LEO gave me a ticket...

[TechnoWeenie]

I've been lurking for awhile but had to chime in. I haven't read every page of this thread but I have read quite a bit, including the news articles. If he was, as the witnesses state, putting his hand on his gun giving people the stink eye I'd probably find him guilty as well. Why hasn't this been brought up? Maybe it has and I didn't read it.

Scott

I've been accused of 'putting my hand on my gun', when merely resting my elbow/arm on it, in a standard defensive posture.

People see what they want to see.

Like that ^%^( in the fake karate dojo or whatever the hell you call it next door.

He wanted to play Sensei/Ninja warrior/Savior/whatever and say this evil person had a gun.

Nice to see lurkers finally join.

IP logs rock!

:lol:

 

[Tawnos]

I've been lurking for awhile but had to chime in. I haven't read every page of this thread but I have read quite a bit, including the news articles. If he was, as the witnesses state, putting his hand on his gun giving people the stink eye I'd probably find him guilty as well. Why hasn't this been brought up? Maybe it has and I didn't read it.

Scott

You're confusing this case with the Kirby case. Eyewitness testimony is, at best, unreliable. At worst, it's made up whole cloth by expectations rather than reality.

 

[papa bear]

from what i read of 9.41.270, you can not open carry in Washington state without being in direct violation of this law. what allows Washington citizens to OC?

 

[Vitaeus]

" in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."

you have to meet ALL these criteria, carrying a firearm in a holster does not manifest an "intent" to intimidate" and it also does not warrant alarm for others. I am having trouble finding the case that basically says that a holstered pistol is not RAS or PC by itself, but it has been cited before. I have personally stood and chatted with the Port Orchard Chief of Police after bringing nearly a dozen open-carriers and having a table set up at the last "National Night Out" in August. I still haven't found a written decision on this case, so we don't have all the facts from the incident. This also means that it likely will not be a published decision and therefore not a "precedent" for other judicial decisions, but I am not a lawyer.

 

[Tawnos]

from what i read of 9.41.270, you can not open carry in Washington state without being in direct violation of this law. what allows Washington citizens to OC?

How do you figure? "Warrants" alarm is different than "causes", and carrying a pistol in a holster is not carrying in a manner that warrants alarm for the safety of others. Nor is carrying daily under circumstances that warrants alarm.

 

[Trigger Dr]

How do you figure? "Warrants" alarm is different than "causes", and carrying a pistol in a holster is not carrying in a manner that warrants alarm for the safety of others. Nor is carrying daily under circumstances that warrants alarm.

Well, if you are afraid of green golf balls, that would be CAUSING alarm, but, as it is an unreasonable fear with nothing to indicate intimidation, threats,or overt acts, it is not Warranting alarm.

 

[skeith5]

You're confusing this case with the Kirby case. Eyewitness testimony is, at best, unreliable. At worst, it's made up whole cloth by expectations rather than reality.

I agree that eyewitness testimony can be unreliable. My father was a LEO and once did a lecture on the issue with a teenage church group. During the lecture someone came in with a "gun", robbed the adults and ran out of the room. When he compiled the witness descriptions the perp was a black or white guy who was somewhere between 5'3 and 6'2 and weighed 150-300 pounds.

I just hadn't seen that statement discussed and was curious as to why. It seems there might be more to the story than we've been told...

 

[skeith5]

You're confusing this case with the Kirby case.

Yes I was... I re-looked at the article and you are correct.

 

[Phssthpok]

Well, if you are afraid of green golf balls, that would be CAUSING alarm, but, as it is an unreasonable fear with nothing to indicate intimidation, threats,or overt acts, it is not Warranting alarm.

And here we have a real world example of BEING alarmed vs. WARRANTING alarm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hn_BjXzLY1k

Obviously this girl was very alarmed....was it 'warranted'?

 

[BigDave]

And here we have a real world example of BEING alarmed vs. WARRANTING alarm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hn_BjXzLY1k

Obviously this girl was very alarmed....was it 'warranted'?

I could not watch the whole video as to the drama queen whining going on and on.

When it comes to this I have heard to described as Real Fear when one can articulate the threat or Bare Fear is when there is no threat.

 

[TechnoWeenie]

from what i read of 9.41.270, you can not open carry in Washington state without being in direct violation of this law. what allows Washington citizens to OC?

What 9.41.270 are you reading?

 

[John Hardin]

I am having trouble finding the case that basically says that a holstered pistol is not RAS or PC by itself

State v. Casad http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/gunstuff/legal/State_v_Casad_(unpublished).pdf

We note that, in connection with this case, several individuals have commented that they would find it strange, maybe shocking, to see a man carrying a gun down the street in broad daylight. Casad’s appellate counsel conceded that she would personally react with shock, but she emphasized that an individual’s lack of comfort with firearms does not equate to reasonable alarm. We agree. It is not unlawful for a person to responsibly walk down the street with a visible firearm, even if this action would shock some people.

 

[amlevin]

from what i read of 9.41.270, you can not open carry in Washington state without being in direct violation of this law. what allows Washington citizens to OC?

Our State Constitution essentially does.

Article 1 Section 24 RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men.

Unlike the Federal Constitution (as amended in the BOR) it specifically provides that the right is an individual right without the need for the SCOTUS to affirm it.
Open carry is the default manner of carry in WA State as it requires a permit to carry concealed.

RCW 9.41.270 is essentially WA's "Brandishing Statute" but carrying a holstered firearm openly doesn't fall in even the broadest definition of brandishing.

 

[devldogs55]

Bump for any new info??

 

[1sgDavo]

bumb

Would really like to know where this is, read it from the start today. Hope he wins in the end.

 

[BigDave]

Would really like to know where this is, read it from the start today. Hope he wins in the end.

The appeals case was denied and you can find more information here http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...-me-a-ticket&p=1825112&viewfull=1#post1825112

The appeal was denied, but that is all the info I have on it except one can receive the decision by mail for;

$1.70

Court of Appeals : Division II - General Information
950 Broadway, Suite 300
Tacoma, WA 98402

And request the recent hearing case number 435551 on 09-10-2012

 

[MKEgal]

Since a couple people already necroposted...

what allows Washington citizens to OC?

You've got it the wrong way 'round.
Laws don't allow, they prohibit.
Unless a law prohibits something, it's legal.
So find a law saying that OC is illegal.

 

[papa bear]

Since a couple people already necroposted...


You've got it the wrong way 'round.
Laws don't allow, they prohibit.
Unless a law prohibits something, it's legal.
So find a law saying that OC is illegal.

kinda my point. he seemed to have been charged with OC. was it obstuction or something else he was convicted of?

 

[1245A Defender]

Well,,,

kinda my point. he seemed to have been charged with OC. was it obstuction or something else he was convicted of?

He was charged with, and convicted of violating RCW 9.41.270.
Ultimately the charge was only upheld because a cop told the folks in the pizza parlor,
that there was a "man with a gun" outside.

 

[amzbrady]

Too bad he couldn't find a good enough lawyer to present the law as the law.