McDonalds Attack - Justification or Not

[ed]

Is "self-defense" defined as stopping an attack on another person.... or just yourself?

Going back to my answer.. as I told the victim of the attack to get in the corner behind me.. Corner = no where else to retreat too.. backs literally against the wall. And now I command the attackers to STAY BACK from ME (no longer the victim)... ME! And after witnessing the damage they can do as a pack, I am now defending MYSELF and the victim absorbs collateral protection. If they advance on ME after ALL warnings (and it would all be on my audio recorder) I would drop the aggressor.

 

[MKEgal]

why would you need to use deadly force to break up a fight between 3 women?

Among.
And isn't that just a wee bit sexist?
Granted, I'm not as strong as a man in my upper body; most women aren't. (Though there are weight machines at the gym I get incredulous looks from guys while using.)
But kicking/stomping someone's head??? That's a good way to do irreperable damage real fast.

And legs are one place where women are often stronger than men. We've got more bone surface in our hips to attach muscles to.
When I was in middle school & my brother was in late high school we leg-wrestled one night. Even with him having the weight & length advantage, I very nearly flipped him. (It was a struggle, but he did flip me.) Since he was having a party, the rest of his guy friends wanted to see how they'd do, & I flipped several of them.

There is no sign of deadly force in the video.

Other than the stomps to the head...

It would just be my luck that if I ever intervened it would be in a McDonalds with a school across the street.

Doesn't matter, unless the McD's is owned by some unit of gov't.
Someone a couple counties south of here got a nice payout from the city after being arrested OCing at a gas station across the street from a school.
It's private property. The "GF"SZ doesn't apply.

As for the law supposedly making it a felony if near a school, look here:

§ 18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm...

A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm... in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another... of being shot or injured.
However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense.
Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.

Has to happen on public property.
McDonald's is not public property.
It's a place of public accommodation, but unless it's owned by a unit of gov't, it's private property.

 

[Blk97F150]

Going back to my answer.. as I told the victim of the attack to get in the corner behind me.. Corner = no where else to retreat too.. backs literally against the wall. And now I command the attackers to STAY BACK from ME (no longer the victim)... ME! And after witnessing the damage they can do as a pack, I am now defending MYSELF and the victim absorbs collateral protection. If they advance on ME after ALL warnings (and it would all be on my audio recorder) I would drop the aggressor.

My comment wasn't referring to your post.... I actually like your position, and tend to agree. Your method provides non-lethal assistance to the perceived victim and puts at least a short pause in the attack, giving the attackers a chance to decide the next move. What happens after that... is up to them.

 

[Grapeshot]

Fascinating how impersonal "what if' scenarios evolve from [strike]not so[/strike] simple questions to personality based replies. Unquestionably good mental exercise, but no right answer - only ones that may be better if everyone were to agree on a finite set of circumstances and remain objective. That happened here once, I think.

Given the extreme short time to make an assessment and react, be right. It will not be your friends who will judge the justification of your actions, but the decidedly difficult "system" that may see things very differently. We do not live in a perfect world - you cannot fit every possibility in the same shaped box.

BTW - while you were mentally wrestling with how far and in what manner to proceed, the victim raised herself up against the wall behind you and .............:uhoh:

To be continued next Saturday. :lol:

 

[peter nap]

Among.
And isn't that just a wee bit sexist?
No, Factual! The Drag Queen is probably more dangerous.

Granted, I'm not as strong as a man in my upper body; most women aren't. (Though there are weight machines at the gym I get incredulous looks from guys while using.)
But kicking/stomping someone's head??? That's a good way to do irreperable damage real fast.

Not necessary. Geese, how many thousand times do people get kicked in the head sparring. It wasn't in any danger of being killed from what I saw. And no, in full contact we didn't wear headgear.

And legs are one place where women are often stronger than men. We've got more bone surface in our hips to attach muscles to.
When I was in middle school & my brother was in late high school we leg-wrestled one night. Even with him having the weight & length advantage, I very nearly flipped him. (It was a struggle, but he did flip me.) Since he was having a party, the rest of his guy friends wanted to see how they'd do, & I flipped several of them.

Possibly,... doubtful,... but at any rate, there is more to a kick than leg muscles. There's as much back as leg in it.

 

[45acpForMe]

Originally Posted by 45acpForMe
It would just be my luck that if I ever intervened it would be in a McDonalds with a school across the street.

Doesn't matter, unless the McD's is owned by some unit of gov't.
Someone a couple counties south of here got a nice payout from the city after being arrested OCing at a gas station across the street from a school.
It's private property. The "GF"SZ doesn't apply.......

That was quoting VA law and my point was that if you draw your gun and are WRONG the brandishing charge elevates from a misdemeanor to felony if you happen to be within that distance from a school. Bye Bye guns as well as any jail time and costs involved defending yourself, as well as butt-virginity! :uhoh: With those added penalties it makes coming to someone elses defense even more perilous and dangerous to your own freedom.

 

[jadedone4]

Don't have a Dog in that Fight...!!

Generally, "what-if's" never turn out well.

Don't have a Dog in that Fight - it was between adults, no matter how immature they may have been acting.

Simple shout/reminder to the assilants "You DO know that you are being taped on SECURITY cameras..." should be enough "involvement" by me (non-participant) to de-escalate matters; but if it isn't, I have no issue being a co-witness to the cameras.

Just wasn't there, don't know what cause the ruckus/fight - to make a determination to get involved "decision" after watching a video.

Seems like most here understand their specific responsibility to get involved (or not to get involved) - and what they would be willing to risk for a stranger.

I carry to protect myself and my family - unless I KNOW the innocent is actually innocent - no Dog in that Fight...!!

 

[Claytron]

Citizen -

You have moved about half-way through the use-of-force continuum, going from physical presence (getting between the two [supposed] assailants and the [supposed] victim, used command voice to order everybody to cease and desist, and gone to soft hands by pushing folks apart/away. Presuming that you do not have OC spray, taser, and a baton on your bat belt you may now be limited to lethal force as your next step up the continuum. (Old, decrepit geezers like me may in fact have our AARP cane with us, giving us that intermediate tool between empty hands and lethal force. Not that I'm suggesting that folks accelerate their physical deterioration just so they can also carry an AARP cane.)

What you have not discussed yet is further separating the [supposed] assailtants and the [supposed] victim by such tactics as getting the manager to lock the [supposed] victim in their office until the police arrive and/or having the exterior doors locked once the [supposed] assailants are moved outside. You also have not indicated that you either called 9-1-1 before intervening or commanded someone else to call 9-1-1 and summon the police and medical assistance, or that you were aware that someone has already called for the police and medical assistance.

The gun is mere hardware. It is the software that decides when/if and how the hardware is used.

Hope you are now even more conflexed and perfused than you were at 3:03 PM.

stay safe.

Why do you refer to them as "supposed"? Because you arent sure if the one being beaten "deserved" it? In what situation does a person deserve to be kicked in the head until they begin having siezures? And you would use "soft hands" to push people away? As a older gentleman who may need a cane, you would be putting yourself between two young adults who had the audacity to gang up on one person and stomp their head in?

 

[peter nap]

Why do you refer to them as "supposed"? Because you arent sure if the one being beaten "deserved" it? In what situation does a person deserve to be kicked in the head until they begin having siezures?

Oh...I can think of dozens of situations. Talking back to your elders is one:lol:

 

[skidmark]

Why do you refer to them as "supposed"? Because you arent sure if the one being beaten "deserved" it? In what situation does a person deserve to be kicked in the head until they begin having siezures? And you would use "soft hands" to push people away? As a older gentleman who may need a cane, you would be putting yourself between two young adults who had the audacity to gang up on one person and stomp their head in?

Because I did not see the start of the incident so do not know for a certainty what role each person is playing.

And yes, as a geezer with a cane I would use soft hands to push people away before I went all Cro-Magnon on them.

But then I tend to play out scenarios in my head even before I find myself in the middle of them. I have "a plan" for a whole lot of stuff that may go down, and I mentally and physically rehearse many of them so that if I need to implement them and/or adjust/adapt one I am on the leading edge of the loop as opposed to the trailing edge.

I also have some education and real-world practical experience in dealing with folks who start whomping on others. Very often physical presence and a command voice will bring a momentary halt, thus allowing me to start increasing the distance of separation between the parties involved and imposing some physical barriers between them.

In other words, there are a multiplicity of ways and means of intervening that do not involve immediate recourse to hard strikes or the use of lethal force. Software, software, software. The gun is but one of a number of tools I carry on a daily basis - and no, I do not wear a bat belt!

stay safe.

 

[ed]

FOX5 DC is doing a story on the incident and the video at 10PM

 

[Grapeshot]

Why do you refer to them as "supposed"? Because you arent sure if the one being beaten "deserved" it? In what situation does a person deserve to be kicked in the head until they begin having siezures? And you would use "soft hands" to push people away? As a older gentleman who may need a cane, you would be putting yourself between two young adults who had the audacity to gang up on one person and stomp their head in?

Perhaps you would prefer the officially sanctioned word "alleged." It is not for us to save who "deserved" what. We are neither judges nor jurors. When that line is crossed and you react out of emotion and poorly prepared reasoning, you are already on the wrong side of the learning curve.

Institute yourself into a situation where you do not have sufficient information, act improperly because of how you feel (hate that word) and let me know how that works out for you ..... and your family.

Yes defense of others is in my book of options, though it is not my primary mandate. Having learned both by my own and the experiences of others, I wonder about those that won't so avail themselves of the same. Your responses here seem unnecessarily brash and challenging. Surely you can't believe that will make you more credible.

 

[NovaCop]

Wow, it it is actually quite scary to think some people actually believe this situation is even close to being a situation to warrant the use of deadly force. I am almost speechless. It might be wise to attend self defense legal classes.

 

[ed]

There's no question that there was a threat of an immediate and serious bodily injury - it doesn't have to be potentially lethal. The differential physical potential between the attacker and the victim may justify the use of deadly force, even in the absence of a weapon.

And, a minor technical point relating to the OP: "justification" is when the use of deadly force is "justified"; i.e., just, right, and proper, such as when an agent of the state (military or police) use deadly force appropriately in the line of duty. When you do it because it's a self-defense / defense of others situation, that's "excusable" homicide.

Wow, it it is actually quite scary to think some people actually believe this situation is even close to being a situation to warrant the use of deadly force. I am almost speechless. It might be wise to attend self defense legal classes.

I am glad "user" is my attorney and not "NovaCop10".

 

[NovaCop]

I am glad "user" is my attorney and not "NovaCop10".

Yeah and you will need an attorney if you brandish a handgun and shoot some people in a crowded restaurant involved in a fight. Glad to see I have job security.

 

[ed]

Yeah and you will need an attorney if you brandish a handgun

§ 18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.

A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony

 

[NovaCop]

Yeah you can legally use force to defend others when it is appropriate. In this situation you have no idea what lead up to this incident. You have two unarmed (what you see at this moment) females "jumping"'another males/female. Where do you see the use of a handgun being necessary Ed?

 

[ed]

Yeah you can legally use force to defend others when it is appropriate. In this situation you have no idea what lead up to this incident. You have two unarmed (what you see at this moment) females "jumping"'another males/female. Where do you see the use of a handgun being necessary Ed?

Welcome to the thread. Just like you think I did.. you jumped in on the last few posts and know it all. I would not just come out guns-a-blazin. From what I observed in the video, from what I know as a former Paramedic in Fairfax County, that person was in TROUBLE. I would be able to articulate that in court if need be. I would have kept my gun holstered and given loud, firm verbal commands. I would have told the victim to get behind me, I would have told the manager to call 911, I would have told the attackers to KEEP BACK or be SHOT. The ball would then be in their court to cease the attack or be shot. For them to be shot, they would have to show aggression now towards ME and I would respond based on what I witnessed they could do.

 

[NovaCop]

Welcome to the thread. Just like you think I did.. you jumped in on the last few posts and know it all. I would not just come out guns-a-blazin. From what I observed in the video, from what I know as a former Paramedic in Fairfax County, that person was in TROUBLE. I would be able to articulate that in court if need be. I would have kept my gun holstered and given loud, firm verbal commands. I would have told the victim to get behind me, I would have told the manager to call 911, I would have told the attackers to KEEP BACK or be SHOT. The ball would then be in their court to cease the attack or be shot. For them to be shot, they would have to show aggression now towards ME and I would respond based on what I witnessed they could do.

And I agree that intervention was necessary anyone can see that (not just former medics). I merely stated that introducing a gun in this situation would be inappropriate ( from what the video shows).

 

[NovaCop]

"keep back or be shot". Ed, you really think interjecting your gun in this situation involving unarmed fighters is wise? You are setting yourself up for criminal and civil liabilities. You already mentionEd articulation in court so I hope you are ready to spend the money and possible loss of freedom to do so.