Funny CCW Story

[PT111]

What are your guys opinion on my post about drinking in moderation over dinner, whilst carrying?

This isn't actually about your post but drinking in moderation. After many years of imbibing on a very often regular basis I have now reduced my drinking to a regular rate of about one beer every two years. I just don't find the opportunities where I want one any more very often. But what I have found over the years is that as much as the actual impairment of the alcohol effects is the attitude that goes along with it. What I mean by that is though experience that the mature (40 year old father) adult having a beer or glass of wine with dinner will not demonstrate much effect at all from the drink. He may have some judgement impaired but will normally demonstrate good reasoning skills etc. On the other hand the young (21 year old singel college student) having a beer with his pizza hanging out with others his age or even on a date will for some reason all of a sudden think that first beer has transformed him into some other being.

This thought change or whatever also effects many "adults" no matter the age, not to challenge my earlier statement about the mature adult but..... We have all seen it where it seems that when one person starts drinking they get sad or happy or sometimes mean. Some people just seem to have a big personality change when they start drinking even before they finish the first drink.


I see nothing wrong with most people being able to have a beer or glass of wine while carrying. For most the effects will be minimal if they normally use good judgement. Howeve there are some that shouldn't have that first drink whether carrying or not. They can't seem to use good judgement while sober. As for prescription drugs one should read the warning lables and pay attention to them. My wife and I are sometimes prescribed the same drug and it will have complete opposite sided effects on us. In fact one was a wonder drug to her and I was alergic to it and had to stop after breaking out in sores.

 

[eye95]

Being that alcohol works against good judgment...

 

[Grapeshot]

Then there is the public's perception of OCers - something I wish to improve upon, not diminish.

Individuals make choices - we as a group enjoy the benefit thereof.

That is not to say "don't." It is to say "think."

 

[SavageOne]

Then there is the public's perception of OCers - something I wish to improve upon, not diminish.

Individuals make choices - we as a group enjoy the benefit thereof.

That is not to say "don't." It is to say "think."

Are you saying that the sight of a person OCing and having a beer at his local watering hole will diminish the public's perception of OC? I keep hearing people say that we are trying to normalize OC to the general public. What is more normalizing than acting normal? If I would normally go out and meet a friend for a beer or two, not break any laws or hurt anyone else, hop in my car and go home after, why would the addition of an OCed gun change that perception. I personally think that the sight of person participating in an act that many others around them are(i.e. having a drink) and doing so responsibly would go farther toward creating a positive feeling for OC than acting like the mere presence of a firearm will instantly prejudice any and all who see it.

 

[Grapeshot]

Then there is the public's perception of OCers - something I wish to improve upon, not diminish.

Individuals make choices - we as a group enjoy the benefit thereof.

That is not to say "don't." It is to say "think."

Are you saying that the sight of a person OCing and having a beer at his local watering hole will diminish the public's perception of OC? I keep hearing people say that we are trying to normalize OC to the general public. What is more normalizing than acting normal? If I would normally go out and meet a friend for a beer or two, not break any laws or hurt anyone else, hop in my car and go home after, why would the addition of an OCed gun change that perception. I personally think that the sight of person participating in an act that many others around them are(i.e. having a drink) and doing so responsibly would go farther toward creating a positive feeling for OC than acting like the mere presence of a firearm will instantly prejudice any and all who see it.

No I didn't say any of those things, nor did I slant my statement with an "any and all" bent.

I do not castigate people for doing adult things responsibly. My only point was that it is good to be aware of how we contribute to our own image in the things that we do. We are involved in a war of public relations and our perceived image is part and parcel of that.

How I feel about this matter ought to have been quite clear by the last line of my post: "That is not to say "don't." It is to say "think."

 

[protect our rights]

This reminds me of my lesson of how I learned of the impairment that drinking alcohol causes.

When I was in my 20's (I'm closer to 40 now), I road raced motorcycles at the club level. During one of my racing classes to obtain my license, one of the instructors (who was an active Navy fighter pilot) went over the effects of drinking as it relates to reflexes. Being young, cocky, & stupid, I challenged him about this and said that if I had a beer or two it would not *drastically* affect my reaction times. Boy, was I dead wrong....

To preface the next part, for the following test we had cleared this with local law enforcement who participated (we also had EMTs on hand at the track). In addition to this, I was wearing racing leathers/boots/helmet/body armor. This was a very controlled environment. Do not try this yourself without the above precautions.

We set up a braking marker showing where I had to start braking, as well as a limit line to stop at. I hopped on my bike and ran 3 consecutive control runs (without alcohol in my system) at 25MPH. I hit the limit line exactly all three times give or take 1-2". Then I had a beer, waited (and after blowing into the breathalyzer to make sure the beer kicked in) made 3 runs. I was definitely off by more than a few inches. We did this until I had 3-4 beers in my system and I was blowing close to a .07. I made one last attempt. I was off by about 3 feet (I either overshot the marker or braked too hard, ending up way ahead of the cones). Forgive the pun, but this was a very sobering experience.

I have to say that after the 3 or 4 beers, I still "felt" totally in control and maybe felt a very slight buzz if anything (I'm a big guy who can handle his booze after all). However, the test proved that I was not in complete control of my body. I don't know if the same test has been conducted with firearms, but I can guarantee you are going to be off your mark if you have to shoot. What if your shot goes wild in that stressful moment? No one can predict how they will function under stress, especially while intoxicated. Sure, your gun may be holstered, but the question really is: What if you have to shoot? If you can't shoot straight or make correct judgments, then you might as well not being carrying at all.

Writing the above make me think about the Arizona shooting recently. I seem to remember that Joe Zamudio (the armed citizen who ran over to help) said that it was very confusing as to who the shooter was. One of the bystanders had been holding the gun (securing it) as the others were restraining Jared Loughner. This shows you that you need all your marbles together when something like this happens. It sounds like it would have been really easy to make a bad judgement call and shoot the bystander holding the gun, thinking that he was the shooter. These types of split second/life changing decisions are best made sober...

With all due respect we have mentioned that driving a car intoxicated and having a holstered gun are two different things. Like I said I have a beer or two over dinner from time to time while carrying. If an armed robber came in and was robbing the place I seriously doubt this amount of alcohol would make me start shooting wildly. Your last statement implies that no one anywhere anytime should drink alcohol because a freak tragedy like Tuscon will happen near you. I for one will continue on with my life making my own good judgment call on a day to day bases.

 

[eye95]

That is after the fact.

Booze works against good judgment, no fault in your logic, it does not follow that good judgment will not be maintained. Individual behavior after consumption is the point, not the consumption its self. Just as open carry does not a criminal make, unless OC is illegal.

Alcohol consumption while carrying is behavior. Stupid behavior. Behavior with predictable results over time.

 

[SavageOne]

With respect Grapeshot, this is also what you have said.

It may or may not be technically legal to have an adult beverage while carrying - it depends on the state. It is decidedly not directly beneficial to our image - something many work very hard at protecting. Frequently planned events go so far as taking the position that imbibing is not welcomed. It is all about image and public relations.

Everything else here is somewhat off target, not to the point.

You state that while it may or may not be legal to have an adult beverage...it is not beneficial to our image

By acclimation, guns and alcohol are NOT a good mix.

Those that make bad choices must live with the results of their personal decisions.

You never prefaced it with amount or if they were acting responsibly.

What has been said is that we all make conscious choices and that those choices should be well informed and responsible. Part of satisfying that criteria for me is to not imbibe when I am carrying a gun - period.

Would I criticize someone for so defending themselves when intoxicated - No.

Would I criticize the same person for getting intoxicated while carrying - Yes.

You state one of the criteria for being, in your opinion, informed and responsible when you carry a gun is not imbibing. Is it really to great a stretch to assume that this is the same criteria you use when assessing if others are acting responsible?

No I didn't say any of those things, nor did I slant my statement with an "any and all" bent.

I do not castigate people for doing adult things responsibly. My only point was that it is good to be aware of how we contribute to our own image in the things that we do. We are involved in a war of public relations and our perceived image is part and parcel of that.

How I feel about this matter ought to have been quite clear by the last line of my post: "That is not to say "don't." It is to say "think."

I hope you can understand now why I wondered about your post. You state you wish to improve the public's perception of OC. I would assume you mean by acting, as you say, in an informed and responsible way. As I have stated I also assume you use the same criteria for others that you use for yourself, yet you have stated that would mean not imbibing any alcohol while carrying.

Regardless of your statements about "don't" and "think", your other posts paint a different picture.

 

[DevinWKuska]

Just a few thoughts..

This story is about CC not OC thus it should never have been posted on THIS forum

I am pretty sure EVERY firearm I have purchased says multiple times in the owners manual(which you should read before you touch your purchase) to avoid using alcoholic drinks or other mind altering substances, whilst in possesion. Now I realize we live in a day and age that makes us warn people coffee is hot and smoking will kill you.. but seems like it was put there for a reason.

I personally have had only a few instances where I have consumed alcohol and been armed. However I believe I had 1 drink in all those cases. Other then that I steer away from drinking in general(been kicked out of too many bars when I was younger and unarmed hehe).

The OP stated he/she(seems up for debate) was DRUNK not drinking moderately. I feel that all the comments as to drinking in moderation are valid however not related to the OPs statements. To which I would question to anyone who is armed while drunk how effectively do you think you will be able to defend yourself against a sober BG? IMO your motor functions would be so diminished(again if you are DRUNK not drinking in moderation) that it would not be so difficult for an unarmed BG to take your firearm away from you. I know from experience from defending myself from drunks with knives/bottles/ect.

As too who is MO bar lawyer or not, and the terms of handling... I personally wouldnt take any Lawyers "Free" advice or understanding of. As I am sure we all can agree there are far too many LEO's who dont know the facts, and those are the ones likely to drop you where you stand. Additionally I wouldnt be willing to risk my freedom on the hope that the judge or jury will agree with your understanding of touch or handles. I see all to often a judge make a ruling to make an example out of someone. I refuse to be that guy, especially if you have had even 1 drink in public. No need to feed ammuntion to anti-gun folks. I have a hard enough with Rednecks with big guns and bad attitudes on base.... dont need drunk idiots with guns off base

 

[Grapeshot]

With respect Grapeshot, this is also what you have said.

You state that while it may or may not be legal to have an adult beverage...it is not beneficial to our image

See post #114
I do not castigate people for doing adult things responsibly. My only point was that it is good to be aware of how we contribute to our own image in the things that we do. We are involved in a war of public relations and our perceived image is part and parcel of that.

How I feel about this matter ought to have been quite clear by the last line of my post: "That is not to say "don't." It is to say "think."

You never prefaced it with amount or if they were acting responsibly.

Nor will I, I am not the judge.

You state one of the criteria for being, in your opinion, informed and responsible when you carry a gun is not imbibing. Is it really to great a stretch to assume that this is the same criteria you use when assessing if others are acting responsible?

"You" in this case was clearly stated as "I" do not imbibe. One should never "assume" anything - the old saw on that is still applicable. I don't know why you appear to be attempting to lead me in a certain direction but I assure you it won't happen.

My intent as stated before was and is to cause people to think about their actions.

I hope you can understand now why I wondered about your post. You state you wish to improve the public's perception of OC. I would assume you mean by acting, as you say, in an informed and responsible way. As I have stated I also assume you use the same criteria for others that you use for yourself, yet you have stated that would mean not imbibing any alcohol while carrying.

Repeat: Do not assume. AGAIN: My standard for myself. Clear enough I would say.

What I might or might not use as my personal standard does not automatically imply specific criticism of others. As an example: whether I choose to have children and my reasons for same are not imposed on anyone else. I will share my thinking, but you must decide for yourself.

Regardless of your statements about "don't" and "think", your other posts paint a different picture.

No sir. You paint or rather seem to attempt to paint a different picture. There is no finite point/answer to this discussion nor will I be dragged into making one. I have encouraged people to think and have offered my personal choice on the matter. What you or others do is beyond my control except where I have specific authority i.e in my house or vehicle.

*************************************

I find this entire exchange wearisome and not of benefit to the membership. I will exit this discussion with the above replies - nothing more that I can say. Perhaps you will be so gracious as as to do likewise.

With all due respect, sir.

 

[Grapeshot]

This story is about CC not OC thus it should never have been posted on THIS forum

Not quite so. While the forum is pointedly about and for OC, the General Forum is for almost anything else related to RKBA.

Snip from Rule 8: All gun rights discussions not directly related to open carry should take place in the "General Discussions" forum
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

 

[eye95]

No arguments if your point of view that guns and booze do not mix, ever. Then booze in the home of a firearms owner is poor judgment unless consumption never occurs. If consumption occurs then a firearm in the home is poor judgment.

Carry and possession may be two distinctly different actions to some, so be it.

To each their own.

I am not speaking to the subject of one consuming alcohol in his home while not presently armed. I have specifically been speaking about being out drinking, including drinking at private parties, while armed, such as was moronically done by the OP.

 

[DevinWKuska]

Not quite so. While the forum is pointedly about and for OC, the General Forum is for almost anything else related to RKBA.

Snip from Rule 8: All gun rights discussions not directly related to open carry should take place in the "General Discussions" forum
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

+1

Sorry only realized that after I had posted... had to run to store so didnt fix

 

[Cavalryman]

I Just because you aren't capable of controlling yourself when drinking doesn't mean I'm not.

I'm quite certain I can control myself when I'm drunk. It's controlling the gun that I'm not sure of. And I'm pretty darn sure you can't control a gun when drunk as well as you think you can.

 

[protect our rights]

I'm quite certain I can control myself when I'm drunk. It's controlling the gun that I'm not sure of. And I'm pretty darn sure you can't control a gun when drunk as well as you think you can.

Moderation is good.

 

[dcmdon]

I must confsess that I've not read all 6 pages. I just read the original post.

So my reply is to that.

To the OP. You are exactly the kind of person who should not be carrying a gun. Please, PLEASE take up another hobby. I am absolutely sure you will do something stupid that will reflect poorly on the rest of us.

I don't care if its illegal to carry "while drunk" in NH. Its WRONG. Please, go take an ethics class. (you sound like you're of college age) Or go to church. Whichever you prefer.

If you are going to carry the ability to take your life with the twitch of a finger on your hip, you owe it to everyone to be sober.

You are a **** *** * *********.

Best regards,

Don


No personal attacks, please.
--Moderator--

 

[Sgt. Kabukiman N.Y.P.D.]

With all due respect we have mentioned that driving a car intoxicated and having a holstered gun are two different things. Like I said I have a beer or two over dinner from time to time while carrying. If an armed robber came in and was robbing the place I seriously doubt this amount of alcohol would make me start shooting wildly. Your last statement implies that no one anywhere anytime should drink alcohol because a freak tragedy like Tuscon will happen near you. I for one will continue on with my life making my own good judgment call on a day to day bases.

Sorry it’s taken me so long to respond, I’ve been pretty busy with work.

No offense taken (and no respect needed, but thanks anyway ), I have a thick skin and am self-admittedly more often wrong than right. Driving while impaired and having a *holstered* weapon while impaired are indeed two different things. However, what if you have to use that weapon?

I didn’t mean for it to sound like someone would be shooting completely out of control if you had this level of alcohol (1-2 drinks worth) in your system. By shooting “wild” I meant that you miss your intended point of aim, whether it is by an inch or a foot.

More than a few years back, I used to take part in IDPA competitions. When I was competing, I was probably at about a medium/low skill level when compared to most of the other shooters (some of which were mind bogglingly fast/accurate and just generally super human, freaks of nature: you know who you are). Compared to an average Joe pulled off of the street, which maybe practice twice a month on average, I had a very good skill level. This being stated, I had all kinds of problems crop up with my shooting. It seems that the one rule of shooting is that something will *always* go wrong whether it be operator error, mechanical malfunctions, the wind, a stupid bee that is stinging you during your course of fire, or a million other things. It’s almost comical how many things can go wrong….if it weren’t such a serious subject.

For arguments sake, let’s say you have had two drinks during dinner. Two people enter and start shooting. You find cover behind a barrier and return fire stopping the both of them. However, during the fight you miscalculated while shooting over the barrier. You didn’t take your sight height in relation to your barrel into account and shot into the barrier rather than over it (this has happened to me a couple times in competition as well as a lot of other people). The ricochet hits and severely injures or kills another patron or employee. This could have happened to you whether intoxicated or sober (as I stated above this has happened to me in competition while dead sober and not fighting for my life – of course I have since worked to correct this issue during training). But, you have had two drinks. Once the prosecuting attorney of the innocent injured/dead party finds out you had something to drink, this is going to put a huge smile on his/her face when asking for prison time/monetary damages.

Please understand I’m not trying to rain judgment down from a golden pedestal. I don’t take myself that seriously and I am the last one to judge. I am merely providing some critical thinking points to those that may have not considered them. Yes, you should judge for yourself in regards to what you think you or your attorney can convince a jury of. Should you worry about having a drink or two with dinner while carrying? The answer is a nice, big, grey area: maybe. Ultimately, you have to be prepared for the consequences if things go south for you. My advice is that you shouldn’t give the prosecution any more ammunition than they already have. If you hadn’t had your two drinks, the prosecution has nowhere to go with in regards to this avenue of investigation. Just something to think about…

 

[Sgt. Kabukiman N.Y.P.D.]

That is not to say "don't." It is to say "think."

Written by a wiser and more succinct person than myself. This is merely what I was trying to convey...

 

[carry for myself]

carrying while drunk = Stupidest decision anyone can ever make.

nuff said

 

[marshaul]

I'm comparing the thought process of an individual who thinks they are OK to drive while impaired. Sure, they drove home 9 billion times without so much as swerving or coasting over the posted speed, but it just took one time out of 9 billion to ruin a bunch of lives.

I'm comparing the thought process of an individual who thinks they are OK to drive [strike]while impaired[/strike] ever. Sure, they drove home 9 billion times without so much as swerving or coasting over the posted speed, but it just took one time out of 9 billion to ruin a bunch of lives.