Madison PD detains and cites OCers tonight.

[BJA]

In the recent news colummn on jsonline:



Two wearing guns cited at Madison restaurant
http://www.jsonline.com/newswatch/103242194.html

 

[Motofixxer]

Milwaukee media is very interested in this story and may be at Culvers tonight at 5pm

 

[Shotgun]

Madison Police violated department's policy

From the Madison Police Department Policy Manual which reflects current law:

MADISON POLICE DEPARTMENT POLICY 7-300
Rev. 04/08/2010-07-Final.doc
1. Duration of Stop
A person stopped pursuant to these rules may be detained at or near the scene
of the stop for a reasonable period of time. Officers should detain a person
only for the length of time necessary to obtain or verify the person’s
identification, or an account of the person’s presence or conduct, or an
account of the offense, or otherwise determine if the person should be
arrested or released.
2. Explanation to Detained Person
Officers shall act with courtesy towards the person stopped. At some point
during the stop the officer shall, in every case, give the person stopped an
explanation of the purpose of the stop.
3. Rights of Detained Person
The officer may direct questions to the detained person for the purpose of
obtaining their name, address and an explanation of the conduct. The detained
person may not be compelled to answer questions or to produce identification
documents for examination by the officer; however, the officer may request
the person to produce identification and may demand the production of an
operator’s license if the person has been operating a vehicle.
4. Effect of Refusal to Cooperate
Refusal to answer questions or to produce identification does not by itself
yield probable cause to arrest, but such refusal may be considered along with
other facts as an element adding to probable cause.
5. Effecting a Stop and Detention
Officers shall use the least coercive means necessary under the circumstances
to effect a stop and to detain a person.
6. Use of Force
An officer may use only the amount of non-deadly force that is reasonably
necessary to stop and detain a person pursuant to these guidelines. The
department’s Non-Deadly Force Guidelines shall be followed. If an officer is
attacked, or circumstances exist that create probable cause to arrest, the
officer may use that amount of force necessary for defense or to effect a fullcustody
arrest.

AND THIS IS ALSO IN THE POLICY MANUAL

Basis for a Stop
An officer may stop a person in a public place, after having identified him/herself as a
law enforcement officer, if s/he reasonably suspect that a person has committed, is
committing, or is about to a criminal offense or ordinance violation. Both pedestrians
and persons in vehicles may be stopped.
Reasonable Suspicion
The term “Reasonable Suspicion” is not capable of precise definition; however, it is
more than a hunch or mere speculation on the part of an officer, but less than the
probable cause necessary for an arrest. Every officer conducting a stop must be
prepared to cite the existence of specific facts in support of that officer’s
determination that a “reasonable suspicion” was present.

Discussion: In the audio recording one hears a police officer arguing that the OCers are being detained because the police have "no way of knowing" whether an individual is a felon who cannot have a gun. That statement alone establishes they have no "reasonable suspicion" because he admits they have nothing to go on other than speculation.

 

[Mlutz]

Milwaukee media is very interested in this story and may be at Culvers tonight at 5pm

Culvers again? Hummm... I would have to get on the road like, now...

 

[Shotgun]

Milwaukee media is very interested in this story and may be at Culvers tonight at 5pm

Just got off the phone with Nik and sounds like a Milwaukee TV reporter will be at Culvers @5. I'm planning to be there too. Hope we get a turnout.

 

[rotty]

If I had not spent 3 hrs at the range today and been checking the boards you would have had a Minnesota supporter with you fella's.

^5's to you all for standing your ground !

 

[The Don]

Just got off the phone with Nik and sounds like a Milwaukee TV reporter will be at Culvers @5. I'm planning to be there too. Hope we get a turnout.

I'll be there. Picked up my holster today at the Waukesha gun show and I've got to break it in sometime, right?

 

[johnny amish]

Regarding whether people "caved in" by providing their ID I am of the opinion that it is one thing to say people have the right not to provide ID, but it doesn't follow from this that they have a duty to NOT provide ID. They have a choice whether to provide ID or not provide it. The problem is that the police believed that it wasn't a matter of choice, but rather an obligation. I don't see much benefit from telling people that they have an obligation to NOT provide ID. That is almost as dogmatic as the position that the police took. It is a choice left up to the individual and should be respected not only by the police, but by us as well.

The important thing is that each individual there had his rights violated, both those who provided ID and those who did not.

I listened to the audio last night and it's pretty clear that the police asked each OCer in turn whether they would provide ID, and they stated that any person they were unable to ID would be taken to jail.

I have already stated on this forum that if I am asked for ID by the police I will provide a business card, because that is what the police will provide to you when you ask for THEIR ID. If I am expected to accept a business card as identification, then I expect the same of the police.

+10000

 

[Shotgun]

Was just finished an interviewed by a Wisconsin State Journal reporter. I mentioned we'll be at Culvers tonight, but not sure he's interested in showing up.

 

[Shotgun]

What I found interesting is that the reporter said he can't get anyone at the Police Department to confirm the incident. Sounds like they are clamming up. About 24 hours too late! They should have stayed within the law last night!

 

[Grapeshot]

Looking forward to the FOIA information.

 

[TyGuy]

I can't wait to see how this plays out. Please post any links to news stories, FOIA info, audio recordings, etc....

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[The Don]

Just pulled in. no MPD so far.

 

[range rat]

COMMENTS REMOVED BY MODERATOR: Attacking our own is VERY counter-productive

 

[Nutczak]

COMMENTS REMOVED BY MODERATOR: Attacking our own is VERY counter-productive.

I guess I should quote this before it gets deleted.
BTW, great advice

 

[tcmech]

I would like to extend my sincere appreciation to the five who this thread were about.

 

[.30-06]

Looks like WCCO has picked it up:

http://wcco.com/wireapnewswi/Gun.rights.group.2.1920754.html

 

[SAK]

Good work, guys!

I think you all did a fantastic job - everyone kept their cool and I'm sure conducted themselves in a respectful manner under the circumstances - severe harassment!!!

Clearly this is a case of harassment. There was no reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS) that a crime had, was, or would take place. 8 officers on scene? Are you kidding me?!?! Apparently Madison is crime-free, because that's a lot of officers to send somewhere when there is no suspicion of criminal activity going on. Was anyone threatened verbally or physically? Was anything stolen? Of course not!

POLICE OFFICERS: PLEASE CONDUCT YOURSELVES IN A RESPECTFUL MANNER - YOUR JOB IS TO PROTECT RIGHTS. YOU ARE NOT HITLER'S SS - CUFF AND STUFFING LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE THEIR CHOICE OF LEGAL BEHAVIOR WILL NOT BE TOLERATED!!!!

These officers are familiar with open carry and realize it is legal. They should also be familiar with ID laws - people aren't required to produce it. They should also be familiar with "terry stop" requirements.


This is a political harassment tactic, aimed at making things uncomfortable, embarrassing, and inconvenient for people who want to exercise the right to carry firearms. They are also trying to set precedent - that by exercising the right to carry a firearm a person is subsequently forfeiting a right to be secure in their persons AND privacy by not having to produce ID.

When you are out in public, whether it be with friends, family, or simply by yourself, you should not have to deal with harassment by law enforcement when you aren't doing anything wrong. Eating a Butterburger (tm) is not criminal in any stretch of imagination. Enjoying a shake with friends is a peaceful act. Sharing fresh air and conversation outside without being intimidated and coerced is a most basic freedom.

DO WE HAVE THE NAMES OF THESE OFFICERS YET? I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO KNOW EACH AND EVERY ONE AND THE BEST DESCRIPTIONS POSSIBLE OF THEIR VERBAL LANGUAGE, BODY LANGUAGE, and ACTIONS.


The most important thing I can think of right now is to make sure as much attention as possible is raised to this situation. I am going to do everything I can in this regard. There needs to be a public education campaign. THIS SHOULD BE THE LAST TIME SOMEONE OPENLY CARRYING IS HARASSED IN WISCONSIN.


These officers were thinking: only we should have guns, people with guns have fewer rights than people without guns, the law doesn't really matter - a gun is involved and I'm a highly-respected police officer so I can break the law here, we need to keep reminding these gun owners we can lord over them and keep them down in their place (uppity open carriers), I can get what I want by threatening criminal charges of obstructing, etc

What else were they thinking? Perhaps they weren't thinking enough.


Disclaimer: I'm a little ticked, so I may be reactionary right now. These comments don't reflect ICarry.org - just my personal thoughts at this time.

 

[anmut]

To the Wisconsin Carry leadership - I suggest sending out an email to 550am I'd bet it would get some coverage on the morning show Feedback (9am - 11am).

Pat Synder is the conservative show host. pat.snyder@mwcradio.com

 

[paul@paul-fisher.com]

SAK - The officers were generally 'cool', as cool as you can be while they detain you. Only officer that did most of the talking was the Sergeant. I have all their names on tape, at least the ones close enough to identify. There were a couple standing in the difference but definitely visible. No guns were pulled.

Wisconsin Carry is on top of it and I have no doubt they will do what is necessary.

I am only sorry I couldn't make it back tonight for the follow-up gathering. Sounds like there will be more than last night.