giaking70
Regular Member
imported post
good afternoon my fellow open carriers of firearms and freedom fighters...
as you guessed from the title topic, yes, I was arrested by law enforcement today. I know you guys are all waiting to hear the details, hold your horses. Let me say that yes, I DID have my recorder with me and got it all on tape up til when they had me in the backseat of their cruiser the first couple of minutes as my batteries actually died...at such a crucial time...errrrr!!
Ok, let me get right into it, hope you enjoy the read and please let me know if there was anything I could of done better or what have you.....on to the incident.
February 20th, 2009 at approximately 1:45pm I was at Westfield Shopping Center Parkway Plaza in El Cajon at Macy's exchanging a pair of sun glasses I got as a gift. One of their employees come up and asked that if I needed help to just ask. I was trying on different pairs for about a good 20 minutes or so. As I was trying one pair on, I saw in the reflection in the mirror a shoulder patch of an El Cajon Police officer and then a few more and one of them grabs my arm...
Officer 1: keep your hands where they're at, keep em up high for me please
Me: no problem officer, no problem.
Officer 1: you got any ID to go with that weapon?
Me: yes sir in my right rear pocket
Officer 1: Who are you?
Officer 2: reaching for my weapon to unholster it, I give no resistance
Me: my name is James
Officer 1: Why you carrying a weapon
Me: I open carry here in the State of California which according to Penal Code 12031 says I can openly carry so long as the weapon is not loaded and is in plain view
Officer 2: checking my weapon, gives the all clear sign that the weapon is indeed unloaded and retains my weapon
Officer 1: you open carry?
Me: yes I open carry
Officer 1: you know what, you cant carry no ammunition on your belt when you open carry, you know that? Go ahead, put your hands behind your back
Me: I comply with no resistance
my ammunition is carried in mag pouches...
Officer 3: proceeds to place handcuffs on my hands
Officer 1: having ammunition on your belt is the same as having the gun loaded
Me: Not according to case law in pursuant to PC 12031
Officer 1: you can open carry without ammunition on your belt
they proceed to at this time start to walk me towards an exit at Macy's
Officer 1: yeah he has two loaded magazines (saying to another officer)
Officer 4: whats your name sir?
Me: James
Officer 4: Lets do this, as a courtesy to James we're gonna detain you for the moment, you're not under arrest. We'll go research what we got here, is this ok with you?
Me: yes sir, that's fine
by this time, we're outside of Macy's and they're walking me towards one of their cruisers
Officer 1: close proximatity of the ammunition to the gun is the same as it being loaded (telling Officer 4 this)
Officer 4: here's what we're gonna do, we're gonna take a walk out to the car, research this and get you back under your way, remember, you're not under arrest, ok?
Me: ok
I'm at this time letting Officer 4 know that "occording to PC 12031 and case law that carrying ammunition seperate from the weapon does NOT consitute as loaded as the other officer is implying.
Officer 4: I understand this but just let us do the research on this and we'll look for what we call in court case law and see what we can find.
(Well duh, didn't I just say that)...lol.
Anyways, by this time they are placing me in the backseat of the cruiser and also bear in mind, I have not told them where I work. I feel cause where I work shouldn't have any bearings or relevance to this situation.
Officer 4 is now placing me in the rear of a cruiser now and gives me the rant of how they're for the 2nd Amendment and all and that they're calling the DA's office now.
Officer 5: whats your name? (while I am in the backseat of the cruiser)
Me: James
Officer 5: James what?
Me: 88888 (just protecting my identity here folks)
Officer 5: you look familiar, you ever been arrested before?
Me: no sir, not even so much as a traffic violation
Officer 5: you sure, cause I honestly think I've arrested you before.
I wanna crack up laughing here by this time as this poor rookie doesn't know he is dealing with a seasoned veteran off duty officer.
Me: yes officer, I am quite sure.
He walks away but before he does, I let him know if it was okay if they could retrieve my items that were in a bag where they made contact with me at as it had my sunglasses I was trying to exchange. They did and was happy about that. By this time now, I think was when my recorder died as there was nothing else recorded so I will just type out what happened the next few minutes.
Officer 4: James, we're on the phone with the DA's office still and we're checking up on this and hopefully we'll get you on your way or if we indeed do have to arrest you.
Me: thats fine sir.
Officer 4 then proceeds to check up on my well-being as it was a little warm out today and asked if I was ok. I told him the cuffs were on a bit tight (which I took pictures of the slight bruising) and he was kind enough to loosen them up a bit. He said "The cuffs were'nt double locked like they shoulda been and thats why they're too tight" Again, wish my recorder hadnt of died because this would make a good arguement right there. Officer 4 then gave me a polite interview just asking what I do for a living and this is where my off duty status just had to come into play, I didnt want it to because like I stated earlier, my job status should not have any bearings on my right to open carry.
About 5 minutes goes by and then Officer's 1 and 4 come over again, open the door and proceed to tel me that I am now under arrest but did not give me my Miranda Rights then and there. So, they proceeded to take me out of the cruiser and then proceed to give me a full patdown. I was then told by Officer 1
Officer 1: Ok james, what we're gonna do now is we're gonna go over to the station, we'll write you up a citation for this incident and then your weapon will be impounded. You'll have to go to the courts to get a court order, then bring us that said court order and then we'll release the weapon back to you.
He then walks me over to his cruiser and places me in the back seat of it. Now the police station is literally right across the street from the Parkway Plaza Mall on the opposite corner. So its only like maybe not even a 3 or 4 minute car ride. We get there, he walks me into the building and put me in their interview area. I was given another courtesy patdown as per their policy which is in plain view on the wall in black and white and told to have a seat on the bench.
There were a couple of gangbangers in there and they removed them immediately I am guessing because of my off duty status. There, Officer 1 proceeded to ask me the usual where I live, job, place of birth yadda yada yadda. He then proceeded to read my Miranda Rights and after that I just kept quiet. Officer 3 showed up and then proceeded to take my pictures all the way around. He even took pictures of my still attached Blackhawk Serpta Holster and mag pouches on the opposite side of my hip. I was asked by Officer 1 who my duty WC was and told him and gave him the number.
After awhile of just sitting there, Officer 3 comes back to inform me that there are two different DA's argueing over the legality of all of this and that this would probably take another ten minutes.
Those ten minutes roll by and then Officer 1 comes back to inform me that because of the two DA's argueing the case, I was no longer under arrest and was to be released with all my posessions immediately including weapons and ammunition. He also informed me that he would give me a ride to me POV and that there was no other reason to detain me any longer then necessary.
He gave me a ride back to the car and then we proceeded to talk off the record about open carry and all and we shared a few war stories. I told him that I know he was just doing his job and that I appreciated all of them being courtous and professional.
For those of you reading this, I want to point out that some of this officers in this department, I grew up with, so they know me and know what I do for a living. I just wished out of all of this exprience, they knew more about the open carry law.
So, please let me know if I did anything right or wrong during this and look forward to hearing from everyone on this topic. I also encourage you to please PM me if you want me to tell you personally.
Thanks guys and keep it up. My only thing here, is I didnt have any of the pamplets as I felt those probably woulda helped. Take care and god bless....
Oh, one more thing that I thought was funny. After they told me I was no longer under arrest, Officer 3 admitted to me that he hated where I was standing...right in front of a mirror so that I could see them coming. So much for tactical approach huh....lol.
good afternoon my fellow open carriers of firearms and freedom fighters...
as you guessed from the title topic, yes, I was arrested by law enforcement today. I know you guys are all waiting to hear the details, hold your horses. Let me say that yes, I DID have my recorder with me and got it all on tape up til when they had me in the backseat of their cruiser the first couple of minutes as my batteries actually died...at such a crucial time...errrrr!!
Ok, let me get right into it, hope you enjoy the read and please let me know if there was anything I could of done better or what have you.....on to the incident.
February 20th, 2009 at approximately 1:45pm I was at Westfield Shopping Center Parkway Plaza in El Cajon at Macy's exchanging a pair of sun glasses I got as a gift. One of their employees come up and asked that if I needed help to just ask. I was trying on different pairs for about a good 20 minutes or so. As I was trying one pair on, I saw in the reflection in the mirror a shoulder patch of an El Cajon Police officer and then a few more and one of them grabs my arm...
Officer 1: keep your hands where they're at, keep em up high for me please
Me: no problem officer, no problem.
Officer 1: you got any ID to go with that weapon?
Me: yes sir in my right rear pocket
Officer 1: Who are you?
Officer 2: reaching for my weapon to unholster it, I give no resistance
Me: my name is James
Officer 1: Why you carrying a weapon
Me: I open carry here in the State of California which according to Penal Code 12031 says I can openly carry so long as the weapon is not loaded and is in plain view
Officer 2: checking my weapon, gives the all clear sign that the weapon is indeed unloaded and retains my weapon
Officer 1: you open carry?
Me: yes I open carry
Officer 1: you know what, you cant carry no ammunition on your belt when you open carry, you know that? Go ahead, put your hands behind your back
Me: I comply with no resistance
my ammunition is carried in mag pouches...
Officer 3: proceeds to place handcuffs on my hands
Officer 1: having ammunition on your belt is the same as having the gun loaded
Me: Not according to case law in pursuant to PC 12031
Officer 1: you can open carry without ammunition on your belt
they proceed to at this time start to walk me towards an exit at Macy's
Officer 1: yeah he has two loaded magazines (saying to another officer)
Officer 4: whats your name sir?
Me: James
Officer 4: Lets do this, as a courtesy to James we're gonna detain you for the moment, you're not under arrest. We'll go research what we got here, is this ok with you?
Me: yes sir, that's fine
by this time, we're outside of Macy's and they're walking me towards one of their cruisers
Officer 1: close proximatity of the ammunition to the gun is the same as it being loaded (telling Officer 4 this)
Officer 4: here's what we're gonna do, we're gonna take a walk out to the car, research this and get you back under your way, remember, you're not under arrest, ok?
Me: ok
I'm at this time letting Officer 4 know that "occording to PC 12031 and case law that carrying ammunition seperate from the weapon does NOT consitute as loaded as the other officer is implying.
Officer 4: I understand this but just let us do the research on this and we'll look for what we call in court case law and see what we can find.
(Well duh, didn't I just say that)...lol.
Anyways, by this time they are placing me in the backseat of the cruiser and also bear in mind, I have not told them where I work. I feel cause where I work shouldn't have any bearings or relevance to this situation.
Officer 4 is now placing me in the rear of a cruiser now and gives me the rant of how they're for the 2nd Amendment and all and that they're calling the DA's office now.
Officer 5: whats your name? (while I am in the backseat of the cruiser)
Me: James
Officer 5: James what?
Me: 88888 (just protecting my identity here folks)
Officer 5: you look familiar, you ever been arrested before?
Me: no sir, not even so much as a traffic violation
Officer 5: you sure, cause I honestly think I've arrested you before.
I wanna crack up laughing here by this time as this poor rookie doesn't know he is dealing with a seasoned veteran off duty officer.
Me: yes officer, I am quite sure.
He walks away but before he does, I let him know if it was okay if they could retrieve my items that were in a bag where they made contact with me at as it had my sunglasses I was trying to exchange. They did and was happy about that. By this time now, I think was when my recorder died as there was nothing else recorded so I will just type out what happened the next few minutes.
Officer 4: James, we're on the phone with the DA's office still and we're checking up on this and hopefully we'll get you on your way or if we indeed do have to arrest you.
Me: thats fine sir.
Officer 4 then proceeds to check up on my well-being as it was a little warm out today and asked if I was ok. I told him the cuffs were on a bit tight (which I took pictures of the slight bruising) and he was kind enough to loosen them up a bit. He said "The cuffs were'nt double locked like they shoulda been and thats why they're too tight" Again, wish my recorder hadnt of died because this would make a good arguement right there. Officer 4 then gave me a polite interview just asking what I do for a living and this is where my off duty status just had to come into play, I didnt want it to because like I stated earlier, my job status should not have any bearings on my right to open carry.
About 5 minutes goes by and then Officer's 1 and 4 come over again, open the door and proceed to tel me that I am now under arrest but did not give me my Miranda Rights then and there. So, they proceeded to take me out of the cruiser and then proceed to give me a full patdown. I was then told by Officer 1
Officer 1: Ok james, what we're gonna do now is we're gonna go over to the station, we'll write you up a citation for this incident and then your weapon will be impounded. You'll have to go to the courts to get a court order, then bring us that said court order and then we'll release the weapon back to you.
He then walks me over to his cruiser and places me in the back seat of it. Now the police station is literally right across the street from the Parkway Plaza Mall on the opposite corner. So its only like maybe not even a 3 or 4 minute car ride. We get there, he walks me into the building and put me in their interview area. I was given another courtesy patdown as per their policy which is in plain view on the wall in black and white and told to have a seat on the bench.
There were a couple of gangbangers in there and they removed them immediately I am guessing because of my off duty status. There, Officer 1 proceeded to ask me the usual where I live, job, place of birth yadda yada yadda. He then proceeded to read my Miranda Rights and after that I just kept quiet. Officer 3 showed up and then proceeded to take my pictures all the way around. He even took pictures of my still attached Blackhawk Serpta Holster and mag pouches on the opposite side of my hip. I was asked by Officer 1 who my duty WC was and told him and gave him the number.
After awhile of just sitting there, Officer 3 comes back to inform me that there are two different DA's argueing over the legality of all of this and that this would probably take another ten minutes.
Those ten minutes roll by and then Officer 1 comes back to inform me that because of the two DA's argueing the case, I was no longer under arrest and was to be released with all my posessions immediately including weapons and ammunition. He also informed me that he would give me a ride to me POV and that there was no other reason to detain me any longer then necessary.
He gave me a ride back to the car and then we proceeded to talk off the record about open carry and all and we shared a few war stories. I told him that I know he was just doing his job and that I appreciated all of them being courtous and professional.
For those of you reading this, I want to point out that some of this officers in this department, I grew up with, so they know me and know what I do for a living. I just wished out of all of this exprience, they knew more about the open carry law.
So, please let me know if I did anything right or wrong during this and look forward to hearing from everyone on this topic. I also encourage you to please PM me if you want me to tell you personally.
Thanks guys and keep it up. My only thing here, is I didnt have any of the pamplets as I felt those probably woulda helped. Take care and god bless....
Oh, one more thing that I thought was funny. After they told me I was no longer under arrest, Officer 3 admitted to me that he hated where I was standing...right in front of a mirror so that I could see them coming. So much for tactical approach huh....lol.