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Handcuffed, disarmed for obeying the law

marshaul

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Tomahawk wrote:
marshaul wrote:
That is to say, most Americans are afraid of police, but they accept it because they are afraid of crime more.
That's true, but they are also afraid of what happens to people who don't praise police. That's the real atmosphere of fear we live with. If you get labeled as anti-cop or anti-government, suddenly you are vulnerable to all sorts of abuses, ranging from being flamed in a forum thread to actual physical harm.
Indeed. This is all too evident, even here, where some of the shrillest cries of all are "stop cop-bashing!!!".

As though it's somehow going to make gun owners look bad. :quirky The way I look at it, the exact kind of people we need to attract to rights-activism are the kind of people who are not afraid of a little so-called "cop-bashing".
 

Alexcabbie

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Doodness dwacious. Most cops are pretty good folks, but there are idiots simply everywhere. Even among the best police departments. I don't care for LEO bashing, having been one; but idiot bashing is OK even if the idiot is an LEO. Even if he' the AG. Hell, even if he's the POTUS.

Today I was assisted by three fine LEOs; two of the civilian members of the Fort Belvior VA Police Department and an MPI agent; when a young lady took me $35 worth and tried to pay with two denied/invalid credit cards and disappeared between two houses when she "went to get the money". They did not just do a perfunctory canvass of nearby houses and take a field report, they ran her name and did other checks (she was dumb enough to leave me holding the imprinted credit card form) and found that she was known to have made trouble of some kind on post before. They put out an APB and really let on that they wanted this deadbeat for cheating an honest cabdriver. I went to the police station to give a statement under oath and was told that the case would be tried in Federal court which - conveniently for me - is within walking distance from my apartment. I am hoing that she saw the cops out there in the neighborhood and decides to put some money in the bank so that card will finally go through; but I am STILL gonna press charges. I am sick of people like that pulling this stupid time-wasting garbage and this one is gonna learn a lesson, or at least learn that we cabbies don't always just write off the loss and drive away.

Now, LEO bashing? I bet she has a lot of perfectly awful things to say about the LEOs who are fixing to ruin her little lark.
 

okboomer

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ixtow, I gotta agree that a lot of young women are not prepared to wield the responsibility of the uniform or the weapon. I've met young men that I wouldn't trust with my garbage bag out of my sight.

generally to all ...

I believe women have biology to overcome. I also believe that many girls are still being raised that "as agood [insert religion of preference here]woman, your role is to be wife and mother" which is still in conflict with the feminist movement that "you can have it all, baby" or "you can bring home the bacon, cook it up and be a (wonderwoman) wife and mother."

Ibelieve that men have biology to overcome, too. I also belive that many boys are still being raised that "as a strong man, you are to protect weakerwomen." A paternalistic viewpoint, but based on men's biology, therefore valid.

I believe in equal pay for equal work, and equal opportunity, but the feminist movement of the 1960's and 1970's was not in our(women's) best interest. It defeminized a whole generation of women and debased us in the eyes of a whole generation of men ... well, I'm probably not stating this very well (long day).

Women aren't the same as men physically, intellectuallyor emotionally. Nor are we meant to be.We are different. Our brains and bodies work differently. That doesn't mean that we cannot perform the same jobs, it just means that we may arrive at the same outcome by a different route. Our driving forces give us a different perspective than men ... that is what being human is all about. Someone from a different cultural background will not think like me, nor would I want them to. Nor would that make them wrong. Just different. (No, we are not all going to sing Kumbaya :lol:)

I had to fight this attitude from my mother ... the "you don't need a man to be a whole woman" crap she bought into in the 1960's.

The way I see it is 'men are hunters' biologically, and 'women and children are gatherers.' There is a lot of 'nature' in there, but also a lot of 'nurture' in there, too. Don't forget, in nature, the female of the species generally raises the offspring alone or with limited help from the male. The female of a species is often the more dangerous of the two, especially in defense of the offspring. As 'civilized human beings' too many believe we have moved past the need for such differentiation. I don't happen to buy into this. With the right nurture, a woman's nature can be expanded to incorporate such traditionally male occupations as warfare, security (police), provider, and protector.

I am a lady first and foremost. I also provide nurturing for my family which means I cook, clean, gather (shop), and provide partnership to my SO. He is a he-man first and foremost. He also provides safety, security and hunts (works to earn a living) and provides me with a partnership. We are equal in our own ways. I also worked a full time job, but when we were young and broke, and it was 15F with 8" of snow and a 25mph wind out of the north and the one vehicle needed repair so we could get to work the next day, I was out there with him, wrenching under the car, in the engine compartment ... whatever needed done. Was it an equal partnership, split 50-50 all the time, no. But it was equal in it's own way.

IMHO, the female officer simply needs the time to gain experience. There may be a problem with the training program she was given, and that is the problem that needs to be addressed. But, sadly, EOE will probably not allow adjustments to be made that would equalize the final output (graduated officer person.)

climbing down off my soapbox with my opinions
 

Alexcabbie

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You make valid points, OKBoomer, but at the same time there are aspects of law enforcement that the talents and unique abilities of a female officer can really make a difference - oh hell strike that, I hate that "make a difference" BS - can really provide an advantage in bringing a situation to the best possible conclusion.

Women generally have more finely tuned and accurate "crap detectors" than men. And when a male BG is trying to BS a male LEO with some of this "us guys" stuff, having a female officer present is often a huge deterrent to a suspect trying to pull this kind of thing.

Also kids up to about age 11 are used to mommy and female teachers as authority figures. Males other than their father may frighten them. When a young juvenile witness or - God forbid - victim needs to confide, a female LEO can come in quite handy.

BUT just as a male officer needs to learn ho to control the testosterone, a female cop has to learn how to control the estrogen. Failure to do so can result in anything from farce to disaster (or worse, a disastrous farce).
 

ixtow

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Alexcabbie wrote:
Women generally have more finely tuned and accurate "crap detectors" than men. And when a male BG is trying to BS a male LEO with some of this "us guys" stuff, having a female officer present is often a huge deterrent to a suspect trying to pull this kind of thing.
Aye, so where was this BS detector when she was cuffing up the caller 'for his safety', without clearing the building? That is quite the steamer...

Maybe it only detects other peoples' BS, and not her own? Now THAT would explain a LOT of things, not just this situation. :p
 

okboomer

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ixtow - :lol::lol::lol:- she definitely had something turned off ...

As far as I am concerned, she needs to take some assertiveness courses ... I believe that it was her insecurities which caused her to fear ... again, where was the training to address this issue? Lost in the touchy/feely 100# gorilla that has been created out of ignoring biology and the baggage of the "even playing field" progressive crap they have been trying to train American's into.

I don't advocate solving problems with violence, but I have had a LOT of folks try to physically intimidate me over the years, especially when I was a bondsman (thank god I was armed then!). Some don't even know they do it!

SO and I were having an argument decades ago when we were much younger, and I found that I had backed up into the kitchen, with my arms crossed and shoulders hunched. He was leaning towards me, yelling and had that pointy finger thing going, too. [Lightbulb goes on] I asked him why he was trying to physically intimidate me ... I really didn't care about the yelling ... but the physical intimidation was unnerving! That was the last time we ever got to that point ... but something else I realized at that time was how much both of my parents used physical intimidation on me ... not violence, but the threat of violence! I have been sensitive to it ever since and it still took mea long time to figure out how to deal with it from others.

My point I so torturously got to is that a lot of younger people don't realize how they have been conditioned to accept behaviour by their parents ... women to be intimidated, and men to intimidate physically.

It's that non-confrontational training that a lot of young women get. Keep the peace. Be the mediator. In this light, you can see how I can say that women have been conditioned over thousands of years to be devious and subtle. Anything else and you are called a bitch, and you are taught to rely on other people for validation. It takes a long time to shed that crap.

I do realize that a lot of it is tied to a woman's physiology and biology ... we are the breeders,caregivers for the young, infirm and old. But, ultimately, isn't that what a police force is supposed to be ... to serve and to protect? The way I see it, is that PD's have become "male societies" and when that happens, when there is no creditable female influence, you get men who are more aggressive and less willing to use logic to govern their actions. Then, the training they get builds on that mentality to react first and think afterwards ... and yet, they have to have that training to survive some of the situations on the street that they face daily.

I saw it in SO when we were after a bondjumper with an extensive criminal history of violence and gun use ... he was ready for violence and that was what governed his thinking during the chase. We had jumped him out of the house he was hiding out in and I knew he didn't have a weapon on him, so I was governed by the Force Continuum. Luckily, SO was still able to hear me and understand what I was saying when I told him not to shoot.

That is not to say that I haven't drawn my gun with the intent to shoot ... I have, but that equalizer made the idjit go the other way so I didn't have to shoot at that time:cool:
 

KBCraig

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From what I've been able to read, police academies around the country inculcate a militaristic mindset of "Us vs. Them", where rookies are endlessly drilled that in order to make it safely home to their spouse and children at the end of the day, they must assume that every blue-haired septuagenarian on her way to church is a cop-killer in disguise.

The "officer safety first" argument is specious at best. If "officer safety" is truly your first priority, then why isn't it your policy to just shoot everyone on sight? Why doesn't every traffic stop mean all occupants of the vehicle are proned out and handcuffed? (Might have to use flex-cuffs on the toddlers and infants in car seats, but you can never be too careful!)

As Alex noted, there are many jobs that are far more dangerous than being a police officer. Not one of those jobs enjoys the legal sanction to use preemptive force or detention against members of the public.
 

ixtow

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KBCraig wrote:
From what I've been able to read, police academies around the country inculcate a militaristic mindset of "Us vs. Them"
I have first-hand experience with it. I attended for 3 weeks, and that was way more than I needed. Nothing but "Holy crap, can you believe you're not allowed to _____?!?! How are you supposed to do your job????!!!??? Here's how you get around it...."
 

marshaul

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ixtow wrote:
KBCraig wrote:
From what I've been able to read, police academies around the country inculcate a militaristic mindset of "Us vs. Them"
I have first-hand experience with it.  I attended for 3 weeks, and that was way more than I needed.  Nothing but "Holy crap, can you believe you're not allowed to _____?!?!  How are you supposed to do your job????!!!???  Here's how you get around it...."
HAH! lol
 

Alexcabbie

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This info is from late 1971 or early '72 , but at the Security Police academy at Lackland AFB we had an instructor in the "law, evidence, and procedure" part who was IMO wayyyyyy too enthusiastic about the "General Article" of the UCMJ (This is a sort of "catchall" article for stuff that might have been left out, which is about as best as I can explain it to civilians. You Military guys know exactly). He called it the "gotcha" Article as in "If we wantcha we gotcha"
 

TheApostle

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LE is a dangerous profession - there are not many professions where people kill you simply because of the uniform you wear. Not to mention the endless supply of songs advocating the killing of cops and an increasing violent trend against LE.

That being said, dangers are inherent with the job and they do not allow the suspension of constitutional rights.

What this officer did is inexcusable. Obviously she missed the legals portion of her academy. Its quite apparent that she forgot that she swore to uphold the Constitution.
 

ixtow

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TheApostle wrote:
LE is a dangerous profession - there are not many professions where people kill you simply because of the uniform you wear. Not to mention the endless supply of songs advocating the killing of cops and an increasing violent trend against LE.
LE's attitude of "Us vs Them," and having no respect for the Rights of the People they are supposed to be protecting, foster the enmity. Things like the War on Drugs, are a very bold declaration of war against people who like their drugs and recognize that the government has no legitimate authority to call it illegal. If someone declares war on you, you shoot back. Unless you are stupid. This much, frankly is deserved. I have no pity for the LEO who is killed while servicing a bogus no-knock warrant on the wrong address that was beaten out of a guy who just wanted a lighter sentence (or for the beatings to stop) and made up the whole story....

Dangerous? On an individual basis, you might say a LEO is exposed to more danger. BUT, since it has been upheld that the LEO has no obligation to protect any individual, this argument fails. They have no obligation to even show up. They have no obligation to expose themselves to the danger, which the citizen has already been a victim of. Since their only charge is the general safety (for which there can be no way to hold them accountable), one has to consider only the general fact that crime is committed against the public far more frequently. Factually, a crime must be committed before a LEO is ever informed and has the non-obligation of taking 15 minutes to show up at the scene of where the crime has already happened to a NOT A LEO.

Now this isn't to say there aren't LEOs out there who do try to protect every individual they can. And it's also doesn't ignore the fact that they can't be everywhere. But the ranks of the Bad Apples are growing rapidly, and being deliberately sought out and encouraged by the entities who employ them; your supposed elected officials.

Now, why would "our leaders" be intentionally and actively encouraging that kind of thing? Hmmm....
 

TheApostle

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As with any mechanism, it is only as good as it is maintained. US LE has not yet grown to be the monster as some countries have been witness/victim. Getting elected officials in check will help a great deal.

An "us versus them" mentality can be assumed with any combination of groups. Its an easy way to boil things down - it defines an enemy but hardly proposes a solution.

The officer involved in this case needs to surrender her shield. That fixes the problem. The error is so egregious that there is no other recourse.

As for allowing allowing heroin addicts and crackheads to roam around at will... :uhoh:
 

ixtow

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TheApostle wrote:
As for allowing allowing heroin addicts and crackheads to roam around at will... :uhoh:
Gosh, I know.... And someday, they might let the Negroes off the Plantations, too. The humanity!
 
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