zekester
Regular Member
Intro to Officer Adrian Alan,
“Prior to beginning my law enforcement career, I was a student at UW, an avid sportsman and competition shooter. I was also a board member of the UW student gun club. I worked with groups and lobbied on behalf of the Personal Protection Act. Ironically, 10 years ago, I researched and advocated open carry marches long before anyone was willing to step up and do it...I also have prior law enforcement experience in a state where contacting law abiding, armed citizens was routine.”
“They feel that their actions are equally protected under the first amendment as anyone who is protesting abortion, war, taxes, gay marriage, or any of the other issues we see people around here protesting. 99% of them are not looking to trip us up so they can sue us later. Their goal is to educate the public and the police. And clearly, we need to swallow our pride and realize our officers do need some education on this issue based on their performance in the last few incidents.”
“While there are always exceptions, the people in these groups are law abiding citizens from all walks of life. While most are conservatives, there are many liberal gun owners too who are involved. Most are supportive of the police, though they also feel we have an arrogance or elitist sense of entitlement when it comes to firearms (cops always like to say that we have special training that makes us better/safer/more competent when it comes to guns, though in reality, that is probably not always true). They are not the typical gun toting, crack-dealing mopes we are used to dealing with, and they're not a bunch of right-wing, racist, militia members either. Most are the type who would be the first to help an officer in distress on the side of the road. They want to carry a firearm for the same reasons many police officers choose to do so off duty – to protect themselves and their families, and instead of dismissing them as weirdos – we need to keep open minds and understand they feel the same way about keeping their families safe as we do.”
“They are educated about the law and their rights. They will carefully plan WHERE they are going to open carry to make sure 1) they are not breaking ANY laws (i.e not in bars, not next to a school, etc) 2) in a very public place where people will see them. They do not intend to scare people or intimidate anyone – but they want people to notice the. They will carefully unload and transport their firearm encased in their vehicles so they do not violate obscure DNR/hunting laws. “
“Of course, we always have to be safe when contacting anyone, armed or not, but if we approach these people like law abiding citizens and engage them as we would any other citizen, most of them will be very cooperative. They are expecting police contact when they are open carrying. While they will believe they have done nothing wrong to warrant such contact, most understand in Madison it is pretty much inevitable and will be willing to cooperate and 'educate' us on their cause...”
“People we contact open carrying will become upset if we start the contact assuming they are criminals. This doesn't mean we throw caution to the wind and assume they are good guys either. Our safety is of course, paramount. We are trained to assume EVERYONE we contact is a potential threat and may be armed. But we have to be reasonable...Obviously if we gun everyone who is open carrying, the city is going to be paying out some big settlements. I think officers have been trained that gun=bad guy, and that's not always the case now, and will be less so in the future. We will have to learn that we need to take into account a person's behavior and other circumstances as well.”
If we approach in a heavy handed manner, demanding or making assumptions, they will go on the defensive – like other law abiding people we contact and suspect of doing wrong. They will refuse to answer questions, they will refuse consent to search, they will say things like 'am I under arrest or am I free to go?' You know the type of person I'm talking about. They will make our job tough and will be ready to make us look bad if we screw up. I don't want to defend anyone who refuses to cooperate or give us ID – I have a feeling if the guys at Culver's had simply given us ID and talked with us, they would have been able to go back to their dinner a lot quicker – but they have no obligation to provide ID, and we have no legal ground to essentially search their weapon and run the serial number. Perhaps if officers had begun with a different approach, things could have been handled more cordially without the unpleasant media attention that followed. I certainly wasn't there and don't want to criticize but the buzz I have heard from the gun-rights community since the Culver's incident, is the Madison police department is incompetent, and to an extent, a little heavy handed.”
“These guys know their laws. They probably know the specific gun laws better than most of us. They know we can't arrest them for DC for open carry, and they know we can't arrest them for obstructing for not providing ID. Most of these guys know more about guns than the average police officer, and they're probably better pistol shooters too. They will be agitated if we disarm them and if we start trying to unload their $2000 custom handguns, especially if its a gun the officer isn't familiar with, and fiddles with it for 45 seconds trying to make it 'safe'. We'll also look like a bunch of clowns. They are going to be really upset if we start running the serial numbers of their guns to check if they are stolen when we have no basis to do so. I think most of us would be taken aback if another officer asked to run the serial number of our firearm, or search our car – and these guys feel the same way. We just can't assume that everyone carrying a gun is a felon with a stolen gun anymore. The times are changing.”
“That doesn't mean we shouldn't disarm people if we feel it necessary, but if we do it as an across the board approach, its going to lead to conflict, bad press, and law suits...Just because we can, doesn't mean we always should.”
Officer Adrian Alan
City of Madison Police Department
South District
825 Hughes Place
Madison, WI 53713
608-266-5938 Ph
608-266-4453 Fax
"THE CLAIM AND EXERCISE OF A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT CANNOT BE CONVERTED INTO A CRIME." - Miller v*U.S., 230 F 2d 486. 489. "
“Prior to beginning my law enforcement career, I was a student at UW, an avid sportsman and competition shooter. I was also a board member of the UW student gun club. I worked with groups and lobbied on behalf of the Personal Protection Act. Ironically, 10 years ago, I researched and advocated open carry marches long before anyone was willing to step up and do it...I also have prior law enforcement experience in a state where contacting law abiding, armed citizens was routine.”
“They feel that their actions are equally protected under the first amendment as anyone who is protesting abortion, war, taxes, gay marriage, or any of the other issues we see people around here protesting. 99% of them are not looking to trip us up so they can sue us later. Their goal is to educate the public and the police. And clearly, we need to swallow our pride and realize our officers do need some education on this issue based on their performance in the last few incidents.”
“While there are always exceptions, the people in these groups are law abiding citizens from all walks of life. While most are conservatives, there are many liberal gun owners too who are involved. Most are supportive of the police, though they also feel we have an arrogance or elitist sense of entitlement when it comes to firearms (cops always like to say that we have special training that makes us better/safer/more competent when it comes to guns, though in reality, that is probably not always true). They are not the typical gun toting, crack-dealing mopes we are used to dealing with, and they're not a bunch of right-wing, racist, militia members either. Most are the type who would be the first to help an officer in distress on the side of the road. They want to carry a firearm for the same reasons many police officers choose to do so off duty – to protect themselves and their families, and instead of dismissing them as weirdos – we need to keep open minds and understand they feel the same way about keeping their families safe as we do.”
“They are educated about the law and their rights. They will carefully plan WHERE they are going to open carry to make sure 1) they are not breaking ANY laws (i.e not in bars, not next to a school, etc) 2) in a very public place where people will see them. They do not intend to scare people or intimidate anyone – but they want people to notice the. They will carefully unload and transport their firearm encased in their vehicles so they do not violate obscure DNR/hunting laws. “
“Of course, we always have to be safe when contacting anyone, armed or not, but if we approach these people like law abiding citizens and engage them as we would any other citizen, most of them will be very cooperative. They are expecting police contact when they are open carrying. While they will believe they have done nothing wrong to warrant such contact, most understand in Madison it is pretty much inevitable and will be willing to cooperate and 'educate' us on their cause...”
“People we contact open carrying will become upset if we start the contact assuming they are criminals. This doesn't mean we throw caution to the wind and assume they are good guys either. Our safety is of course, paramount. We are trained to assume EVERYONE we contact is a potential threat and may be armed. But we have to be reasonable...Obviously if we gun everyone who is open carrying, the city is going to be paying out some big settlements. I think officers have been trained that gun=bad guy, and that's not always the case now, and will be less so in the future. We will have to learn that we need to take into account a person's behavior and other circumstances as well.”
If we approach in a heavy handed manner, demanding or making assumptions, they will go on the defensive – like other law abiding people we contact and suspect of doing wrong. They will refuse to answer questions, they will refuse consent to search, they will say things like 'am I under arrest or am I free to go?' You know the type of person I'm talking about. They will make our job tough and will be ready to make us look bad if we screw up. I don't want to defend anyone who refuses to cooperate or give us ID – I have a feeling if the guys at Culver's had simply given us ID and talked with us, they would have been able to go back to their dinner a lot quicker – but they have no obligation to provide ID, and we have no legal ground to essentially search their weapon and run the serial number. Perhaps if officers had begun with a different approach, things could have been handled more cordially without the unpleasant media attention that followed. I certainly wasn't there and don't want to criticize but the buzz I have heard from the gun-rights community since the Culver's incident, is the Madison police department is incompetent, and to an extent, a little heavy handed.”
“These guys know their laws. They probably know the specific gun laws better than most of us. They know we can't arrest them for DC for open carry, and they know we can't arrest them for obstructing for not providing ID. Most of these guys know more about guns than the average police officer, and they're probably better pistol shooters too. They will be agitated if we disarm them and if we start trying to unload their $2000 custom handguns, especially if its a gun the officer isn't familiar with, and fiddles with it for 45 seconds trying to make it 'safe'. We'll also look like a bunch of clowns. They are going to be really upset if we start running the serial numbers of their guns to check if they are stolen when we have no basis to do so. I think most of us would be taken aback if another officer asked to run the serial number of our firearm, or search our car – and these guys feel the same way. We just can't assume that everyone carrying a gun is a felon with a stolen gun anymore. The times are changing.”
“That doesn't mean we shouldn't disarm people if we feel it necessary, but if we do it as an across the board approach, its going to lead to conflict, bad press, and law suits...Just because we can, doesn't mean we always should.”
Officer Adrian Alan
City of Madison Police Department
South District
825 Hughes Place
Madison, WI 53713
608-266-5938 Ph
608-266-4453 Fax
"THE CLAIM AND EXERCISE OF A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT CANNOT BE CONVERTED INTO A CRIME." - Miller v*U.S., 230 F 2d 486. 489. "