First LEO encounter... Confronted at gunpoint

[charlie12]

Art. 215.1. Temporary questioning of persons in public places; frisk and search for weapons

A. A law enforcement officer may stop a person in a public place whom he reasonably suspects is committing, has committed, or is about to commit an offense and may demand of him his name, address, and an explanation of his actions.

B. When a law enforcement officer has stopped a person for questioning pursuant to this Article and reasonably suspects that he is in danger, he may frisk the outer clothing of such person for a dangerous weapon. If the law enforcement officer reasonably suspects the person possesses a dangerous weapon, he may search the person.

C. If the law enforcement officer finds a dangerous weapon, he may take and keep it until the completion of the questioning, at which time he shall either return it, if lawfully possessed, or arrest such person.

D. During detention of an alleged violator of any provision of the motor vehicle laws of this state, an officer may not detain a motorist for a period of time longer than reasonably necessary to complete the investigation of the violation and issuance of a citation for the violation, absent reasonable suspicion of additional criminal activity. However, nothing herein shall prohibit a peace officer from compelling or instructing the motorist to comply with administrative or other legal requirements of Title 32 or Title 47 of the Louisiana Revised Statutes of 1950.

Added by Acts 1968, No. 305, §1. Amended by Acts 1982, No. 686, §1; Acts 1983, 1st Ex. Sess., No. 32, §1; Acts 1997, No. 759, §3, eff. July 10, 1997.

 

[george everette sibley]

If you're going to quote something, quote this

"The exercise of a right cannot be converted to a crime."

Any of you page fillers care to guess the source of this famous quote?

 

[4sooth]

OC Detention

Quoting from State v Ferrand(Louisiana) ---"the public display of an openly carried handgun is not a crime in Louisiana and does not, alone, constitute probable cause for arrest".

RS14:46.1 Illegal detention while armed with a deadly weapon. A felony--carries mandatory jail time.

Harlow v Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. 800. --all public officials are responsible for knowing the law governing their individual actions.

Also State v Snoddy 389 So. 2nd 377, State v Bowen, 376 So. 2nd 147. Also see Louisiana AG opinions No. 78-795, 79-1212, 78-1288.

U.S. v Ubiles, (paraphrased)---the mere presence of a firearm does not justify an officer stopping a suspect(or any other person) if such activity is lawful.

These are a good start for your reply to the So.

 

[estcrh]

Email I got this morning


Mr. Fauntleroy,

We received your letter and acknowledge your concerns. After reviewing your letter, it is my understanding that you felt the Deputies had no right to detain, and disarm you. Under LA CCRP 215.1 a law enforcement officer has the right to stop a person in a public place who he reasonably suspects is committing, has committed, or is about to commit an offense. The officer can demand the persons name, address, and an explanation of his actions. It also states that if the officer finds a dangerous weapon, he may take and keep it until the completion of the questioning. The Louisiana Constitution does state the following; "The right of each citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged, but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to prohibit the carrying of weapons concealed on the person. My recommendation to you is that you apply for a concealed hangun permit if you plan on carrying your weapon openly on a regular basis. If not, there is a good chance you will be stopped and questioned on a regular basis. One of the reasons for this is due to the fact that the law prohibits certain individuals from carrying a weapon. Law enforcement has no way of knowing if that person is restricted or not unless they stop question and run that subject. I will speak with the Deputy in order to see if in fact he understands the state Constitution regarding to the above matter. I hope this answers any questions you might have had.

Captain J. Snell
Internal Affairs

I am willing to contribute $100 towards hiring an attorney to give all of us who open carry a written legal opinion as to the ability of a law enforcement officers right to stop and question us any time they feel like it when we are open carrying and clearly not concealing a weapon and therefore for not committing any crime that would allow our harassment. Also for a legal interpretation of the statement by Captain J.Snell. Anyone else? Maybe LOCAL can establish a fund for this purpose. If the actions being described are not allowed by the current laws and or statutes then this needs to be nipped in the bud asap.

 

[NRAMARINE]

I'll anty up.

 

[4sooth]

I'm in for financial support as well.

 

[I OC nothingwronghere]

Guy's yall are awesome I'll try and ante up too, Just depends on what part of the week this goes down Haha, But let me know

 

[I OC nothingwronghere]

It just show's you how much he looked into the complaint too, I'm only 19 can't get a CHP for A WHILE.....

 

[kwikrnu]

It sounds to me as if you were mistreated and your rights violated. I do not understand how they claim RAS.

 

[estcrh]

Maybe DZelenka can recommend an attorney who could help or would at least have an idea on how to approach dealing with this. Would someone from LOCAL would be willing to comment on the possibility of setting up a sort of legal defense fund to hire an attorney to help guide us in matters like this? This is something anyone would be able to contribute to with out having to leave home or take any risks except parting with a few $.... Can law enforcement at any time stop us, point a gun at us, ask for identification, take our guns when we are doing nothing but legally carrying our guns in the open for anyone to see and not attempting to conceal them...First they say its not legal to open carry...now that that has been proven to be wrong they try a new tactic...harassment!!!!! ( How do I know if your a criminal or not? I have to check you out!)

 

[Slidell Jim]

It just show's you how much he looked into the complaint too, I'm only 19 can't get a CHP for A WHILE.....

i CAUGHT THAT TOO!!!

 

[brent1865]

I will put up a couple hundred bucks as well. I will talk to the attorney who handles things for my corporate business. He is a very conservative guy politicaly and I would bet he would be willing to help us out. If he doesn't feel it's in his area of law I will get a recommendation from him for someone who would be willing to help. Anything in particular you all want me to bring up to him when I see him on tueaday? If he is willing to help what is our plan from that stage. Have him act on the situation in this thread and be available for all of us if situations arrive and to answer general questions from the members here? Give me your thoughts so I can put it o
all out on the table for him this week.

 

[estcrh]

I will put up a couple hundred bucks as well. I will talk to the attorney who handles things for my corporate business. He is a very conservative guy politicaly and I would bet he would be willing to help us out. If he doesn't feel it's in his area of law I will get a recommendation from him for someone who would be willing to help. Anything in particular you all want me to bring up to him when I see him on tueaday? If he is willing to help what is our plan from that stage. Have him act on the situation in this thread and be available for all of us if situations arrive and to answer general questions from the members here? Give me your thoughts so I can put it o
all out on the table for him this week.

Brent, that is a very generous offer. I think its safe to say that at some point the officers involved realized that open carrying was legal because the young man being harassed was not arrested. Since we know that open carry is legal (except in certain circumstances) then at this point its probably best to contact the D.A.s office that is responsible for making the final determination on the legality of an actions when contacting citizens.

The question is....can someone who is LEGALLY going about their business be stopped and harassed at any officers whim? Police officers are not attorneys and frequently take actions based on their own personal beliefs when not given direct orders on how to proceed when confronted by certain situations and open carry seems to be one of those situations.

Officers need to be told by commanders that open carry is legal when done properly, they need to be instructed on when open carry is legal and when it is not and they need to be informed of what they as officers can do when they encounter a citizen open carrying and what they CANT do. A written legal opinion which addresses these points would be helpful if one could be obtained...something in writing which could be emailed to various law enforcement agencies(and their commanders) in the state and given to individual officers would go a long way to giving us some protection from arbitrary harassment.

I know this is not the same as going to court and getting a legal ruling but it would be a start at least.

 

[brent1865]

As far as I OC's situation he can take whatever action he Feels will be best. I am going to talk to the lawyer just about things in general and if he agrees to help then I OC can use him if he wants to take that route. I would love some case law and or any past judgements in writing or as a website to refernece for all of us with any future LEO encounters. I don't have a lot of time to take a lead but possibly we could get a group of 4 or 5 that can work together with any issues. I wish we didn't even have to worry about problems of violations of rights or other LEO trouble but until the general public is more aware of OC then I feel it is our job to promote it. I am new so I have no idea how many people we have from this site in La but we should make growing it a priority. One other priority is if we can get some case law is to send it to every LE office that we know with a request for the commanding officer to breif his staff on the current OC laws of the state. I'll do what I can to help with anything that needs to be done to further OC acceptance.

 

[georg jetson]

There's no issue with whether or not the stop was legal... the rules of criminal procedure are CLEAR... If the OP's facts are correct, the deputy acted without probable cause... PERIOD.

 

[estcrh]

As far as I OC's situation he can take whatever action he Feels will be best. I am going to talk to the lawyer just about things in general and if he agrees to help then I OC can use him if he wants to take that route. I would love some case law and or any past judgements in writing or as a website to refernece for all of us with any future LEO encounters. I don't have a lot of time to take a lead but possibly we could get a group of 4 or 5 that can work together with any issues. I wish we didn't even have to worry about problems of violations of rights or other LEO trouble but until the general public is more aware of OC then I feel it is our job to promote it. I am new so I have no idea how many people we have from this site in La but we should make growing it a priority. One other priority is if we can get some case law is to send it to every LE office that we know with a request for the commanding officer to breif his staff on the current OC laws of the state. I'll do what I can to help with anything that needs to be done to further OC acceptance.

Yes, if there could be some written information of any kind coming from an attorney that everyone who wishes could send to the law enforcement entity in their immediate area that would be helpful, if you do find a lawyer who can help with this I would be more than happy to contribute $$$!! I received a written opinion from an attorney as to the legality of open carry a while back...the attorney listed all the statutes and rulings that helped to show that I could open carry legally and I could supply anyone who wants a copy of this opinion, now whats needed is some clear statutes and or rulings showing that its not legal to stop and question someone who is simply open carrying their weapon and not committing any crimes.

 

[estcrh]

There's no issue with whether or not the stop was legal... the rules of criminal procedure are CLEAR... If the OP's facts are correct, the deputy acted without probable cause... PERIOD.

Until law enforcement officials openly agree with this then being right does no good in this state....there are 2 ways to go about this...in court...or by gathering evidence in the form of statutes and rulings and presenting these to the law enforcement officials and getting them to agree that they can not continue to stop open carry advocates without reason. If you know any other way to get them to stop their harassment I am open to suggestions.

 

[georg jetson]

Until law enforcement officials openly agree with this then being right does no good in this state....there are 2 ways to go about this...in court...or by gathering evidence in the form of statutes and rulings and presenting these to the law enforcement officials and getting them to agree that they can not continue to stop open carry advocates without reason. If you know any other way to get them to stop their harassment I am open to suggestions.

In this case, being legally correct does just fine. Their is NO question that OCing does not provide probable cause for a Terry stop. In my opinion, even the IA officer that responded knew he was BSing... just an attempt to intimidate a young citizen. A well written response to the STPSO should do the trick... unless of course the STPSO would like to enjoy legal issues similar to the NOPD.

 

[estcrh]

In this case, being legally correct does just fine. Their is NO question that OCing does not provide probable cause for a Terry stop. In my opinion, even the IA officer that responded knew he was BSing... just an attempt to intimidate a young citizen. A well written response to the STPSO should do the trick... unless of course the STPSO would like to enjoy legal issues similar to the NOPD.

Without some kind of admission that they understand what you are saying...what will keep this from happening over and over again to different people in different towns and cities?...court?...and once again we are faced with the same issue..who can and will be the next court test case...to keep this from being repeated again and again you need to do more than being just right...I am not arguing your logic..I am arguing that law enforcement entities in La. do not stop doing anything with out the commanders ( or courts) delivering orders to the officers that they obey the already established laws.

 

[Masher]

Let's get that video. I will get with you Monday to subpoena it.