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Handcuffed, disarmed for obeying the law

TFred

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Tomahawk wrote:
TFred wrote:
I wonder if you can call 911 back and say "Could you please send me a real cop?"

:?

TFred
Ha ha!

Or, "Hey, this one's defective, what's your return policy?"
While it's a funny thought, but in all seriousness, if the LEO can't do their job without being so in fear for their safety that they have to go handcuffing the victims of a crime, they should probably seek alternate employment.

And, if the department actually enables this sort of incompetence, well, that's just pathetic.

I wonder how she would react to the victim of an assault? Obviously the person has just been fighting, better 'cuff 'em, in case they decide to keep throwing punches?

TFred
 

Tomahawk

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TFred wrote:
While it's a funny thought, but in all seriousness, if the LEO can't do their job without being so in fear for their safety that they have to go handcuffing the victims of a crime, they should probably seek alternate employment.
It's just another version of "arrest 'em all and let the judge figure it out". We are all helots.
 

Citizen

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Tomahawk wrote:
SNIP It's just another version of "arrest 'em all and let the judge figure it out". We are all helots.


Dammit. Where's my dictionary?

ETA:

Oh! That's a handy word. Thanks, Tomahawk.

1. Helot One of a class of serfs in ancient Sparta, neither a slave nor a free citizen.
2. A person in servitude; a serf.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/helot
 

ixtow

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Tomahawk wrote:
TFred wrote:
I wonder if you can call 911 back and say "Could you please send me a real cop?"

:?

TFred
Ha ha!

Or, "Hey, this one's defective, what's your return policy?"
I bet you'd have to show then your previous year's tax return as a receipt, and let them shoot you to prove that you are able to be harmed in that fashion. Refusal to comply would mean that you are a witch trying to avoid showing that you are bulletproof because of your wicked black magic....
 

kwiebe

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FMCDH wrote:
The major problem here, as I see it, is a matter of presumption and expectation. We as a society are allowing our LEAs and other government agencies to develop the expectation that anyone they deal with on a day to day basis will NOT be armed, so therefor, the logical presumption on the part of any LEO is that they need not worry about a firearm unless one is presented, and policy need not take into serious account the armed citizen variable.

This presumption creates a dangerous, false sense of security on an officers part that they need not consider a firearm unless seen or informed about it, so naturally, they are socked and unsure how to appropriately act/react about an individual who is carrying a firearm. Over-reaction than places the LAC at risk at the hands of the LEO.

The old adage begs to be stated here...."When all you do, all day long, is pound nails, everything starts to look like a nail."

There are few professions that this adage applies more aptly to than law enforcement.

This mindset however is quickly becoming a dangerous liability for LEAs in today's America, where more and more LAC are choosing to carry on a daily basis, and laws country wide are swinging from the cherry pick and potholed laws of places allowed, to the short list of places not.

LEAs need to sit up and take notice of these facts and start training our public servants to expect the LACs they interact with every day to be carrying. The days of the safe presumptuous equation, that gun equals criminal, are long over, and are becoming serious legal and public relations liabilities.

An LEO knowing for a fact that a given individual is carrying a gun may be safe knowledge, but going into every encounter with the expectation that everyone and anyone may be armed is a much safer practice.

When the predominant mindset swings from that of a reaction to the presence of a firearm, to that of assumption of the presence of a firearm, the policies and procedures will shift in both the LEOs, and the public's favor.
We need the little "clapping" emoticon I see on other sites. This post deserves some applause.

"+1" doesn't cut it
 

Gizmoe142

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I have only one question. What was the LEO taking about when she said she wasnt sure if he was the bad guy. Since when do bad guys present Concealed Permits for 1. and for 2. since when do they stay at the seen and wait for the cops to show up so they can talk to them and again hand over a Concealed permit.

Is this officer just dumb or stupid. Common sense dictates this officer is a moron and should be disarmed and handcuffed herself for, as I believe she said, "to make certain that we were all safe."

Sounds like in this situation she was the dangerous one.
 

Tomahawk

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Citizen wrote:
Tomahawk wrote:
SNIP It's just another version of "arrest 'em all and let the judge figure it out". We are all helots.


Dammit. Where's my dictionary?

ETA:

Oh! That's a handy word. Thanks, Tomahawk.

1. Helot One of a class of serfs in ancient Sparta, neither a slave nor a free citizen.
2. A person in servitude; a serf.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/helot
I got the concept from Will Grigg.

Helots were an underclass in Sparta and considered expendable. Young Spartan soldier trainees were sent out to murder Helots for practice. The idea was to not get caught and thus punished. It was to teach them guile and ruthlessness. Among themselves the soldiers would cover for each other. The fact that the helot was also a Spartan citizen and a human being was not even considered.
 

kito109654

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The actions of the officer: appalling.

The article: well written, I like it.

Bottom line: I can hardly believe that this crap is happening SO often. "Safer" my behind.
 

Tomahawk

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kito109654 wrote:
The actions of the officer: appalling.

The article: well written, I like it.

Bottom line: I can hardly believe that this crap is happening SO often. "Safer" my behind.
I won'r disagree with you that police-related problems are on the rise, but this kind of stuff isn't new, really, it's just that now you are plugged into the news and hear about it more often. In the days before the internet, you'd have never known about this unless you were local.
 

Alexcabbie

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Keep in mind that this woman was/is a rookie. The police academies nation wide need to include a couple days on the Lawfully Armed Citizen. Yeah, I know the job is dangerous, but fer cryin' in the grog I drive a taxicab!! And most LEOs know that my job is several orders of magnitude more potentially lethal than theirs. I use experience and commom sense to stay out of danger. This rookie cop was barely trained and lacked one, the other, or both....
 

Alexcabbie

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Keep in mind that this woman was/is a rookie. The police academies nation wide need to include a couple days on the Lawfully Armed Citizen. Yeah, I know the job is dangerous, but fer cryin' in the grog I drive a taxicab!! And most LEOs know that my job is several orders of magnitude more potentially lethal than theirs. I use experience and commom sense to stay out of danger. This rookie cop was barely trained and lacked one, the other, or both....
 

ixtow

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Alexcabbie wrote:
Keep in mind that this woman was/is a rookie. The police academies nation wide need to include a couple days on the Lawfully Armed Citizen. Yeah, I know the job is dangerous, but fer cryin' in the grog I drive a taxicab!! And most LEOs know that my job is several orders of magnitude more potentially lethal than theirs. I use experience and commom sense to stay out of danger. This rookie cop was barely trained and lacked one, the other, or both....
The more I look into this, the more I think I agree with you. I think this clueless bimbo with a badge is probably good-intentioned and just scared and dumb.

What then remains is, does she have what it takes to defeat that fear, and foster intellect above it? Or will it control her?

I'm more inclined to call this a really big screw-up. That doesn't make it all ok. But I think the victim of the incident is under no less of an obligation to NOT overreact as she is.

She is also part of a group. The PD. If that PD doesn't seem to think there is anything wrong with what she did... Then I think it is only prudent to push this as far and hard as possible. The PD in question has already shown a serious lack of interest in respecting the Bill of Rights. Consider that totality of circumstances... It isn't just 'this chick.'

It always comes back to this line about "the Officer made a judgment call."

Well, what kind of calls do Officers with really bad judgment make? Being dumb, fearful, and lacking forethought to incidents that will clearly occur frequently in that line of work... It's just a paycheck attitude... I'm the cop and my buddies in the Thin Blue Line will cover for me... I can get away with pretty much anything because I can always say "I made the call based on the totality of circumstances" and make up the parts that seem to justify it after the fact... Look at me, I'm a girl with a badge, see, Feminists can do anything, wheeee giggle!!!! None of these attitudes are acceptable. Which ones, if any, are present here? What will be done to correct it?

Now, call me sexist if you want, but there is a scientific fact that estrogen creates a craving for perpetual 'safety' as part of the nesting instinct. This particular person put a man in danger for her own interests. In the face of evidence that said he was no threat, she did it anyway... Maybe there is a connection there, maybe not. But the shoe does fit. This isn't to say that women can't be police officers. Just that they have a little more to overcome (and it is a flat scientific fact) to do it right.

Regardless of what I might postulate. You can't have an Officer going around putting ever member of public at further risk just because s/he is afraid of anything and everything. "Officer Safety" becomes an excuse for failing to be an Officer? Sure, they have no duty to protect anyone, anywhere, ever. But don't they at the least have a duty not to aid and abet the bad guys? Cuff him up and stand him out there, walk away, sit in the car, TAKE HIS GUN.... She did everything except put a big neon sign on him that says "Come kill this guy!" All because she was so damn afraid for herself?

I don't know her, but this doesn't sound like Police Officer material. She needs to step up, or step out.
 

SouthernBoy

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ixtow wrote:
Alexcabbie wrote:
Keep in mind that this woman was/is a rookie. The police academies nation wide need to include a couple days on the Lawfully Armed Citizen. Yeah, I know the job is dangerous, but fer cryin' in the grog I drive a taxicab!! And most LEOs know that my job is several orders of magnitude more potentially lethal than theirs. I use experience and commom sense to stay out of danger. This rookie cop was barely trained and lacked one, the other, or both....
The more I look into this, the more I think I agree with you. I think this clueless bimbo with a badge is probably good-intentioned and just scared and dumb.

What then remains is, does she have what it takes to defeat that fear, and foster intellect above it? Or will it control her?

I'm more inclined to call this a really big screw-up. That doesn't make it all ok. But I think the victim of the incident is under no less of an obligation to NOT overreact as she is.

She is also part of a group. The PD. If that PD doesn't seem to think there is anything wrong with what she did... Then I think it is only prudent to push this as far and hard as possible. The PD in question has already shown a serious lack of interest in respecting the Bill of Rights. Consider that totality of circumstances... It isn't just 'this chick.'

It always comes back to this line about "the Officer made a judgment call."

Well, what kind of calls do Officers with really bad judgment make? Being dumb, fearful, and lacking forethought to incidents that will clearly occur frequently in that line of work... It's just a paycheck attitude... I'm the cop and my buddies in the Thin Blue Line will cover for me... I can get away with pretty much anything because I can always say "I made the call based on the totality of circumstances" and make up the parts that seem to justify it after the fact... Look at me, I'm a girl with a badge, see, Feminists can do anything, wheeee giggle!!!! None of these attitudes are acceptable. Which ones, if any, are present here? What will be done to correct it?

Now, call me sexist if you want, but there is a scientific fact that estrogen creates a craving for perpetual 'safety' as part of the nesting instinct. This particular person put a man in danger for her own interests. In the face of evidence that said he was no threat, she did it anyway... Maybe there is a connection there, maybe not. But the shoe does fit. This isn't to say that women can't be police officers. Just that they have a little more to overcome (and it is a flat scientific fact) to do it right.

Regardless of what I might postulate. You can't have an Officer going around putting ever member of public at further risk just because s/he is afraid of anything and everything. "Officer Safety" becomes an excuse for failing to be an Officer? Sure, they have no duty to protect anyone, anywhere, ever. But don't they at the least have a duty not to aid and abet the bad guys? Cuff him up and stand him out there, walk away, sit in the car, TAKE HIS GUN.... She did everything except put a big neon sign on him that says "Come kill this guy!" All because she was so damn afraid for herself?

I don't know her, but this doesn't sound like Police Officer material. She needs to step up, or step out.
Good post!
:celebrate
 

suntzu

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TFred wrote:
Tomahawk wrote:
TFred wrote:
I wonder if you can call 911 back and say "Could you please send me a real cop?"

:?

TFred
Ha ha!

Or, "Hey, this one's defective, what's your return policy?"
While it's a funny thought, but in all seriousness, if the LEO can't do their job without being so in fear for their safety that they have to go handcuffing the victims of a crime, they should probably seek alternate employment.

And, if the department actually enables this sort of incompetence, well, that's just pathetic.

I wonder how she would react to the victim of an assault? Obviously the person has just been fighting, better 'cuff 'em, in case they decide to keep throwing punches?

TFred
I have said for a while that if THEY are that afraid then they most definitely need to find a job more to their sensitivities--because they most definitely do not need to work in or near a position of law enforcement.

As for the departments themselves--they both encourage and desire abusive people to be cops in my opinion.

As for how she would react to the victim of an assault--she would probably want to know why they antagonized the criminal in the first place and then cuff the victim and toss them in jail on a charge of disorderly conduct.
 

suntzu

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Alexcabbie wrote:
Keep in mind that this woman was/is a rookie. The police academies nation wide need to include a couple days on the Lawfully Armed Citizen. Yeah, I know the job is dangerous, but fer cryin' in the grog I drive a taxicab!! And most LEOs know that my job is several orders of magnitude more potentially lethal than theirs. I use experience and commom sense to stay out of danger. This rookie cop was barely trained and lacked one, the other, or both....
It makes no difference if she is a rookie or not. IMO the police academies need to spend more time on the Constitution and the rights guaranteed to us under it.

As for how "dangerous" of a job a police officer has--it isn't as dangerous as they want you to believe--that is the story they tell you in order to get sympathy when they violate your rights--and I don't buy it.

If they are afraid--they can find another job.

We need for the DOJ to start prosecuting 4A violations and then this crap will stop, or at the very least it will be severely reduced.
 

N6ATF

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suntzu wrote:
Alexcabbie wrote:
Keep in mind that this woman was/is a rookie. The police academies nation wide need to include a couple days on the Lawfully Armed Citizen. Yeah, I know the job is dangerous, but fer cryin' in the grog I drive a taxicab!! And most LEOs know that my job is several orders of magnitude more potentially lethal than theirs. I use experience and commom sense to stay out of danger. This rookie cop was barely trained and lacked one, the other, or both....
It makes no difference if she is a rookie or not. IMO the police academies need to spend more time on the Constitution and the rights guaranteed to us under it.

As for how "dangerous" of a job a police officer has--it isn't as dangerous as they want you to believe--that is the story they tell you in order to get sympathy when they violate your rights--and I don't buy it.

If they are afraid--they can find another job.

We need for the DOJ to start prosecuting 4A violations and then this crap will stop, or at the very least it will be severely reduced.
Being a LEO... so dangerous, that
You can be armed 24/7/365, unlike anyone else
If someone attacks you in a city, your comrades will be there in less than a minute, lights and sirens
You are practically immune from ever being charged with a crime
 

wylde007

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If these arrogant, uniformed employees of ours really want to treat us as the enemy, they may eventually get their wish, at which point they will discover they're vastly outnumbered -- and "backup" is never quite close enough to solve the problem they've created for themselves.
They are susceptible to the same conundrum that the Brady Center wants us all to live within: when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

Likewise, when the police are already there, backup may only be minutes away. Arrogance should be painful, if not educational.

ixtow wrote:
This calls for immediate discussion.
The Judean People's Front. That's brilliant.
 

marshaul

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stainless1911 wrote:
As it is now, when I see a cop who has someone pulled over, I wonder if the person had actually done anything wrong, or if the cop is just out robbing people again. If I see them, Im automatically nervous, and I dont even trust them in a casual conversation.
As it stands, a large majority of Americans feel this way.

The next step is to make them realize that this is not the result of a "necessary evil", a "thin blue wall" that separates society from chaos.

The sooner Americans wake up to the reality that -- whether they've chosen to admit, acknowledge, and embrace this fact, or pretend it isn't true -- each of us always has been, and always will be, ultimately responsible for our own safety and security, the sooner they will be willing and unafraid to shed the shackles of this blue wall of tyranny.

That is to say, most Americans are afraid of police, but they accept it because they are afraid of crime more. If they can begin to adopt our attitude, with a non-paranoid but historically quite justifiable fear of government, combined with an acceptance but lack of fear regarding crime, they are likely to begin to resist the excess of modern Law Enfarcement here in America.
 

Tomahawk

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marshaul wrote:
That is to say, most Americans are afraid of police, but they accept it because they are afraid of crime more.
That's true, but they are also afraid of what happens to people who don't praise police. That's the real atmosphere of fear we live with. If you get labeled as anti-cop or anti-government, suddenly you are vulnerable to all sorts of abuses, ranging from being flamed in a forum thread to actual physical harm.
 

ixtow

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marshaul wrote:
stainless1911 wrote:
As it is now, when I see a cop who has someone pulled over, I wonder if the person had actually done anything wrong, or if the cop is just out robbing people again. If I see them, Im automatically nervous, and I dont even trust them in a casual conversation.
As it stands, a large majority of Americans feel this way.

The next step is to make them realize that this is not the result of a "necessary evil", a "thin blue wall" that separates society from chaos.

The sooner Americans wake up to the reality that -- whether they've chosen to admit, acknowledge, and embrace this fact, or pretend it isn't true -- each of us always has been, and always will be, ultimately responsible for our own safety and security, the sooner they will be willing and unafraid to shed the shackles of this blue wall of tyranny.

That is to say, most Americans are afraid of police, but they accept it because they are afraid of crime more. If they can begin to adopt our attitude, with a non-paranoid but historically quite justifiable fear of government, combined with an acceptance but lack of fear regarding crime, they are likely to begin to resist the excess of modern Law Enfarcement here in America.
How dare you snub your nose at your protectors! Without them handcuffing you and tossing you to the bad gys, how could you ever survive? "The Streets," where we all partake of our daily lives and know all there is to know, are dangerous! These people, these Heroic Officers, 'work those streets' fraught with peril, where you live and conduct your daily business. What would you know of it, you unwashed peasant! You only spend just as much time there as they do! You only have to do it with no uniform, no backup, no badge, no gun, no bullet-retardant vest, and no guarantee that they have any obligation to help you. What would you know of your saviors!?!? Their Job is so much harder and more dangerous than the life you live that is exactly the same and you don't get paid for... Well, except for all that stuff I just mentioned that they have to protect them, and they won't let you have... Even thought you're paying for it... Wait... My argument doesn't make any sense at all.

Goodness, just by thinking it through a little bit, I have seen reality and reason.

Don't you wish they all did that?
 
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