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Individual rights v. governent intervention

J_dazzle23

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A great deal of effort could be put into resolving the differences non-violently, such as PistolPackingMomma gave example of I believe. I believe a great number of disputes, even involving abortion, could be resolved non-violently. Short of some non-violent method being successful, I suppose we could assume there would be cases when individuals would resort to violence. I'm still not sure how this acknowledgement of human behavior endangers the proposition of anarchy. Maybe I've just gotten lost in this long train of discussion.
Just using it as an example.

I think in isolated cases, you are probably right. But this is a hundreds of millions of people issue here, and it's a polarizing issue as well. Both parties feel they are protecting a human right of another. This is just an example of an issue that, in my opinion, will require some sort of....enforcement. (or better, VIABLE solution...which I'm a fan of)

Just my opinion. Not gospel.
 
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sudden valley gunner

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It's technically illegal to post up your kidney on craigslist, yeah. But you are allowed reimbursement for all expenses and mental/physical needs. Which who know how much.

So you were purposefully missing the point? There is no sale for profit, didn't think I had to spell that out. Oh wait I didn't you seem to acknowledge it in the next line.

But I still feel it a valid arguement, because just because something is for legal sale does not mean it wont get stolen. I'll spare the examples.

LOL....so making more theft and more murder and more problems to save the few times it will happen even if its for sale. That has worked so well with alcohol and drugs.

Second....I find it quite amusing you just made a very strong imply that everyone that feels abortion is murder supports bombing of abortion clinics. Or that the government has anything to do with bombed abortion clinics? That's interesting. Maybe I got the wrong gist there. I'm sure I'm just a bit confused there.

Definitely got the gist wrong I am starting to think its on purpose and more in line with my earlier thoughts you obfuscating. You evaded the question posed though.
 

stealthyeliminator

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Just using it as an example.

I think in isolated cases, you are probably right. But this is a hundreds of millions of people issue here, and it's a polarizing issue as well. Both parties feel they are protecting a human right of another. This is just an example of an issue that, in my opinion, will require some sort of....enforcement. (or better, VIABLE solution...which I'm a fan of)

Just my opinion. Not gospel.

I don't think "enforcement" is incompatible with "anarchy." I don't think that's been implied previously in the thread.
 

J_dazzle23

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So you were purposefully missing the point? There is no sale for profit, didn't think I had to spell that out. Oh wait I didn't you seem to acknowledge it in the next line.



LOL....so making more theft and more murder and more problems to save the few times it will happen even if its for sale. That has worked so well with alcohol and drugs.



Definitely got the gist wrong I am starting to think its on purpose and more in line with my earlier thoughts you obfuscating. You evaded the question posed though.

Please state your question. It's a little vague.


Is this whole prohibited kidney sales leading to more prevelant problems with kidney thefts universally appliciable? Just curious.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Selling a kidney is illegal right?

Without the government how are they going to enforce their beliefs have isolated bombing of abortion clinics? OH wait........

Please state your question. It's a little vague.


Is this whole prohibited kidney sales leading to more prevelant problems with kidney thefts universally appliciable? Just curious.

Not vague at all.

You brought up the kidney black market (the only reason a market is "black" is because of the state) leading to deaths.
Kidney Marktet.....people die because they are illegal to sell.....
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/walter...t-people-sell-their-organs-sick-needy-recipie
 
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J_dazzle23

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Not vague at all.

You brought up the kidney black market (the only reason a market is "black" is because of the state) leading to deaths.
Kidney Marktet.....people die because they are illegal to sell.....
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/walter...t-people-sell-their-organs-sick-needy-recipie
The black market is not from people selling their kidneys under the table, it's from people stealing kidneys and selling them under the table.

Being illegal is typically not going to be someone's first deterrent in giving up a kidney, imo.


Anyway, I'm not here defending the current state, and this thread is not about kidneys. It was an analogy that I used that you don't agree with, but regardless this tangent is quite off topic by now.
 
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stealthyeliminator

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Ahh. And I'm under the impression that use of force against another without their consent was the gist of it.

Maybe there have been poor choices of words leading to some confusion. The gist of it is that everyone is equal and any rule or principle that is applicable to one person is applicable to the rest. So, if it's wrong for me to go to you and demand money from you, then so it is wrong for my neighbor to, and their neighbor, and the sum of our authority to do so, all being zero in part, is zero in total.
 

J_dazzle23

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Maybe there have been poor choices of words leading to some confusion. The gist of it is that everyone is equal and any rule or principle that is applicable to one person is applicable to the rest. So, if it's wrong for me to go to you and demand money from you, then so it is wrong for my neighbor to, and their neighbor, and the sum of our authority to do so, all being zero in part, is zero in total.

I can't disagree with that in any way.

I see what you are saying quite a bit different than what has been expressed here previously in the thread.

If I'm wrong about that- I definitely apologize for the wasted time here.
 

HP995

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It sounds naive. While the utopian and race-baced groups are parleying with each other and having fun dealing with the criminal groups, perfect chance for a foreign power to attack.

Between a government with liberals trying to run it, and anarchy with liberals trying to run it, and abortion on demand either way, I'll take the current system!

Both will eventually fail if they are under liberal control, but in the current system it's easier to work for change.
 

marshaul

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I don't think this makes as much sense as you think. I mean, are you saying we shouldn't prohibit something unless the crime would leave a living victim capable of claiming recompense? That'd certainly be silly.

Obviously, the mere fact of not leaving a victim capable of claiming recompense does not mitigate aggression, if aggression in fact occurs. That goes without saying, really, and is so completely obvious and tangential to the point to be a distraction.

I was fairly clear on my actual point, I should think. As I said, this observation holds little (if any) weight in and of itself regarding the morality of abortion. It merely speaks to the value of coercion: that the best example the pro-coercion side has advanced in defense of the need for initiatory coercion is abortion, which is not readily improved by coercive/prohibitive approaches at all, even once you accept that abortion is wrong.

Did I spell that out clearly enough for you?

I'm also unsure what you mean that "an aborted fetus leaves no trace that it ever existed"... What do you think happens, it magically disappears? (edit: As well as all impressions it had made on the souls of anyone that knew of it previously?)

Obviously, I was referring merely to the fact that, as a legal practicality, it is unlikely that victims of abortion will ever see "justice", since there is no legal record of their having existed. My explicit reference to "recording every act of sex" makes this painfully, elaborately clear, such that any 12 year old – much less someone of your immense intellect – will immediately get it. To put it another way, you're clearly nitpicking, and it isn't interesting for either of us.
 
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marshaul

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First of all, "we" don't all agree that murder is abhorrent. Not on any level, really. Some here in this part of the world might consider a death penalty murder. Some other societies in other parts of the world may have even more widespread use of death penalties, for crimes which most over here in this part of the world would not consider justification for it, even if they believed that such punishment would be justified in other cases. In other cases, we see multitudes of people flock to defend LEOs who most on this board would agree have committed murder. I'm not saying common law is illegitimate, I'm only saying that it isn't as simple a case as "well, we all agree on it"

It really is that simple, if you throw in the fact that, as a social species, humans have certain predilections (empathy to members of one's "tribe") which influence the commonality of certain moral tenets (such as murder being wrong). Humans are imperfect dispensers of justice, to be sure, but a jury really does operate quite simply on consensus.

If you're hinting at an appeal to the divine, I'm not interested.

If you don't believe that a common law conviction for murder happens because of a belief that murder is wrong, held sufficiently universally that any randomly empaneled jury is certain to share it, then I can't help you.

You know, this is why you have to be careful using pragmatic arguments in defense of rights. It's all good until someone forgets that moral considerations take primacy.

Agreed, which is why I didn't do that. See my previous post.
 
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marshaul

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I hardly think that asking tough questions, though some of these don't even seem that tough, instantaneously discredits a notion.

No, but you might try at least answering the tough questions. :)

But in this case, you miss the point again. As I said (you didn't quote me completely), my problem is that the proposed positive right lacks consistency and universality. The questions are rhetorical and designed merely to illustrate that point.

A right is something all humans share equally. Indeed, if there were a positive right to food, every person would be granted food equally.

But not all children have living parents. These children clearly cannot have a "right" to parental care, unless they have as well a right to force that care from someone who might have chosen to never even have children.

If some children do not have this right, then no child has this right, since rights are universal.

Now, the dead parents issue might not be convincing, since rights can exist and simply be infringed upon. So, you might say that dead parents are simply an "infringement" on the right. In that case, I'm certain that, somewhere in the other questions I asked, there is at least one child who cannot have a right to compel parenting from his parents. Ergo, no child has this right.

Right is not the correct term for anything which is called a "positive right", IMO.
 

Citizen

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Ok, makes sense I suppose.

So, let's have an exercise. By what experiment may I observe my RKBA? Edit: wait, let's back up. By what experiment may I observe my right to life?

You wouldn't observe a right to life--its not observeable. But, you could observe a few things, draw some conclusions from those observations, and then assert a right to remain alive. And, empathize that others will have the same or similar attitude, and extend to them the same right, and expect the same courtesy back. Etc.

This is the classic "I think, therefore I am." This is just another way of saying I can perceive myself aka I am self-aware aka I can observe myself.

I can observe a rock with my eyes. Or, my fingers. Or, my toe. Or, my ear (silence from rock.) An observation is an observation. To observe something is to observe it, different from evaluating it, drawing conclusions about it, etc. It is just observation: how fast is it going, what color is it, what temperature, how heavy, what flavor, how smooth, etc. etc etc.

The only reason I distinguish observation in these last couple posts to make a distinction between a conclusion derived from an observation and adopting an idea that was not based on a direct personal observation.
 

utbagpiper

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...that the best example the pro-coercion side has advanced in defense of the need for initiatory coercion is abortion, which is not readily improved by coercive/prohibitive approaches at all, even once you accept that abortion is wrong.

1-Since when is defense of an innocent third party "initiatory coercion"? You've used the wrong term and biased your argument. Bad form.


2-By what objective metric do you claim that the rights of unborn children are not readily improved by laws prohibiting elective abortion?

Living close to a legal abortion clinic doubles the odds of a woman choosing to initiate violence against her unborn child. Requiring a woman to make two trips to the abortion clinic reduces the rate of initiatory violence against unborn children by 15%. There is strong evidence that laws limiting or banning elective abortion dramatically reduce the incidence of mothers initiating violence against their unborn children.

It also appears that the legality or illegality of mothers initiating violence against their own unborn babies has little effect on the health of the mother.

See this website for details.

You've asserted a couple of times that outlawing the initiation of force by mothers against their own unborn children doesn't improve the situation. But I've not seen you offer any objective metrics. Certainly you have more than mere emphatic assertion on this point?

By what objective metric do you make your assertion?

Charles
 
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utbagpiper

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The only reason I distinguish observation in these last couple posts to make a distinction between a conclusion derived from an observation and adopting an idea that was not based on a direct personal observation.

What role do you allow for feelings, impressions, or other non-five-senses observations?

What makes the 5 sense more reliable than extra-sensory observations? Countless optical illusions, along with the well known and documented error rate of eye-witness testimony in court demonstrate how unreliable observations from the physical senses are.

So even ignoring extra-sensory experiences, what is the prudence of basing any belief system too much on observations from very fallible senses?

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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But not all children have living parents. These children clearly cannot have a "right" to parental care, unless they have as well a right to force that care from someone who might have chosen to never even have children.

Perhaps a child does have such a right. Or at least perhaps society has recognized that a child does have a right to some level of support until he can care for himself.

Yes, recognition of positive rights does lead to some slippery slope problems.

Yet the right to counsel and to compel witnesses as well as to compel jury service are essential to protecting the rights of the accused. Some will argue this is different because such rights only come into play if the state chooses to prosecute rather than leave a man in peace. Yet, failure to prosecute crimes leaves all of society's rights at practical risk.

If protecting negative rights requires providing positive rights to some, in some cases, perhaps that is true in some other cases.

A child has a right to life...at least once he is born. Yet for the first several years he is wholly incapable of sustaining life if all society does is leave him alone. Left utterly alone, a baby surely dies within a few days. So can a society meaningfully protect a child's right to life, without providing some level of life sustaining support? Without such support, the "right to life" of an infant is nothing but hollow theory.

If some children do not have this right, then no child has this right, since rights are universal.

But if all children do have a right to some level of support, the question changes a bit.

Or looked at another way, perhaps a child does have a right to compel HIS parents to provide some level of support, similar to how a creditor has a right to be repaid by his debtor. That some debtors die without sufficient assets to pay their bills doesn't mean the rights of the creditor do not exist, it simply means he has been denied those rights and there is no way for him to reclaim his property. Similarly if a debtor is still alive but is unable or unwilling to make his payments and has no assets (ie "judgement proof"). The creditor, all creditors, retain their rights. In some cases, those rights cannot be exercised/enforced or they are infringed.

In this view, a child has a right to certain things from his parents. That some children are unable to exercise/enforce those rights against living or deceased parents doesn't diminish the rights of other children.

And perhaps all children have a right to life, and thus--in the absence of parents who can fulfill their responsibilities--a right to some minimum level of support from any society that claims to respect and protect that right to life.

Yes, this poses some troubling conundrums for conservatives, libertarians, and anarchists alike who rely on pure rights theory to oppose all forms of mandatory welfare.

And at the practical level, perhaps private charity is a better way to provide the needed support. But in the absence of sufficient private charity, does the child's right to life translate into a right to a claim on some of my and your property for a minimum level of support? Or do we have the right to withhold our surplus even if doing so means the certain death of a child who cannot hope to provide for his own support?

I do not claim to have any easy answers here. But any sense of moral compass suggest that maybe even rights theory must make some accommodation for the care of infants in any society that claims the right to life is fundamental and universal.

Of course, if no one has a right to life....

Charles
 
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OC for ME

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I am fascinated by people that find fault wherever they look, list and/or rant about the negativity within our government, yet do not have a viable plan that they promote for a better system.

Sure there are things that need to be corrected, but not IMO to the point of putting the whole house to the torch.

We are getting too off topic here and need to return to the subject of the OP.
Please bear with me. This may be my feeble attempt to nudge the conversation back OT. So, I'll go way back to your first post Grape.

"Royal you/your" used below.

It will take some time and thought, but start crossing off the list provided at the below link, every unnecessary (in your view) department in the federal government.

You may be surprised at how less "interventionist" the feds become when their girth is trimmed dramatically. Their "new found respect" for your rights may not be anything more complicated than they no longer have the ability to intervene in your affairs. The result will be that you must be a wee bit more careful when you approach your fellow citizen in voluntary interactions. When the feds are no longer there to be called upon, by you, to coerce your fellow citizen to concede to your desires, you are now in a position of having to back up your desires with your own gumption.

http://www.usa.gov/directory/federal/
 

sudden valley gunner

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The black market is not from people selling their kidneys under the table, it's from people stealing kidneys and selling them under the table.

Being illegal is typically not going to be someone's first deterrent in giving up a kidney, imo.


Anyway, I'm not here defending the current state, and this thread is not about kidneys. It was an analogy that I used that you don't agree with, but regardless this tangent is quite off topic by now.

It was an analogy of a state problem compared to another state problem.

The state makes the problem worse, by not allowing people to sell their kidneys.

The topic is individual rights vs government intervention.....you have no right to make kidney selling illegal.

Still waiting for you to answer how they are going to enforce beliefs without their state?
 
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