I WAS working the polling station untill about 30 min ago OC related

[skidmark]

So it seems to come down to whether or not Pagan was a paid employee or merely a private citizen.

This is going to be interesting. The popcorn is making me thirsty - would someone please get me a Diet Coke the next time they are going past the concession stand? Thanks.

stay safe.

ETA - Seems that the requirement to properly train Pagan was slightly overlooked. That's not going to count for much, except in possibly getting the BoE to jam something egregious into their rules for next time.

 

[ProShooter]

ETA - Seems that the requirement to properly train Pagan was slightly overlooked. That's not going to count for much, except in possibly getting the BoE to jam something egregious into their rules for next time.

SBE did nothing with my suggestions regarding citizens carrying, so don't expect much to change regarding election employees.

 

[MilProGuy]

Lucky you aren't in Texas. It's illegal to have a firearm at a polling place

Also illegal in the state of Mississippi.

 

[Glockster]

So it seems to come down to whether or not Pagan was a paid employee or merely a private citizen.

This is going to be interesting. The popcorn is making me thirsty - would someone please get me a Diet Coke the next time they are going past the concession stand? Thanks.

stay safe.

ETA - Seems that the requirement to properly train Pagan was slightly overlooked. That's not going to count for much, except in possibly getting the BoE to jam something egregious into their rules for next time.

My point exactly - if not paid, not an employee of anyone's. That's a wholly different set of rules.

 

[USNA69]

Some may recall that I started this "dust-up" about a year ago, after relating my conversation with my Norfolk precinct Election Officer.

So, back to the polls today, knowing that he will again be the Election Officer. I could have carried and stood my legal ground, but I did not want to put him on the spot, as he is a long-time friend. But, I was prepared to be asked the question, and I had resolved not to reply. I was prepared to tell him that, if he suspected that I was carrying, he should abide by his regulations and call a LEO. I was prepared to demand to know the RAS or PC for any search, for which I would not have granted permission. Of course, they would have found nothing, and I would have it all recorded on the DVR. My next call would have been to USER.

Well, it did not unfold quite that way. He asked nothing, as I showed my picture ID and voted. We chatted afterward, and he wondered if I was going to ask the "Big Question". I said that I had planned to ask nothing, but was prepared for his "Big Question". As we reviewed the events of the previous year and that the SBE had not revised their policy ... he told me that he was CC. He added that he had cleared it with the election board and had written permission in his pocket.

What does all this mean? It means that there is "something rotten in Gloucester County".

 

[MilProGuy]

Also illegal in the state of Mississippi.

My apologies to those on the Virginia forum for interjecting this comment about Mississippi law.

 

[skidmark]

USNA69 -

Any chance your friend would be willing to part with his "permission slip" after he gets off work tonight? I know someone who would like to compare that with their own experience?

OK, on reflection it may be better not to get your friend in trouble. But it is interesting to see that one county's head person seems to think they could give permission.

stay safe.

 

[Pagan]

So if I was just an employee of the county for a day and expected to abide by employee rules, I should be able to find the rule book, should I not?

 

[Uber_Olafsun]

So if I was just an employee of the county for a day and expected to abide by employee rules, I should be able to find the rule book, should I not?

You figure they would have made you read them if that was the case.

 

[Glockster]

So if I was just an employee of the county for a day and expected to abide by employee rules, I should be able to find the rule book, should I not?

One question that at least some of us are waiting to hear about -- so they are paying you then? Not being an attorney and all that, but having been an employer for about 20 years now....did you fill out employee related paperwork such as a W-4? Signed paperwork agreeing to be designated an employee? Signed any agreement saying that you are required to be paid? Asking all of this based on the above exception that I found if you're not being paid that you cannot be considered to be an employee (and their employee rules cannot then apply to you).

 

[2a4all]

I am here at my polling place now. I am an Assistant Chief in Lorton. I am Open Carrying a full-size Springfield XD-45. I have had a couple questions but no issues. I will give a full update on my thread at the end of the night.

I will say this. It is 100% legal to open carry while serving as an election officer. In my opinion, they did not have grounds to ask you to leave. I did some extensve research and found no prohibition.

Edit: In order to remove a person from the polling place they must be disturbing or interferin with the election. It requires the majority of the election officers to ask a person to leave. I am not sure how much authority the registrar has in this regard.

§ 24.2-607. Prohibited conduct; intimidation of voters; disturbance of election; how prevented; penalties.

A. It shall be unlawful for any person to hinder, intimidate, or interfere with any qualified voter so as to prevent the voter from casting a secret ballot. The officers of election may order a person violating this subsection to cease such action. If such person does not promptly desist, the officers of election, or a majority of them, may order the arrest of such person by any person authorized by law to make arrests, and, by their warrant, may commit him to the county or city jail, as the case may be, for a period not exceeding twenty-four hours. Any person violating this subsection shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

B. No person shall conduct himself in a noisy or riotous manner at or about the polls so as to disturb the election or insult or abuse an officer of election. Any person authorized to make arrests may forthwith arrest a person engaging in such conduct and bring him before the officers of the election, and they, by their warrant, may commit him to the county or city jail, as the case may be, for a period not exceeding twenty-four hours; but they shall permit him to vote if he is so entitled.

Pagan, this statute is very subjective. All it would take is for someone to complain (which it appears did happen), and you become the object of unwanted attention. The "any person" term doesn't appear to exclude officers of election. If the registrar is in error, she'll be able to claim "it's on the side of caution".

I was neither HINDERING nor INTERFERRING and certainly not INTIMIDATING anybody, from the few voters I was able to check in, ALL of them were polite, friendly even, and seemingly in good spirits. And since I was seated behind a table and a computer with my weapon only visible from very close proximity, highly doubtful any non officers were even aware of my it.

I'm sorry you went to all that trouble to serve your community for nothing. While you may think you caused no problem, it appears that in the opinion of the Chief Election Officer, your OC'd weapon either did or might cause someone to be intimidated enought to not vote. Sometimes because we only talk to each other on this forum, it sounds like we make the only noise in the world. Unfortunately, we don't, and the general public still has notions about what constitutes proper decorum, and OCing handguns doesn't always make the cut. Apparently your supervisor lives in that realm. Arguing with her will be futile.

Was she wrong to insist that you leave? Depends on whom you ask when, and if, you can appeal her decision.

 

[mk4]

SBE did nothing with my suggestions regarding citizens carrying, so don't expect much to change regarding election employees.

Jim,
Your efforts re: "citizens carrying" pre-date my time on the forum. Would you be so kind as to link me to the information, if it's on the forum?

For reference, I was carrying while voting late today in Greene County. I "made" three fellow voters that had cc slip-ups. Either no one else noticed or it was just no big deal to anyone who caught it.

Thx!

 

[ProShooter]

Jim,
Your efforts re: "citizens carrying" pre-date my time on the forum. Would you be so kind as to link me to the information, if it's on the forum?

For reference, I was carrying while voting late today in Greene County. I "made" three fellow voters that had cc slip-ups. Either no one else noticed or it was just no big deal to anyone who caught it.

Thx!

Its not on the forum. It was a suggested list of changes to be made to the policy regarding the public carrying guns while voting. I'd have to hunt it down. Probably lost somewhere in my computer since I couldnt find it 2 weeks ago either..

 

[nuc65]

If the head of elections that made this decision on behalf of the government then government must hear the grievance. If you volunteered you were not an employee. You were a citizen doing his civic duty, this leaves no room for government interference without just cause in your matters. Instilling fear requires an overt act by any litmus test. Many members of this forum seem to wish to interject legal bogey-men into your matter. I would not let it rest, your civil rights were interfered with in an unjust manner by a government official which requires more than a general feeling of discomfort to discard without cause your civic minded duties that you were performing.

In 3 days hence will be a day of remembering those who served or are serving that your rights remain intact. The law of the land is still the constitution regardless of how some would like to rid themselves of that pesky little piece of paper. Don't rest on others opinions.

 

[Marco]

If the head of elections that made this decision on behalf of the government then government must hear the grievance. If you volunteered you were not an employee. You were a citizen doing his civic duty, this leaves no room for government interference without just cause in your matters. Instilling fear requires an overt act by any litmus test. Many members of this forum seem to wish to interject legal bogey-men into your matter. I would not let it rest, your civil rights were interfered with in an unjust manner by a government official which requires more than a general feeling of discomfort to discard without cause your civic minded duties that you were performing.

In 3 days hence will be a day of remembering those who served or are serving that your rights remain intact. The law of the land is still the constitution regardless of how some would like to rid themselves of that pesky little piece of paper. Don't rest on others opinions.

1+

in Greene County. I "made" three fellow voters that had cc slip-ups. Either no one else noticed or it was just no big deal to anyone who caught it.

It wasn't me I OC'd, we voted at the American Legion Hall on RT230.

 

[mk4]

It wasn't me I OC'd, we voted at the American Legion Hall on RT230.

i voted at the fire station just off 33, not far west the 29 /33 intersection. i was va tuck at the time and saw no other oc'ers.

 

[Thundar]

I OC'ed while voting at Pandora Lodge #2 in Newport News.

 

[paramedic70002]

FWIW the Title of that Fed Code you are accused of violating is:

[h=1]42 USC 1973 - Sec. 1973. Denial or abridgement of right to vote on account of race or color through voting qualifications or prerequisites; establishment of violation[/h]

 

[Riana]

FWIW the Title of that Fed Code you are accused of violating is:

42 USC 1973 - Sec. 1973. Denial or abridgement of right to vote on account of race or color through voting qualifications or prerequisites; establishment of violation

Well, it WAS a black gun...

I do hope you get a response from the Board of Elections folks.

 

[skidmark]

Well, it WAS a black gun...

I do hope you get a response from the Board of Elections folks.

Hope in one hand and .....

The more I look at how the BoE folks are trying to frame the issue the more I'm convinced they are going to say the avenue of complaint is via the State Employee Grievance Procedure. And that Pagan does not qualify to use the procedure because he was not some particular class of employee as opposed to being some other class of employee - in other words, Catch-22.

stay safe.