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Incident at walmart
- Thread starter Sc0tt
- Start date
Heres a great idea quit armchair commando-ing'the man considering NO ONE else was there beside the OP.
The woulda, shoulda, coulda crowd drive me nuts, if the cop was going to arrest him they would have. In most cases just showing a firearm scares off criminals like it did here. Showing a firearm does not necessary mean drawing a firearm sat the perp, if it requires further action by drawing it then so be.
Now my personal opine
Having your hand on your firearm in the ready position is not brandishing. Our laws arer similar to the OP and all the times as an armed guard I had my hand on my firearm during several nasty incidents and each time I have had to go to court for them the Judge has said I was NOT in the wrong nor was I ever charged.
The woulda, shoulda, coulda crowd drive me nuts, if the cop was going to arrest him they would have. In most cases just showing a firearm scares off criminals like it did here. Showing a firearm does not necessary mean drawing a firearm sat the perp, if it requires further action by drawing it then so be.
Now my personal opine
Having your hand on your firearm in the ready position is not brandishing. Our laws arer similar to the OP and all the times as an armed guard I had my hand on my firearm during several nasty incidents and each time I have had to go to court for them the Judge has said I was NOT in the wrong nor was I ever charged.
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Average Dad
Regular Member
Agree with NavyLT
I'd have called 911, watched, maybe even yelled that I had PD on the phone, but nothing more. It was the Wally Worlds AM who had the responsibility to act, not the OPs. If the situation grew more violent, then the response would need to be reevaluated.
IMHO the OP was lucky not have a brandishing charge.
I'd have called 911, watched, maybe even yelled that I had PD on the phone, but nothing more. It was the Wally Worlds AM who had the responsibility to act, not the OPs. If the situation grew more violent, then the response would need to be reevaluated.
IMHO the OP was lucky not have a brandishing charge.
Heres a great idea quit armchair commando-ing'the man considering NO ONE else was there beside the OP.
The woulda, shoulda, coulda crowd drive me nuts, if the cop was going to arrest him they would have. In most cases just showing a firearm scares off criminals like it did here.
Now my personal court experiences with this.
Having your hand on your firearm in the ready position is not brandishing. Our laws our similar to the OP and all the times as a armed guard I had my hand on my firearm during several nasty incidents. Each time I have had to go to court for them the Judge has said I was NOT in the wrong in having my hand on my weapon in the ready.
The woulda, shoulda, coulda crowd drive me nuts, if the cop was going to arrest him they would have. In most cases just showing a firearm scares off criminals like it did here.
Now my personal court experiences with this.
Having your hand on your firearm in the ready position is not brandishing. Our laws our similar to the OP and all the times as a armed guard I had my hand on my firearm during several nasty incidents. Each time I have had to go to court for them the Judge has said I was NOT in the wrong in having my hand on my weapon in the ready.
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eye95
Well-known member
Does no one know the meaning of the word "brandish"?
Barring black-letter law from NC or case law from NC defining brandish differently, the common definition applies and the OP did NOT brandish! Look it up!!!
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EYE95 you know we have lazy members here
JamesCanby
Activist Member
Some of my replies are embedded above in navy.
For the love of all that's holy, PLEASE look up an actual definition of "brandishing." You are demonstrating an incredible lack of understanding of the term. Barring black-letter law (from NC, where this happened) defining brandishing otherwise, or case law (again, from NC) which defines brandishing (the one cite above that does clearly demonstrates one key facet of brandishing: that the gun is out), the common definition of brandishing applies. Look it up!
Enough of this distraction. Either put up a definition of brandishing that supports you contention, or I will move on and not bother to reply.
The OP did not brandish.
Please do move on. Your replies are tending to become personal and we have seen enough of that on this forum. It is obvious that you will not be swayed by anyone's opinion that disagrees with yours and you are tending to disagree, disagreeably.
eye95
Well-known member
I am agreeable to differing opinions. I don't suffer the deliberate ignorance of the simplest of definitions gladly. I guess I shall have to move on.
Folks, it ain't that hard to look up a word and enlighten yourself. "Brandish" has a very specific definition, and, unless it is specifically changed by State (in this case, NORTH CAROLINA) law, that's what it means.
Folks, it ain't that hard to look up a word and enlighten yourself. "Brandish" has a very specific definition, and, unless it is specifically changed by State (in this case, NORTH CAROLINA) law, that's what it means.
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JamesCanby
Activist Member
There you go again. I did look up the word in several contexts and supplied legal definition bolstered by legal advice and case law. There is no "deliberate ignorance" here. I am relying on that advice about brandishing according to Virginia law, cases and legal advice. Brandishing does not need a "key facet" of being out of the holster, at least here in Virginia. The fact that you disagree with my cites does not give you the right to disagree so disagreeably. The fact that you support wrong behavior -- in this and other threads, e.g., the man that assaulted the skateboarder -- debases your otherwise strong input on this board.
Moving on.
Dreamer
Regular Member
OK, first of all, I've been watching this "goat rope" of a thread for a while, and it seems like a lot of the respondents are from VA.
In VA, you have the benefit of having a statutory definition of "brandishing". It makes the situation of whether or not someone is "brandishing" in self-defense a LOT more easy to figure out, because in VA, you guys have the rules VERY clearly defined. And if the OP's situation had happened in VA, he would, indeed, have been guilty of brandishing.
But as we all know, it would have been dependent on his attitude, the attitude of the attending LEOs, the location of the incident, local politics with regards to OC and self-defense rights, and unfortunately, the races of the OP and the "assailant". Because even in VA, "Brandishing" isn't an automatic charge, and in many "righteous" self-defense situations it gets tossed aside under the auspices of "officer discretion"...
But down here in the Tarheel State, we have NO statutory definition for "brandishing". In fact, there is NO statutory definition about ANYTHING involving showing, grabbing, or otherwise making threatening displays of a firearm, as long as the firearm is otherwise being carried in a lawful manner.
What this has resulted in is a situation where the ENTIRE body of NC law regarding "brandishing" or "threatening display" rests on dubious case law, wildly variant judicial activism, and spurious (and often personally-biased) officer discretion.
In other words, situations involving potential "brandishing" charges in NC are a Mongolian Cluster Foxtrot of epic proportions waiting to happen.
The most common way that LEOs and the courts deal with situations that involve brandishing (or threatening display) is to evoke an archaic Common Law precedent based on Pre-Colonial British Common Law (which, is, under the US and NC Constitutions, NULL AND VOID, with regards to applicability to US Jurisprudence, BTW) and conjour up a charge they call "Going Armed to the Terror of the People".
To my knowledge, nobody has EVER been charged with "Brandishing" in NC. They charge us with GAttTotP down here. It's awkward, it's unconstitutional, it's un-statutory, and a good argument can be made that the Common Law it is based on (pre-colonial British Common Law) is not even recognized in our Courts as legitimate source for Case Law precedent.
In other words, the Law is a colossal goat-rope in NC on this issue...
Scott, I have three VERY important things to tell you, and I HIGHLY recommend that you commit these to memory.
1) you had NO WAY of knowing how this altercation started, or what caused the one guy to punch the other guy. For all you know, the guy who threw the punch may have been being harassed, stalked, and badgered by the "victim" for days, and this was the final straw, and he felt backed into a corner and so he lashed out. If you EVERY come to the defense of a 3rd party with lethal force (or even the THREAT of lethal force) under NC law, you had better be DAMN certain that the person you are defending is 100% in the right, and did NOTHING to start, instigate, escalate, or promote the ensuing violent event.
Because under NC law, if the person you are defending is even 1% in the wrong, you CAN be charged with a BOATLOAD of assault-related and firearms-related violations even if you never pulled the trigger...
You have OBVIOUSLY never taken a NC Concealed Handgun Permit class--which would have educated you as to the appropriate situations where you can and cannot pull a gun in self-defense (or defense of others). Even if you don't get the permit, the class is full of good legal information, and will educate you as to when it is and isn't appropriate to come to someone's aid.
You sound like you have good intentions, but you're TOTALLY clueless as to what the law in NC is in these situations, and if you continue to carry under your current state of ignorance, you will eventually find yourself in a situation where you will be facing a VERY big fine, the loss of your 2A rights, or even an extended visit to prison.
Get a clue. Get some training. Take a CHP class, bro...
2) No matter what state you are in, you NEVER put your hand on your gun in public unless you are in the process of pulling it out to fire it. NEVER. Period. End of Discussion. This isn't the streets of Kandahar. We have laws here in the "civilian" world. And f you are going to move about in our world, you need to learn, respect, and follow those rules.
Get a clue. Get some training. Take a self-defense class from a qualified instructor, bro...
3) Despite what all these other people are telling you (from NC and VA) there is NO violation called "brandishing" in NC. Down here it's called something ENTIRELY different, and has a COMPLETELY different set of rules, and they are very loosely-defined and leave a LOT of freedom for interpretation by LEOs and the Courts. Don't listen to ANYONE who hasn't studied NC Law about this issue--because in NC, its screwed up, convoluted, has a patchy history, and has no basis on any sort of discernible reality, statute, or even legitimate US case law. Essentially our entire case-law precedent on this issue hinged on one case from the 1800's, which cited as it's precedent a pre-Colonial BRITISH case.
Down here, we call this violation "Going Armed to the Terror of the People".
And being charged (and even found guilty) of GAttTotP does NOT require you to be waving a gun around in your hand. You can have in it a holster. You can have it slung across your shoulder on a sling. You can have it in your pocket. Do don't ever have to even touch it with your hands. Because under NC Case Law precedent, this violation is purely "intent-based". It has NOTHING to do with the kind of weapon you're carrying, the mode of carry, or even the way you were acting as you were walking down the street.
GAttTotP hinges ENTIRELY on the INTENT of the person carrying or displaying the firearm. So in NC, it's the content's of your heart, NOT the content of your hands that determines whether you are guilty of this violation.
At least that's how it works in theory.
In PRACTICE, it's an entirely different story.
Many police will use threats of this charge to discourage OC. We are slowly getting the LEAs and judges in this state as to the fact that OC is legal, and GAttTotP--even under their won convoluted, racist, classist, discretionary system--DOES NOT APPLY to lawful Open Carry...
They often use GAttTotP as a "piling on" charge in criminal cases like robbery or assault, because it helps the DA's build a more convincing case. There is no Statute in NC that defines brandishing, or improper open display, or whatever, and MOST people who are going to end up on jury are so uneducated and clueless as to how screwed up NC firearms laws are that they don't see through this ridiculous ploy, and will go along with it.
So what it boils down to is that you WERE carrying a gun--LEGALLY.
You DID display it with the specific intent of intimidating, frightening, or bringing fear into someone (admittedly, a bad guy, but that's inconsequential in this case).
You did not (for some BIZARRE reason) get charged with GAttTotP after admitting to the LEO what you had done, and having this corroborated by several witnesses.
You, sir, should consider yourself LUCKY.
Now, while you are on a lucky streak, I'd suggest getting to a qualified self-defense instructor and getting some training as to the LEGAL obligations and limitations you have as someone who carries for self-defense.
Because if you continue down this path in your current state, you will, at the very least, get charged with GAttTotP or assault. And at the very worst, you may end up shooting someone you shouldn't have shot, which means a VERY guilty conscience and a potentially VERY long stay in a rather unpleasant state-owned facility...
PLEASE, for your own safety, the safety of those around you, and the good name of the Open Carry movement, get some freaking training, dude.
I'm begging you...
Just because you're EOD, and they tell you that you are an Immortal God in the Army, doesn't mean squat in the civilian world. You are flesh and blood, just like the rest of us, and the SAME rules that apply to us all apply to you when you're not active duty. You are NOT a god. I know that may be hard for you to understand, because you've had it pounded into your head for years as part of your training, but out here, in the "real world" the rules are different, and you are NOT--contrary to the VERY effective brainwashing that Uncle Sam as subjected you to--a God...
You need to learn the rules if you want to play the "civilian sandbox".
If you can't handle the subtle, convoluted, and confusing legal restrictions of the "civilian world" and you want to run around playing "savior of the innocent" then I'd suggest that you re-enlist and stay on base, or get deployed somewhere where you don't have to worry about silly things like case law, Statutes, or Common Law Precedent.
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Dreamer
Regular Member
Exactly.
There is no violation called "brandishing" under NC Statute.
And the whole GAttTotP thing isn't statutorily defined either. It's ENTIRELY grounded in case law and common law precedent.
And the determination of whether or not you have committed this violation is ENTIRELY hinged on the stated intent (or his intent, as generally understood by the People) of the alleged violator...
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JamesCanby
Activist Member
I agree 100% with this comprehensive, meaningful and polite response....
Perfect
Dreamer
Regular Member
Yes.
And I would say that this same approach would be applicable in ANY state, not just NC. It's not so much about the laws regarding "brandishing" as it is about injecting yourself into an unknown situation and treading dangerously close to vigilantism.
If you are not personally involved in the incident, and do not fully know the totality of the lead-up to the situation, it is nearly impossible to determine which side "started it". And under NC law, the person who "started it" might not be the only one in the wrong. If the "victim" walks away, then comes back and starts up with the original attacker, then he is also in the wrong.
If the "victim" isn't me, or my family, or someone who I am intimately familiar with, then I would be loathe to use deadly force in their "defense". Personally, I would not be willing to inject myself into most situations involving strangers. Appearances can be deceiving.
And I DEFINITELY wouldn't be threatening to use a firearm to defuse a verbal argument.
If the guy has a tire iron, knife, golf club, baseball bat or other weapon in his hand, that would be one thing, but he was just a loud-mouthed hothead.
It's not a matter of "not helping someone in danger". It's a matter of injecting yourself into a situation where you don't know the entirety of the story. We're not supposed to be carrying to "keep people in line" or to be some sort of vigilante's. We carry for Self Defense, and injecting yourself into an unknown situation involving people you do not know is NOT self-defense--it's reckless, uninformed vigilantism...
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JamesCanby
Activist Member
eye95
Well-known member
Because we had folks accusing the OP of brandishing without knowing what the term means nor bothering to look it up. It's something of a disease here to think that the mere exposure of a gun amounts to brandishing.
The word brandish has a very clear meaning. In law it is that common and clear meaning unless the law specifically says differently.
Instead we have some guy so intent on proving something that cannot be proved by using the wrong State's laws and claiming they say what they do not. He could have simply looked up the dictionary definition to realize how incredibly wrong he was. He could have searched for a definition of brandish in the NC law (as I did) and, finding none could've asked if there was one.
Instead he pressed on with his asinine insistence that the OP "brandished."
So, as he was making the assertion, I kept pressing him to find a dictionary definition or a legal (NC-type legal) definition to support his assertion. I knew he wouldn't. That left him with the possibility of admitting that the OP did not brandish or continue to put forth his unsubstantiated charge, while those who know what brandishing snickered. God know why, but he chose the latter.
Anyway, in my search to find a definition of "brandish" in NC law, I ran across a thread on another message board where someone related a story about how he flashed the gun on his hip has he reached for his wallet. A cop on the scene threatened to arrest him for "brandishing." Another officer posted back that the first cop was full of it. He said that in Indiana, the permit allows both CC and OC.
I think the myth that brandishing is simply revealing the weapon started with cops trying to nail CCers who inadvertently flashed their piece. Unfortunately, that totally incorrect definition got codified in some jurisdictions (not NC as far as I can tell) and ingrained in the psyches of some ignorant carriers.
That kind of ignorance should be corrected here, and when stubbornly held to, should be outed harshly.
The poster misusing the term could've just backed off and said, "Oh, I thought brandish meant something other than it actually does." Instead, he persisted in his ignorance, and I allowed him to do that, just pointing it out each time.
I bet dozens of others now have a firm idea of what the word brandish commonly means and that unless State law (NC law, in this case) says otherwise, the common definition is the one that judges would apply.
Bottom line: The OP did not brandish, no matter what the uninformed might insist upon.
Dreamer
Regular Member
But I'm sure you had your voice or video recorder rolling the entire time. So please post a link to the YouTube or Vimeo of your recording.
Sc0tt
Regular Member
OK People lets get some facts straight. so we can get the armchair commandoing to a min.
When I first approached I got the details from the party asulted as well as several witness that the man who was asulted was in a car behind the agressesor. When the agressor began to back up , not knowing that the other car was back there he blew his horn to prevent him from hitting him. The two parties caught up at the front entrance. There was a confrontation where I witnessed the man be asulted. I stood aside, The AM came out and told him to leave which enraged him more so he began coming back towards the party he asulted. This is where I steeped in. I told the couple that had been assaulted to step inside of the store and call 911. The whole time he is yelling and cussing that hes going to whoop everyones ass and when I steeped in and told him he had been told to leave and the police had been called he then threated my life still walking towards me and the AM. At that point (While pepper spray or a baton would of been nice, they were both locked in my car since I had just gotten off work) with him cont to charge at me it was only then I unlocked the firearm from the holster I did not draw, and my hand never went on the grip. He began to walk away. When police arrived I notified them I was a witness, and filled out a statement.
Yes If I felt my like was in danger I would not of hesitated to fully draw and put 2-3 shots center mass (There was no telling what he was going back to the car to get) But only unlocking my holster was a safety precaution, esp since I place my self in between the two parties in an event to calm the situation.
I felt in acaordence with my security training I did the best possible I serrated the parties involved isolated the witnesses, and notified the police while keeping the aggressor at a distiance.
I guess it is easy to criticizes filed decisions from an armchair but this is what happened/
When I first approached I got the details from the party asulted as well as several witness that the man who was asulted was in a car behind the agressesor. When the agressor began to back up , not knowing that the other car was back there he blew his horn to prevent him from hitting him. The two parties caught up at the front entrance. There was a confrontation where I witnessed the man be asulted. I stood aside, The AM came out and told him to leave which enraged him more so he began coming back towards the party he asulted. This is where I steeped in. I told the couple that had been assaulted to step inside of the store and call 911. The whole time he is yelling and cussing that hes going to whoop everyones ass and when I steeped in and told him he had been told to leave and the police had been called he then threated my life still walking towards me and the AM. At that point (While pepper spray or a baton would of been nice, they were both locked in my car since I had just gotten off work) with him cont to charge at me it was only then I unlocked the firearm from the holster I did not draw, and my hand never went on the grip. He began to walk away. When police arrived I notified them I was a witness, and filled out a statement.
Yes If I felt my like was in danger I would not of hesitated to fully draw and put 2-3 shots center mass (There was no telling what he was going back to the car to get) But only unlocking my holster was a safety precaution, esp since I place my self in between the two parties in an event to calm the situation.
I felt in acaordence with my security training I did the best possible I serrated the parties involved isolated the witnesses, and notified the police while keeping the aggressor at a distiance.
I guess it is easy to criticizes filed decisions from an armchair but this is what happened/
eye95
Well-known member
NavyLT: I made no such equation. I hope you can detect that I was making two completely different, and only tangentially related, points.
I normally have intense respect for what you have to say (and I have said so several times). However, I find the way you are approaching this debate to be unacceptable. Feel free to reply to this post, I will not reply back to you on this matter until you can adopt a more adult tone.
Moving on.
I normally have intense respect for what you have to say (and I have said so several times). However, I find the way you are approaching this debate to be unacceptable. Feel free to reply to this post, I will not reply back to you on this matter until you can adopt a more adult tone.
Moving on.
JamesCanby
Activist Member
Because we had folks accusing the OP of brandishing without knowing what the term means nor bothering to look it up. It's something of a disease here to think that the mere exposure of a gun amounts to brandishing.
The word brandish has a very clear meaning. In law it is that common and clear meaning unless the law specifically says differently.
Instead we have some guy so intent on proving something that cannot be proved by using the wrong State's laws and claiming they say what they do not. He could have simply looked up the dictionary definition to realize how incredibly wrong he was. He could have searched for a definition of brandish in the NC law (as I did) and, finding none could've asked if there was one.
Instead he pressed on with his asinine insistence that the OP "brandished."
So, as he was making the assertion, I kept pressing him to find a dictionary definition or a legal (NC-type legal) definition to support his assertion. I knew he wouldn't. That left him with the possibility of admitting that the OP did not brandish or continue to put forth his unsubstantiated charge, while those who know what brandishing snickered. God know why, but he chose the latter.
Anyway, in my search to find a definition of "brandish" in NC law, I ran across a thread on another message board where someone related a story about how he flashed the gun on his hip has he reached for his wallet. A cop on the scene threatened to arrest him for "brandishing." Another officer posted back that the first cop was full of it. He said that in Indiana, the permit allows both CC and OC.
I think the myth that brandishing is simply revealing the weapon started with cops trying to nail CCers who inadvertently flashed their piece. Unfortunately, that totally incorrect definition got codified in some jurisdictions (not NC as far as I can tell) and ingrained in the psyches of some ignorant carriers.
That kind of ignorance should be corrected here, and when stubbornly held to, should be outed harshly.
The poster misusing the term could've just backed off and said, "Oh, I thought brandish meant something other than it actually does." Instead, he persisted in his ignorance, and I allowed him to do that, just pointing it out each time.
I bet dozens of others now have a firm idea of what the word brandish commonly means and that unless State law (NC law, in this case) says otherwise, the common definition is the one that judges would apply.
Bottom line: The OP did not brandish, no matter what the uninformed might insist upon.
The OP brandished. You know it, I know it and any reasonable person would arrive at the same conclusion. He interjected himself into a situation where he had no personal interest nor need for the possible use of deadly force, and used the presence of his firearm irresponsibly.
Repeatedly saying that I am uninformed and ignorant is a sad and unfortunate tactic that does not reflect well on you.
The only bewildering aspect is why you are defending his actions ....