guns in bars

[nitrovic]

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LEO 229 wrote:

nitrovic wrote:

That's what I took out of it as well. I thought "we are equal" per Doug Hoffman. However, he really doesn't believe that. He should put "we are all equal, unless you are a police officer. Then you must stay in your house and never come out unless you are working."

Oh... we are NOT equal.

While off duty and out of uniform at home....

If my neighbor is real rude and nasty to me... Nothing happens to him.

But if I am rude and nasty to him... he can complain to my job and I could get fired for something I did off the clock.

• I cannot open carry

• I cannot drink and carry

• I cannot carry any gun I like

• If I use my gun I am under investigation by IA and the CID

• I cannot remain silent and must incriminate myselfto IA or I lose my job

• I do not get to have an attorney present during questions with IA

There is no privileged class here... The police have far greater restrictions than the citizens will ever know.

No joke. I was at a party with other officers before and civilian friend put a picture of the other guy's soon to be ex wife on the door. A neighbor complained because it said lewd things on it and the officer got fired. The poor guy didn't even know the picture was there!!!

One time a neighbor got nasty with my wife about our dogs barking. I told him not to talk to my wife that way and get out of our yard. He ran back and called my Sgt. and said I tried to assault him for no reason. I was TOTALLY off duty at the time as well. All created equal huh??

 

[LEO 229]

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nitrovic wrote:

No joke. I was at a party with other officers before and civilian friend put a picture of the other guy's soon to be ex wife on the door. A neighbor complained because it said lewd things on it and the officer got fired. The poor guy didn't even know the picture was there!!!

One time a neighbor got nasty with my wife about our dogs barking. I told him not to talk to my wife that way and get out of our yard. He ran back and called my Sgt. and said I tried to assault him for no reason. I was TOTALLY off duty at the time as well. All created equal huh??

Ya... I have plenty more stories on this.... but no need to post them all as I think the point was made... :uhoh:

We are far from privileged. Some will focus in on one small benefit of the job that they would like. But I am confident they would not want all therestrictions and draw backs that are attached to the job.

Sure.. cops can CC in a bar. Is it really that big a deal? Others can open carry so we are all armed in the end.

 

[Doug Huffman]

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nitrovic wrote:

I thought "we are equal" per Doug Hoffman. However, he really doesn't believe that. He should put "we are all equal, unless you are a police officer. Then you must stay in your house and never come out unless you are working."

My statement is "Either we are equal or we are not." may have been repeated a thousand times here on OCDO and still it is read and not understood. We are not equal, you and I or ye and he. You would establish a hierarchy on your special attributes and I deny their value.

 

[Leader]

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LEO 229 wrote:

nitrovic wrote:

That's what I took out of it as well. I thought "we are equal" per Doug Hoffman. However, he really doesn't believe that. He should put "we are all equal, unless you are a police officer. Then you must stay in your house and never come out unless you are working."

Oh... we are NOT equal.

While off duty and out of uniform at home....

If my neighbor is real rude and nasty to me... Nothing happens to him.

But if I am rude and nasty to him... he can complain to my job and I could get fired for something I did off the clock.

• I cannot open carry
• I cannot drink and carry
• I cannot carry any gun I like
• If I use my gun I am under investigation by IA and the CID
• I cannot remain silent and must incriminate myselfto IA or I lose my job
• I do not get to have an attorney present during questions with IA

There is no privileged class here... The police have far greater restrictions than the citizens will ever know.

Lets see if I understand you correctly....

No police officers in VA. are allowed to drink any alcohol ?

No police officers in VA. are allowed to openly carry any firearm at any time ?

No police officer in VA. is allowed to own a firearm that is not on a list of approved guns at your department ?

Anyone other then a police officer may walk into any bar in VA.armed & drink as much as they want and the police will NOT say or do anything about it ?

You really should move to MI. and I should move to VA.

In MI. we have many places where it is a misdemeanor to even posses a gun without a permit and some where it is still a felony to carry concealed even with a permit.

Having a BAC of .02% or higher is against the lawfor the average citizen IF he/she is armed and has a permit. Police officers don't seem to get a breath test or anything else when they have been drinking.

Police officers in MI. go to bars & drink everyday . Police officers in MI. drink & carry everyday. Police officers in MI. drink & drive while armed everyday.

Most police officers in MI. may carry whatever weapon they want, openly or concealed.

Not all officers are required to be armed while off duty.

Most don't get tickets for traffic violations.

The officer not knowing the law is an acceptable reason for violating the law. However it *MAY* result in the officer submitting to additional paid training.

Yup... I really think you should move to MI.

 

[quarter horseman]

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Sorry but most of the stuff you said is incorrect about MI cops

officers can not drink on duty

ALL OF THEM is incorrect you may an an alcholic or two in the group but look at what they have to put up with everyday

most of the departments have a certin modelandcaliberthey have to carry so all the guns are the same

Lots of people get let off for traffic violation every day that are not cops

Not all officersknow every law ever made

 

[Leader]

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quarter horseman wrote:

Sorry but most of the stuff you said is incorrect about MI cops

officers can not drink on duty

I never said anything about drinking "ON DUTY" only that some officers in MI drink everyday while carrying firearms and then drive. The comment about MI. police being able to drink was in responce to LEO229 saying that VA. cops can't drink while carrying & they are required to carry all the time. Therefore they can never drink at all.

ALL OF THEM is incorrect you may an an alcholic or two in the group but look at what they have to put up with everyday

I never said or implyed that ALL officers do anything.

most of the departments have a certin modelandcaliberthey have to carry so all the guns are the same

I was refering to OFF duty . I know not all are required to carry a gun mandated by their department.

Lots of people get let off for traffic violation every day that are not cops

Not all officersknow every law ever made

However if your averagecitizen says he doesn't know a law, that's just too bad, he gets arrested anyway.

Now ... what was it that I said that was wrong ?

 

[irfner]

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quarter horseman wrote:

Not all officersknow every law ever made

Yes but they should know the ones they are trying to enforce.

 

[LEO 229]

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irfner wrote:

quarter horseman wrote:

Not all officersknow every law ever made

Yes but they should know the ones they are trying to enforce.

Most do......

 

[irfner]

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There is not going to be amuch sympathy from me here. A lot of employers have rules we do not like such as no carrying a firearm at work. Few of us are allowed to drink while on duty leo or not. It may be against your department rules to open carry when off duty but it is not against the law. You won't go to jail for it. Your property and assets won't be seized etc. You do still have the rights of other citizens. You can open carry in those states where it is legal without breaking the law. If your department doesn't like it you have the same recourse as the rest of us citizens. Quit. Off duty and retired cops can and do drink in bars,reference this thread. As for traveling across country unarmed why should you be any different than every other citizen? Since leos have no duty to protect an individual there is no reason for an off duty or retired cop to be armed except for self defence the same as the rest of us. I think you should be armed if you wish but I also think the rest of us should be armed as well. I very much respect the job law enforcement does but I also believe authority must be limited, especially when it can be easily abused.

 

[irfner]

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LEO 229 wrote:

irfner wrote:

quarter horseman wrote:

Not all officersknow every law ever made

Yes but they should know the ones they are trying to enforce.

Most do......

Agreed

 

[ScottyT]

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AWDstylez wrote:

Let's follow the logic trail...

People go to the bar to drink alcohol. Alcohol and firearms don't mix, for many reasons,so you shouldn't carry while drinking. The only logical conclusion is that you shouldn't carry in a bar. Obviously people can't handle this, even LEO's, hence the need for bar bans.

I go to bars all the time, but it is to be with friends, dance, and sing karaoke. I am a teetotaler myself and have never had a drop of alcohol in my life (beyond the occasional Nyquil during cold season).

Banning firearms ANYWHERE is unconstitutional and just a stupid idea altogether.

"Alcohols and firearms don't mix."
That is something we definitely agree on!

 

[LEO 229]

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ScottyT wrote:

I go to bars all the time, but it is to be with friends, dance, and sing karaoke. I am a teetotaler myself and have never had a drop of alcohol in my life (beyond the occasional Nyquil during cold season).

Banning firearms ANYWHERE is unconstitutional and just a stupid idea altogether.

"Alcohols and firearms don't mix."
That is something we definitely agree on!

Ya... I agree with you there...

You are not trusted with a gun but you are allowed to drink and go get in a car outside.

Unlawful discharge and DWI are both against the law but the bars only focus on preventing one of the two. The state allows one danger while prohibiting the other.

They should prohibit possession of car keys while drinking booze at a bar.

Go figure.....

 

[irfner]

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Leo229 very cool change on that avatar. :lol:

 

[Slayer of Paper]

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Let me point out the REALLY obvious:

GUN CONTROL DOESN'T WORK! Not in any way, shape, or form. Never has, never will. People that do not concern themselves with laws that forbid them from taking other people's belongings by threat of violence do not concern themselves with laws that forbid them from carrying a gun into a certain location- including a bar.

As for these geniuses, if you can't conduct yourself in a lawful manner when consuming alcohol, then you should not consume alcohol in a public venue! It has NOTHING to do with carrying or not.

If gun carry is permitted EVERYWHERE, then it's probable that SOME people will abuse the right, and commit crimes while carrying guns. Fine. Convict them, send them to prison, and take away their right to own a gun. Just because some moron cop from Seattle can't control himself KNOWING he is carrying a weapon while drinking doesn't mean that I should lose MY rights.

This is the whole problem with gun control in general. People that obey gun control laws are not the ones that abuse their right to carry. Those who would do stupid things while carrying (like these cops and Hell's Angels) will quickly lose their rights to do so, leaving the rest of us much safer.

All of the the people in this story that were carrying firearms were doing so ILLEGALLY. So please explain to me how MORE gun control would have prevented this incident? Then, remember the story of the CCW holder in Nevada (where it is legal to CC in bars) that stopped two gunmen from going on a rampage, shooting them while they were RELOADING after already killing one man. That was a case of someone carrying LEGALLY in a bar, and being able to keep a bad situation from becoming an horrific one. Explain to me what more gun control would have done for THAT situation!

One more thing: The prediction that allowing gun carry in bars would lead to drunken shootouts sounds EXACTLY like the predictions that the issue of concealed carry permits would lead to the streets running red with blood. When are gungrabbers going to get tired of using the same, old tired, disproven arguments?

If you ain't wit me, your agin' me.

 

[LEO 229]

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I agree.... we have laws in place now... one being against murder!! But that still gets broken.

So do you really think a gun law will be obeyed by everyone? Nope!!

But if the honest people follow it.... they are the majorityand that is what counts.

 

[AbNo]

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Never mind all those people that get murdered?

I fail to see the positive of laws that don't stop the crimes their proponents claim.

 

[Alexcabbie]

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I live above a nice litle red-sauce Italian place. My firearms scare the ladies on the wait staff to death, and the owner has asked me not to carry when I dine there. I am starting to make some headway with their attitudes and if they were not my neighbors I would probably refuse to give them my biz. But as it is, they are right downstairs and I do get a "VIP" discount as I get them a lo of business by recommending them to the tourists who ride in my cab.

The pub on the corner is a different story. The owner does not want "Firearms in my bar" and I concur so long as I must by law OC in an establishment that serves alcohol on premises (there are no "Bars" in VA only "restaurants" with ABC licenses). The reason I concur is that first off, there are some REALLY goofy ladies in that bar some of whom will come right up to me (or any other male it seems) and start giving back rubs and acting really insane.(They are loaded, and I don't mean rich) What if one of them grabbed my sidearm and decided to play Annie Oakley?? At a minimum, that meand a hole blown in a floor or ceiling or wall or pool table. Worst case, somebody dies. Then of course there is the facrt that it is a neighborhood place on the same block as my residence. I go there to hoist a few with my freinds; and that can lead to quite a few. No way am I gonna go hiccupping down the block with a firearm on my hip. The need for self-defense is moreover muted by the fact that at closing time and in the hours before the Alexandria Police basically camp out there to make sure nobody disturbs the peace too much. I always carry pepper-spray, and under these circumstances it seems that pepper-spray is all the self defense I would need.

 

[Carnivore]

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I have to feel that the cop set the stage for this incident. unless he was in a bar on duty, which he wasn't..

Most folks go to these establishments to relax and let their hair down, Why the pistol? The IP group should have been the responsible example and moved on or let a said difference in what ever it was that was worth arguing about die down..

I say most likely a hot head with a history..

 

[Gator5713]

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Not knowing the whole story I cannot accurately form a decision, however, I feel that LEOs ought to be held to a higher standard than civilians in matters such as these.
I will give you an example:
I am a 'Professional' Truck driver. In many many cases, when a CDL holder gets pulled over in a routine traffic stop (ie: speeding, failure to signal, etc) as soon as the officer sees the 'Commercial' status of our license we typically get the 'You know better' speech and get the ticket where a regular operator is likely to get 'let go' with a warning. (I know that this is not ALWAYS the case, so DON"T jump on me for that, but you also know that it is OFTEN true!) Also, weather in my truck or POV I am considered legally 'drunk' at 0.04 instead of 0.08! AND I'm not allowed to have ANY alcohol within 8 hours of resuming control of my Commercial vehicle!
I'm not complaing about these laws, they are there for good reason, I am simply using this to make a point....

So, If my professional status holds me to a higher standard of driving, then why should an officer NOT be held to a higher standard of conduct?
We ALL have the RESPONSIBILITY to attempt to De-escalate a situation whenever possible, ESPECIALLY when carrying. If this officer was being threatenend, and no one else was in danger, IMO, he most likely SHOULD have left the premises and possibly returned with ON-Duty law enforcement if the assailant was breaking the law!

On the other note being discussed....
Alcohol (as with anything) is ok in MODERATION... I don't feel that getting sloshed and carrying is a good idea. In Texas, you can't legally carry in a bar, but the owner/manager CAN!!!! And I think that they should! And that all employees be trained to use it if needed!

 

[Leader]

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Are you saying that police officers should at least do as they tell us to?

When have you EVER seen a police officer back down & admit they *MIGHT* have been wrong about ANYTHING ??????????????? On or off duty!!!!