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I've decided to vote for Romney!.......IF

Beretta92FSLady

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Dec 14, 2009
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and other peoples money.....that you didnt earn and dont deserve.

No person deserves a damn thing, including individuals who purport to have Earned.

Entitlement is Entitlement.

Back to Romney's glorious campaign for President:

[snippers]
This is probably about the last week, for instance, in which Mitt Romney can reasonably hope that President Obama’s numbers will deteriorate organically because of a convention bounce. That is not to say that Mr. Obama’s standing could not decline later on in the race, for any number of reasons. But if they do, it will probably need to be forced by Mr. Romney’s campaign, or by developments in the news cycle, not the mere loss of post-convention momentum.
We’ll also be looking to see if there is a greater consensus in the polls this week. In general, last week’s numbers started out a bit underwhelming for Mr. Obama — suggesting that the momentum from his convention was eroding — but then picked up strength as the week wore on.
Still, there were splits among the tracking polls and among other national surveys; between state polls that called cellphones and those which did not; and among pollsters who came to a wide variety of conclusions about whose supporters were more enthusiastic and more likely to turn out.
But before we get lost in the weeds, let’s consider a more basic question. What did the polling look like at this stage in past elections, and how did it compare against the actual results?
Our polling database contains surveys going back to 1936. The data is quite thin (essentially just the Gallup national poll and nothing else) through about 1968, but it’s nevertheless worth a look.
In the table below, I’ve averaged the polls that were conducted 40 to 50 days before the election in each year — the time period that we find ourselves in now. (In years when there were no polls in this precise time window, I used the nearest available survey.)
The table considers the race from the standpoint of the incumbent party (designated with the color purple) and the challenging party (wearing the orange jerseys), without worrying about whether they were Democrats or Republicans. Mr. Obama’s position, for instance, is probably more analogous to that of the Republican incumbent George W. Bush in 2004 than it is to the candidate from his own party that year, John Kerry.
oview1-blog480.png

This is an awful lot of data, but there are several reasonably clear themes.
First, the polling by this time in the cycle has been reasonably good, especially when it comes to calling the winners and losers in the race. Of the 19 candidates who led in the polls at this stage since 1936, 18 won the popular vote (Thomas E. Dewey in 1948 is the exception), and 17 won the Electoral College (Al Gore lost it in 2000, along with Mr. Dewey).
Of course, if Mr. Obama led in the race by 30 percentage points — as Lyndon B. Johnson did in 1964 — there wouldn’t be much need for such detailed analysis, and FiveThirtyEight might be free to blog about the baseball playoffs.
If you eliminate the candidates with double-digit leads, the front-runner’s record is eight Electoral College wins in 10 tries, or a batting average of 80 percent.
This a simple method — to the point of being crude. But it’s interesting, nevertheless, that the 80 percent figure corresponds quite well with the FiveThirtyEight forecast, which gave Mr. Obama a 78 percent chance of winning as of Sunday night, and with the odds on offer by bookmakers, many of whom list Mr. Obama as about a 4-to-1 favorite.
The second theme is one that we’ve brought up before. There has not been any tendency, at least at this stage of the race, for the contest to break toward the challenging candidate.
Instead, it’s actually the incumbent-party candidate who has gained ground on average since 1936. On average, the incumbent candidate added 4.6 percentage points between the late September polls and his actual Election Day result, whereas the challenger gained 2.5 percentage points.
You can slice the data in slightly different ways if you like: by looking at only true incumbent presidents, for instance, as opposed to those who represented the incumbent party after the sitting president retired — or furthermore, you can restrict the sample to elected incumbents, which would exclude cases like Gerald R. Ford in 1976. But it gets you to more or less the same answer.
oview2-blog480.jpg

It is also important to observe, however, that the challenging party’s candidate has gained more ground than the incumbent in each of the past four election cycles (from 1996 through 2008). Statistically speaking, this streak does not tell us all that much (the incumbent party closed well in each year from 1988 through 1992). But perhaps this reflects the fact that the conventions are being held later and later, meaning that the incumbent-party candidate, who holds his convention last, could still be in the midst of a modest convention bounce at this stage of the race. For that reason, I think we’ll need to wait until at least the end of the week to see if Mr. Obama’s numbers hold.
But the point is not to argue for the idea that Mr. Obama is likely to gain ground so much as against the notion that Mr. Romney will necessarily have a tail wind. In 14 of the 19 elections since 1936, both the incumbent and the challenger added at least some points to their standing relative to each candidate’s late September polls.
A corollary to this is that the incumbent (or the challenger, for that matter) does not need to be at 50 percent of the vote to be a clear favorite to win: the eventual winner will probably pick up at least some undecided voters, and at least a few votes will go to third-party candidates. Mr. Obama’s current number in the polls — about 48 or 49 percent on average in national surveys — is very similar to those of George W. Bush in 2004, George H.W. Bush in 1988, and Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1944, all of whom won, some of them easily.
oview4-blog480.jpg

oview5-blog480.jpg

Harry S. Truman won the 1948 election despite being at just 39 percent at this point in the polls. His opponent, Mr. Dewey, achieved the highest standing in the late September polls (47 percent) of any candidate (incumbent or challenger) who failed to win the election, although John F. Kennedy came quite close to losing in 1960 despite being at 49 percent in the Gallup poll in September.
To the extent there’s a useful rule of thumb about a candidate achieving 50 percent in the polls, it is this: a candidate who reaches 50 percent of the vote late in the race is almost certain to win. Below that threshold, there are fewer guarantees. But a candidate (incumbent or challenger) at 48 or 49 percent of the vote will normally be a clear favorite.
Nonetheless, another theme: although Mr. Obama’s raw vote share looks reasonably strong, Mr. Obama’s margin over Mr. Romney is not that impressive for an elected incumbent. On average, elected incumbents have led by 7.7 percentage points that this stage of the race — larger than Mr. Obama’s advantage, which is in the range of four points instead.
However, this also helps to explain why Mr. Obama is leading in the race despite a mediocre economy. If an elected incumbent wins by a margin in the high single digits in an the average year, that gives him quite a bit of slack if conditions are below-average, but not terrible. The economy is bad, but perhaps not quite bad enough to oust an elected incumbent who otherwise has a fair number of advantages.
The next point is that large changes can occur late in the race, or at least large errors in the polling. There were four years (1936, 1948, 1968 and 1972) in which the actual election result diverged by at least 10 points from the late September polls, and several other years (like 1980) when there was a shift in the mid-to-high single digits. Of these years, only 1948 reversed the winner — but there were also a lot of close calls, like a near-comeback by Hubert H. Humphrey in 1968, who went from 15 points down to losing to Richard M. Nixon by less than a full percentage point.
A general rule in statistical analysis is that close calls really ought to count, at least for partial credit. Several election years — certainly 1960, 1968 and 2000, and arguably 1976 and 2004 — were close enough that their results could have been altered by essentially random factors.
But these late changes in the polls seem to be becoming less frequent. Since 1972, the average change between the late September polls and the election result is 4.9 percentage points in one direction or another, versus an average error of 7.1 percentage points between 1936 and 1968. And the shifts have been smaller still, 3.7 percentage points on average, in the five elections since 1992.
Does this reflect improved (or at least more abundant) polling, changing behavior in the electorate, or both? Presumably a little of both. Gallup, for instance, had Mr. Dewey defeating Mr. Truman in 1948, but if there had been a dozen pollsters in the field back then, would they all have shown that same result? (Consider that, until Sunday, Gallup’s national tracking poll showed a tied race — whereas virtually every other state and national pollster has produced numbers consistent with Mr. Obama holding at least a small lead.)
But there should also be little doubt that Americans are tuning into the presidential race earlier, and that they are becoming more partisan, two trends that lock them into their candidate choices sooner and reduce late-stage volatility. And an increasing number of Americans are taking advantage of early voting — which is already under way in some states — meaning that they cast their ballot sooner in an entirely literal sense.
Next, and related, there are few undecided voters this year. On average among national polls, about 7 percent of voters either say they are undecided, or that they will vote for a third-party candidate — the same percentage as in 2004, when voters committed early to Mr. Bush or Mr. Kerry. The figures are slightly lower than at a comparable point in 2008, and considerably lower than in 2000.
By the way, I am intentionally lumping undecided voters and potential votes for third-party candidates together. Some voters who are not thrilled with the major-party choices may name a third-party candidate when a pollster gives them the option, but then grudgingly vote Democrat or Republican for fear of wasting their votes otherwise. For this reason, polls generally overstate the standing of third-party candidates, and for forecasting purposes it may be proper to treat ostensible third-party voters as de facto undecideds.
The exception is when a third-party candidate is potentially more viable, like H. Ross Perot in 1992. But just as a greater number of undecided voters contributes volatility to the outcome, so does the presence of strong third-party choices. In those years, there are three vectors along which votes can move — between the Democrat and the independent, the Democrat and the Republican, and the independent and the Republican — as opposed to just one. Many of the years associated with the largest late-stage errors in the polling, like 1968 and 1980, were also associated with third-party candidates.
oview3-blog480.jpg

Thus, although a shift of several percentage points in Mr. Romney’s favor is far from impossible, or even all that unlikely, this also looks like a year in which volatility in the polls might be lower than average. Third-party candidates are playing only a minor role this year, there are few undecideds and the late-stage movement in the polls has been on a secular downward trend over the past two decades.
Furthermore, there tends to be less movement in the polls in reasonably close elections than in blowouts, when the trailing candidate can sometimes receive a dead-cat bounce, or when the front-runner’s advantage grows from large to larger if the trailing candidate’s supporters are too despondent to turn out, as may have been the case for Walter Mondale’s Democrats in 1984.
And indeed, volatility has been low throughout the campaign. Just as in the stock market, past volatility seems to predict future volatility in the polls.
So this is why, despite the importance of the big picture, we will also need to sweat the small stuff this week. It seems plausible that by seven days from now, the consensus of data could point toward anything from Mr. Obama being a two-point favorite (about where the race was before the conventions) to being as much as six points ahead (as some of his stronger state polls seem to imply). Likewise, he could be at anywhere from about 47 percent of the vote (if his numbers recede from a convention bounce) to 50 percent (if his bounce holds and he inches forward as undecided voters commit.)
This makes an enormous amount of difference. Based on the way that our forecast model calculates it, a candidate ahead by two percentage points at this stage would be about a two-to-one favorite to win — odds that Mr. Romney might have to accept at this stage, improving his position enough to make further gains later. But a candidate ahead by six points would have around a 90 percent chance of victory.
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytime...tatistical-state-of-the-presidential-race/?hp

If Romney's plan was and is to run as the Underdog, well, he is running as one. It didn't pan-out well for McCain in 2008; Paul contributed less than Palin; Clinton contributed more than President Obama, although, the President is reaping the rewards.

I am calling the game, right now: President Obama will win early--as he did in 2008; he will win by 7+ million votes, more than George W.'s so-called mandate of 2004 where he won by a poultry 3 million votes.--I suppose that would make President Obama's win a Super--Duper--Mandate. I look forward to his second term, and watching the Republican ship sink even further than it has, as they lay intrenched politically.
 
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Citizen

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Hey folks,

Beretta92 has a long track record of contradicting herself, arguing in circles, and tossing off shallow riposts when backed into a corner. Argue with her if you want. Just understand that you are wasting your time with her. About all she is good for is to practice your rhetorical skills.
 
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Beretta92FSLady

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Joined
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Messages
5,264
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Hey folks,

Beretta92 has a long track record of contradicting herself, arguing in circles, and tossing off shallow riposts when backed into a corner. Argue with her if you want. Just understand that you are wasting your time with her. About all she is good for is to practice your rhetorical skills.

Yes, they are wasting their time.--I have never claimed to not be a walking contradiction.

I bet it just eats you up that President Obama is going to retain Office. Republicans, and their supporters only have themselves to blame, period.

I have been reading response after response these past three years about how terrible President Obama is, and now we have it, rubber meeting the road, and Republicans put-up Romney, the Mormon, RINO, Socialized Medicine man, Corporations Are People Too man, pro-Choice, Pro-Gay marriage, Pro-Reasonable Gun Restriction candidate.--it doesn't get any better than this.

And I am accused of having no Convictions, LOL. Enjoy your trench, Republicans.
 
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Jack House

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I still think we need to tax the piss out of the poor~~maybe then they could see how insane the current path is.
Absolutely, go right on ahead. Deliver the country into the hands of the staunch liberals. Right or wrong, someone making a million dollars a year can easily afford a 50% tax rate, someone trying to survive off $15,000-$20,000 will die under strict taxing conditions.

By "taxing the piss out of the poor," all you're going to do is entrench their hatred of the rich and GOP, you will utterly destroy the GOP's chances of surviving into the new generation of voters. After all, it's the younger generations that suffer the most under this poor economy.

So go ahead, I'd love to see the death of the GOP. And when the GOP falls, maybe then the Democraps wont be far behind. :monkey
 

Citizen

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Messages
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Yes, they are wasting their time.--I have never claimed to not be a walking contradiction.

I bet it just eats you up that President Obama is going to retain Office. Republicans, and their supporters only have themselves to blame, period.

I have been reading response after response these past three years about how terrible President Obama is, and now we have it, rubber meeting the road, and Republicans put-up Romney, the Mormon, RINO, Socialized Medicine man, Corporations Are People Too man, pro-Choice, Pro-Gay marriage, Pro-Reasonable Gun Restriction candidate.--it doesn't get any better than this.

And I am accused of having no Convictions, LOL. Enjoy your trench, Republicans.


Don't fall for it, guys. She long ago fell into the political trap of buying into the divisive rhetoric. She hates Republicrats. There are others who hate the Democans. The trap is in buying into the divisive rhetoric spewed by both parties, setting American against American. Meanwhile, they stay at the top as the governing class.
 
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twoskinsonemanns

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WV
I get it, you make more money than the vast majority of the population will ever be in a position to make.--with that comes a greater social obligation, IMO, of course.

Your ignoring my question was not subtle. You assumption that a $500 increase in my 401K over six months means I make more money than the vast majority is more that assumptive, it's ignorant.

Your assertion than social need justifies a claim on what I've earned is repugnant.
 
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twoskinsonemanns

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Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
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Hey folks,

Beretta92 has a long track record of contradicting herself, arguing in circles, and tossing off shallow riposts when backed into a corner. Argue with her if you want. Just understand that you are wasting your time with her. About all she is good for is to practice your rhetorical skills.

It's been good for me. You learn about things like Collectivism but it's never been tangible. It's always been like one of those theoretical monsters in the closet. You believe it's possible and real, but you don't know it to be so. Like NAMBLA. :lol: I've heard of it. Heard it explained. And theoretically know it's real but still can't believe it exist. And have never conversed with someone who believes in it.

To actually see a human being express a real intentional desire to destroy excellence, in order force total, depressing, stagnant, equality... well it's an eye-opener and vulcanizing.
 

Jay Jacobs

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Canton, GA
You are one of a lucky few if in fact you make 6-figures.
I am lucky in some regards, although I've also worked very long and hard to get in my position.
Something many (not all) less well off aren't willing to do.

Now, are you intentionally ignoring my question?

"And after confiscating everything the rich have, since most the "poor" are still going to be poor, whose wealth do you intend to confiscate for redistribution next, yours?"
 

WalkingWolf

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Joined
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Messages
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North Carolina
Absolutely, go right on ahead. Deliver the country into the hands of the staunch liberals. Right or wrong, someone making a million dollars a year can easily afford a 50% tax rate, someone trying to survive off $15,000-$20,000 will die under strict taxing conditions.

By "taxing the piss out of the poor," all you're going to do is entrench their hatred of the rich and GOP, you will utterly destroy the GOP's chances of surviving into the new generation of voters. After all, it's the younger generations that suffer the most under this poor economy.

So go ahead, I'd love to see the death of the GOP. And when the GOP falls, maybe then the Democraps wont be far behind. :monkey
Like letting them not pay taxes has created love for the rich by the poor. Remember OWS, where a bunch of freeloaders LIVED in a park payed for and maintained by the rich expressed their hate.
 

Jack House

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Like letting them not pay taxes has created love for the rich by the poor. Remember OWS, where a bunch of freeloaders LIVED in a park payed for and maintained by the rich expressed their hate.
You can't pay taxes on money you don't make. If you do have a job, you still pay taxes. Doesn't matter how poor you are. The difference is that the amount of taxes a poor person pays has a much greater and far more negative impact on their ability to survive.

But my post isn't about what people should or should not pay in taxes. It's about how your idea of penalizing the poor for being poor and rewarding the rich for being rich will completely disenfranchise a massive portion of the country, utterly destroying the GOP in the process.
 

WalkingWolf

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North Carolina
You can't pay taxes on money you don't make. If you do have a job, you still pay taxes. Doesn't matter how poor you are. The difference is that the amount of taxes a poor person pays has a much greater and far more negative impact on their ability to survive.

But my post isn't about what people should or should not pay in taxes. It's about how your idea of penalizing the poor for being poor and rewarding the rich for being rich will completely disenfranchise a massive portion of the country, utterly destroying the GOP in the process.
The poor do not support the GOP, the more entitled they become the more they move left. Income does not have to be increased to tax the piss out of them, just print more money. The gov coffers have more money and is paid for by inflation, it is called inflation tax.

Print more money, ergo tax the piss out of the poor.
 

Jack House

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Do you honestly believe the dribble coming out of your mouth like a mindless GOP zombie, or do you just like trolling? :rolleyes:
 

OC for ME

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You can't pay taxes on money you don't make. If you do have a job, you still pay taxes. Doesn't matter how poor you are. The difference is that the amount of taxes a poor person pays has a much greater and far more negative impact on their ability to survive.

But my post isn't about what people should or should not pay in taxes. It's about how your idea of penalizing the poor for being poor and rewarding the rich for being rich will completely disenfranchise a massive portion of the country, utterly destroying the GOP in the process.
Keep on believing that.

Until the government takes control over every business (all state run) then it will always be a "have" that hires a "have not." Just cuz some folks don't like most of the "haves" does not mean that a "have not" will not cash the paycheck the "have" gave him.

Everybody gets paid by a "have".....if they are willing to work that is. Sadly a great subset of our citizenry are not inclined to work so their "paycheck" comes from the "have" of last resort. The "have" that takes from the "rich" and giveth to the poor.
 

Beretta92FSLady

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Your ignoring my question was not subtle. You assumption that a $500 increase in my 401K over six months means I make more money than the vast majority is more that assumptive, it's ignorant.

Your assertion than social need justifies a claim on what I've earned is repugnant.

Sorry, I misread your post. I had a six-figure comment in my mind when I reade the "$500" reference.

I stand by what I stated: The more money you make, the greater your financial obligation to society.
 
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Beretta92FSLady

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And after confiscating everything the rich have, since most the "poor" are still going to be poor, whose wealth do you intend to confiscate for redistribution next, yours?
[snippers]

I reject the premise that it is a Confiscation. In answer to your question: The wealthy have a greater financial obligation to society than the poor.--because the wealthy has the money.
 

Beretta92FSLady

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Joined
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Messages
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Keep on believing that.

Until the government takes control over every business (all state run) then it will always be a "have" that hires a "have not." Just cuz some folks don't like most of the "haves" does not mean that a "have not" will not cash the paycheck the "have" gave him.

Everybody gets paid by a "have".....if they are willing to work that is. Sadly a great subset of our citizenry are not inclined to work so their "paycheck" comes from the "have" of last resort. The "have" that takes from the "rich" and giveth to the poor.

I have missed your fear-mongering nonsense of Government taking control of business.
 
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