination.
 
H

Herr Heckler Koch

Guest
It's impossible to know whether Zimmerman's story is true. If it is, he is innocent. Hopefully the police have evidence by which they can make an accurate determination.
Did you see the CNN transcript of the police report that Z was bloodied and messed, as from mutual combat?

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/2...os-after-florida-teen-is-shot/?iref=allsearch
Officers Timothy Smith and Ricardo Alayo said they noted a black male in a gray hooded sweatshirt lying face-down in the grass, as well as a white male in the area.

"Zimmerman stated that he had shot the subject and was still armed," Smith wrote in a police report.

Smith said he asked Zimmerman to hand over the weapon, a Kel Tec 9 mm, and handcuffed him.

"While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and he was covered in grass, as if he was laying on his back on the ground," Smith wrote in the police report. "Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and the back of the head."
 
Last edited:

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
So what. I've started fights when I was young and dumb and got my ass kicked, deservedly so looking back. Just cuz he may have been losing a fight does not mean he did not start the fight.

More facts will be required. Remember, it will be Mr. Zimmerman's word and witness accounts that will tell the story. the truth of this matter will never be known.
 

wrightme

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
5,574
Location
Fallon, Nevada, USA
You still haven't offered anything other than assertion.
There truly is no NEED to offer anything else. :rolleyes:
marshaul said:
At least Jack House tried:



Splitting hairs. Who knows what his intent was? We can only describe his actions, not the unknowable intent behind them. And, for the record, when the word was first used, there was no intent to imply a necessary intent to "catch or attack". Nor is such "operative".
That is MY point. You, OTOH, are assuming intent.


marshaul said:
So, clearly, while an intent to "catch or attack" may be implied when one is referring to one's own behavior, or in a context where intent is evident, it cannot be an operative aspect of the meaning when describing the behavior of another, where intent is unknowable (someone's intent may be easily discernible, but it is clearly not here). That is to say, describing his behavior as "pursuit" cannot reasonably interpreted as suggesting knowledge of his intent, and therefore cannot be reasonably interpreted to refer to his intent. Only Zimmerman knows his intent.
So, in spite of your multiple posts to the contrary, you do NOT know if he was pursuing or not.

marshaul said:
At least this context is similar; it is not, however, identical. Consider the difference between "discretely following someone around a store" and following a person running away, within a gated neighborhood. The former may not be pursuit, but the latter inarguably is.

The difference is critical; in the former case you're merely watching a person whose course may be indirect. In the latter, you're pursuing a person who is running away from you. And, remember, in the case at hand, Zimmerman claimed on the phone that the other guy was running away.



Unsupported assertion. I can as easily say the same.



He was on the phone with the police, who advised him not to follow, which he admitted to doing, presumably to catch the guy in the act of a crime.

And, as I pointed out, his intent need not be to catch in order for it to be pursuit; this may be an implication in certain contexts, but it's clearly not a necessary element in this context.

Nobody has made a compelling argument that Zimmerman could be following this guy, who was running away, without pursuing him. Unrelated or only tangentially related scenarios do not count as a compelling argument.
While I agree that following may not suggest pursuit in every context, I maintain that in this context to follow is to pursue.

Neither is there a compelling argument that he WAS 'in pursuit.'
 

9026543

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2009
Messages
509
Location
Southern MO
Original news report on the incident before the liberal main stream news media and Al Sharpton got hold of the story. Eye witness seems to back Zimmerman up on his account that martin was beating him up. Remember that Travon Martin was a 6' 2" football player not the little ***** faced wimp that the MSM picture is running. Also he was serving a 5 day suspension from school so that might shed some light on him being a little understood boy.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/new...led-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
The fact Zimmerman was bloody makes no impression on me, we still don't know what led to him getting bloody other than he followed someone he considered (insert bigotry here) against 911 advice.

Maybe the kid was defending himself against an unlawful detention? He was the one leaving the scene we do know that.
 

jbone

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,230
Location
WA
The media and Martin partisans have created an impression that George Zimmerman chased down a little black boy, beat him, and then shot him. Any contrary evidence tends to disappear in the growing cries to short circuit the legal process and convict Zimmerman now.

I do not believe it is a coincidence that this works to the political advantage of the administration and the Democrats. it energizes their base.


No you nailed it.

Today the HEAD RACE BAITER of the United States just weighted in on national TV, is this POS the propaganda machine or what!


 

09jisaac

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
1,692
Location
Louisa, Kentucky
The fact Zimmerman was bloody makes no impression on me, we still don't know what led to him getting bloody other than he followed someone he considered (insert bigotry here) against 911 advice.

Maybe the kid was defending himself against an unlawful detention? He was the one leaving the scene we do know that.

How do you get that he considered Trey "(insert bigotry here)", unless you know something that I don't know. I heard the tapes were he supposedly says "f****** c**n" and I completely missed that as words. It sounded to me more like heavy breathing. It could have been anything. I don't think anyone here could say with 100% certainty that he said what people are saying he said (If I am listening to the same police tape everyone else is). I think media is just saying it is racially motivated and everyone is following along.

Also, I would say that crime and other dishonest acts is what separates blacks from n****** (whites and white trash, etc). So, if I have reason to believe that a black is about to commit a crime/has committed a crime then I have reason to believe that he/she is a n******. That doesn't mean that I am against blacks as a whole or any individual because the color of their skin. So even if he DOES make a racial slur (I never said he didn't) doesn't mean it was racially motivated.
 
Last edited:
Top