NVFAC - who is the genious behind this last decision?

[DON`T TREAD ON ME]

Um, they are less than 1.5 years since their start.

That excuse is on page 3 of the Obama excuse book LOL :banana:

 

[DVC]

Um, they are less than 1.5 years since their start.

Figures.

These guys bring up issues, and instead of answers they get a cuckoo clock.

 

[varminter22]

The guy makes a factual statement. NVFAC incorporated about 17 months ago. And you make "Obama playbook" and "cuckoo clock" remarks. Besides being factually incorrect, exactly what does that contribute to the debate?

Like TBG has said, NVFAC has perhaps experienced some 'growing pains.'

One can be a part of the solution or a part of the problem.

Do we not have the common goal of preserving - indeed regaining - our God given rights guaranteed by the U. S. Constitution (2nd Amendment) and the Nevada Constitution (Art 1, Sec 11)??

 

[varminter22]

And, in reference to VP Bob Irwin, in view of more recent poor 'performances' by Mr Irwin (news media quotes and appearance on Ralston Reports), I too am personally on record in favor of his resignation or replacement.

 

[DON`T TREAD ON ME]

Here is the Crux of the real problem, I do not have as big an issue with the NRA or the NVFAC or any other "gun rights alphabet soup" out there "protecting our rights" as you may beleive. Here is the issue. They ALL have shortcomings, you do not use a air brush gun to do the job of a sledge hammer. The NVFAC is a tool... that when used effectively can be productive, however it is not designed to do every job.

That being said the NVFAC/NRA has no appetite for going to the Strip and making the Cops obey the laws Etc. The minuet someone points out this fact, or another that is obvious, the peanut gallery goes off on this forum by a couple of great guys who have chosen to work the legislature, not to go out and risk their butts to get the laws enforced properly.

I agree that legislature is important, but that type of work is not for everyone. All the legislative guys say it takes numbers, well if you truly believe that then why do I not see your numbers out there with Yardsale at the DUI checkpoints up North. If you believe it takes numbers, where were all the volunteers when I sued the NV Sheriffs and Chiefs Assoc. Turns out there are a lot of pieces to a puzzle.

I do not hear anyone that participates in the "activism" part ever put someone down for not being at an event but, they aren't upset about not having numbers.
We show up, have a good time and that is that.

To think that getting a law passed is the end of the story would be a nice world to live in. But if you ever did go to a DUI checkpoint, and pre-read NRS486B.570 you would see that breaking the law is no problem for these cops, pass as many as you can, but someone has to hold them accountable.

AB 31 is a very important issue this session, it has nothing to do with gun rights on the surface, but it is all about the transparency of Government. I have been quietly working on it and I do not expect the NVFAC to show up, there are many more issues than the NVFAC can handle. So let the issues get brought up without trying to dispute they exist or slap them down some other way. How do you know that someone out there does not have a solution to the problem brought up by myself or one of the other forum members, until the defenders come on here an "assure" us it is only because of the young age of the NVFAC, or other reasons it is not being handled.

By refusing to acknowledge the issues we cannot even come close to solving the problems. We are speaking for southern Nevada and the trials we have down here. Getting told we are incorrect from someone miles away geographically, and demographically, hurts our progress. Why do you argue our life experience? Just for example the State of Nevada has "motorcycle rights organizations just like other states, Our most powerful org? ... you guessed it, is from Elko, not Vegas, for some reason the Orgs. have a tough time in this State and I am not hanging my hat on them. That does not mean I wont get involved, I go to the ABATE (motorcycle meeting) every month, but also do not have to defend myself there for bringing up a chink in the armor.

Does anyone remember the AG website, and how it used to proclaim that "while open carry is generally legal in the State of Nevada, Doing so in a large METRO area will result in a confrontation with law enforcement" I remember well, and can think of no law to pass in the legislature to remedy this. It is called Government out of control, No Organization wants to do this kind of work, so don't beat on the people willing to do it!

If someone points out a legislative item that needs work, and I get defensive.....? Feel free to throw this post in my face!

 

[wrightme]

Here is the Crux of the real problem, I do not have as big an issue with the NRA or the NVFAC or any other "gun rights alphabet soup" out there "protecting our rights" as you may beleive. Here is the issue. They ALL have shortcomings, you do not use a air brush gun to do the job of a sledge hammer. The NVFAC is a tool... that when used effectively can be productive, however it is not designed to do every job.

That being said the NVFAC/NRA has no appetite for going to the Strip and making the Cops obey the laws Etc. The minuet someone points out this fact, or another that is obvious, the peanut gallery goes off on this forum by a couple of great guys who have chosen to work the legislature, not to go out and risk their butts to get the laws enforced properly.

I agree that legislature is important, but that type of work is not for everyone. All the legislative guys say it takes numbers, well if you truly believe that then why do I not see your numbers out there with Yardsale at the DUI checkpoints up North. If you believe it takes numbers, where were all the volunteers when I sued the NV Sheriffs and Chiefs Assoc. Turns out there are a lot of pieces to a puzzle.

Yes, it takes numbers, as in 'the abc group speaks for 2,450 gun owners from ....' That IS reality. That has nothing to do with whatever someone does at a dui checkpoint, that is a separate issue.

The NVFAC is more than a simple tool. But, it isn't worth mentioning them or the NRA or the GOA in matters that are not about gun rights or regulations. And, I don't know what you are getting at about the NRA/NVFAC and the strip. I think it is fantastic what you guys down there were able to accomplish with activism.

I do not hear anyone that participates in the "activism" part ever put someone down for not being at an event but, they aren't upset about not having numbers.
We show up, have a good time and that is that.

Actually, vegassteve did just that today about the NVFAC and the Heck get-together, iirc.

To think that getting a law passed is the end of the story would be a nice world to live in.

Then you should be pleased that I do NOT live in that fairy tale land. But, without the legislation, you don't even get that far.

But if you ever did go to a DUI checkpoint, and pre-read NRS486B.570 you would see that breaking the law is no problem for these cops, pass as many as you can, but someone has to hold them accountable.

Yes, I hear you about the DUI checkpoints. And I do not dispute what you say about how the laws are mispresented by le. Those are great efforts. That does NOT make it valid to say 'where is the NRA or NVFAC when...' if it isn't what they typically do, or what they are working on. YOU want to, great, have at it. That doesn't make the other things not worth supporting; nor does it mean what YOU choose will always get supported.
Nothing about a DUI checkpoint has any relevance to gun rights groups, sorry. It is worth battling, but isn't for this venue or groups.

AB 31 is a very important issue this session, it has nothing to do with gun rights on the surface, but it is all about the transparency of Government. I have been quietly working on it and I do not expect the NVFAC to show up, there are many more issues than the NVFAC can handle. So let the issues get brought up without trying to dispute they exist or slap them down some other way. How do you know that someone out there does not have a solution to the problem brought up by myself or one of the other forum members, until the defenders come on here an "assure" us it is only because of the young age of the NVFAC, or other reasons it is not being handled.

Very good, work on it. But, if it isn't about gun rights, placing that effort into a gun rights packet wastes their resources. If AB31 isn't about gun rights, I would not expect the NRA, the GOA, or the NVFAC to spend ANY time on it, except to monitor for poison amendments that drag gun issues into it. Those gun rights groups resources will be NEEDED in this session to counter the anti-gun legislation that WILL be coming in. It is good that you recognize that.

Point to one gun issue that I have claimed 'doesn't exist,' or that 'the NVFAC doesn't have an answer for.' The reality is that they WILL NOT have the resources to handle everything they or you, or I desire; especially if they do not have numbers come time to be in session.

By refusing to acknowledge the issues we cannot even come close to solving the problems. We are speaking for southern Nevada and the trials we have down here. Getting told we are incorrect from someone miles away geographically, and demographically, hurts our progress.

When someone is incorrect, where they are has no relevance.

Why do you argue our life experience? Just for example the State of Nevada has "motorcycle rights organizations just like other states, Our most powerful org? ... you guessed it, is from Elko, not Vegas, for some reason the Orgs. have a tough time in this State and I am not hanging my hat on them. That does not mean I wont get involved, I go to the ABATE (motorcycle meeting) every month, but also do not have to defend myself there for bringing up a chink in the armor.

What? I have no idea what you are even getting at with that.
Motorcycle orgs don't have anything to do with gun org issues, and vice versa.

Does anyone remember the AG website, and how it used to proclaim that "while open carry is generally legal in the State of Nevada, Doing so in a large METRO area will result in a confrontation with law enforcement" I remember well, and can think of no law to pass in the legislature to remedy this. It is called Government out of control, No Organization wants to do this kind of work, so don't beat on the people willing to do it!

I do not recall that specific one, but I do recall the 'CCW FAQ crap' they had for a while. Masto was baffled when I handed her the printouts and my emails from some asshat there about those 'faq's.'
They finally were removed after a few months more. I hope the asshat was removed also.

If someone points out a legislative item that needs work, and I get defensive.....? Feel free to throw this post in my face!

Why? Please keep up your good efforts. I do NOT have any desire to minimize what you accomplish. I just wish you spent less time making claims like that about AB237. It hurts when I was one of the ones actually involved that year, who had first-hand knowledge about what happened. Do I have any meeting notes or such to back up what I say? No. That does not mean that I won't challenge to prove your claims when you present baseless allegations.


Sorry for the length, you put a lot of somewhat related and unrelated parts in that.


But to close, the NVFAC is first and foremost, responsible to the membership of the organization. And, as one of the members, I have known since its beginning that their main goal was to prepare for this legislative session. They were doing that, and not communicating it very well. As you can see from a recent post by one of the board members, even their officer ranks have some dissent. But, if we are to have good representation in the legislative session this year, which is VERY CRITICAL this year, they need numbers. They want to be able to have a paid lobbyist for the session, which would fix the problem we had in 2007 with the amendment to SB237. Their goal/s is/are the same as yours, as far as gun rights in Nevada goes; including 'One gun law for Nevada.' Which is to say, no more rules than we have now, but no special stuff for the pointy end like all the blue cards and registrations and waiting periods. Just for those items, it is worth supporting them through the session, and that is what they have always said they were working towards, was the legislative session.

The other activist activities are good, but that isn't their role, no more than it is the role of the NRA or GOA.

 

[DON`T TREAD ON ME]

Wrightme...

I accept you and your views unconditionally, You are the man!

 

[wrightme]

Wrightme...

I accept you and your views unconditionally, You are the man!

You know what, If you mean that sincerely, I appreciate it.


I have serious reservations about that though. I have no desire whatsoever to continue any such internet debates about it, I really wish the subject could be discussed much more rationally than has been happening. I do wish you could see fit to simply join and support the NVFAC for this legislative session, if for nothing else. We will need ALL the numbers possible when the anti-gun legislation starts hitting the committees.

At least one chair has already promised to allow NO pro-gun bills to pass out of committee. I bet that same chair will attempt to freight-train anti-gun legislation through. That isn't LE misrepresenting statute on the street, that is our representatives getting prepared to try to make Nevada more like New York or California.

That isn't to say that citizens don't need to go in person; but to say that a solid organization with a presence DAILY in the legislature is needed this year like no other year we have yet encountered. My experiences with Horne and Bernie (direct and indirect) give me no doubt that though some of them in there are on our side, the chairs don't care.


Personally, I am a member of the NRA, and I will be letting them know of my views frequently, each time any pro- or anti- gun legislation hits the hill here. The same with the NVFAC.


I know the activism is good, and you guys down there have shown, without question, that it works. Do NOT make any mistake that even more effort needs presented to the lawmaking body this year as is ever presented at the lawenforcing bodies.

 

[The Big Guy]

Individual activism is imperative and can also be used as a tool by the NVFAC to point out to legislators that we are a group to be taken seriously. It is not really possible for all that individual activism to be carried to Cason City which is why we need a cover group, in this case the NVFAC, the only game in town, to carry our purpose to the state. A united front is mandatory if we are going to accomplish our goals for this session. It is unfortunate that our elected officials ignore us as individuals, but they do not as a rule ignore numbers. They operate on fear. They fear numbers. If the other side gets to them in greater numbers, they will win, period.

As Writeme pointed out, at least join the NVFAC for this session. Even with all its flaws, we need a united front in Carson City. You can bet the opposite viewpoint is mobilizing.

TBG

 

[DON`T TREAD ON ME]

I am 100% serious with unconditional acceptance.

To the Big Guy: we have been told they cannot ignore the numbers in the helmet fight as well, every session it is in the top 5 for Pro comments, as well as flooding the committee rooms with motorcyclists. How is it that we have the most (non paid for) comments. the largest in your face constituency, and get ignored. meanwhile 31 other states have achieved adult choice?
I do not think we should not be engaged but I pose this question. How is it that protecting individual liberty's is best accomplished by utilizing collectivism?

Wrightme, I will try to arrange for you to attend a future meeting with the progress now folks if you want.

 

[wrightme]

I am 100% serious with unconditional acceptance.

To the Big Guy: we have been told they cannot ignore the numbers in the helmet fight as well, every session it is in the top 5 for Pro comments, as well as flooding the committee rooms with motorcyclists. How is it that we have the most (non paid for) comments. the largest in your face constituency, and get ignored. meanwhile 31 other states have achieved adult choice?
I do not think we should not be engaged but I pose this question. How is it that protecting individual liberty's is best accomplished by utilizing collectivism?

Wrightme, I will try to arrange for you to attend a future meeting with the progress now folks if you want.

On the numbers: Filling the room is part of it. Having a lobbyist in the room with a view supported by 10,000 members is over the top. And, NONE of it guarantees a good outcome, which does not negate the value. As you found out with the helmet law thing, sometimes it just doesn't go our way.

I have no desire to meet with people who would knowingly post false statements as if 'counterprotestors' have said something they did not say. I see no value in meeting with them. It sounds as useful as a meeting with representatives of the Brady Bunch.

 

[DON`T TREAD ON ME]

On the numbers: Filling the room is part of it. Having a lobbyist in the room with a view supported by 10,000 members is over the top. And, NONE of it guarantees a good outcome, which does not negate the value. As you found out with the helmet law thing, sometimes it just doesn't go our way.

I have no desire to meet with people who would knowingly post false statements as if 'counterprotestors' have said something they did not say. I see no value in meeting with them. It sounds as useful as a meeting with representatives of the Brady Bunch.

The news is responsible for the counter protesters statement if you are referring to the newscast you cited. Not the liberals.

The Left thinks guns are bad, so they lobby for laws to enable govt agents to bust down the doors of anyone in possession.

The right thinks Pot is bad, so they lobby for laws to enable govt. agents to bust down the doors of anyone in possession.

Both sides propagate violence against the other in the name of safety and non violence. Oddly the people who sign up to support this violence on both sides do not believe they are violent people. they think they are truly "bettering" their country, and would never think they are being "USED" by the "power grabbers."

Same goes for immigration, wars, and a host of other issues. If they do pass a magazine capacity bill and you get into an encounter with an officer wanting to know how many rounds your "Clip" holds, you may end up with some appreciation for the ACLU types, should you need exercise your rights that the traditional (police are always right) conservatives have all but forgot about!

We don't agree with them (liberals) all the time, but don't fall for the "polarization" tactics. Us fighting each other is what keeps tyranny in power.

The Brady people might not be friendly towards us, and have not been down the same road as us, but I see no reason to "discount a fellow American for not understanding. It was 2009 that I got woke up to the fourth amendment, Does that make me less of an American? It was not until I understood the fourth that I was able to realize I had been misled on the second amendment. (I thought having a CCW was exercising my rights.)

At the end of the day, Who am I to Judge them. If I can wake up why can't they?

Why is a collective is required to ensure my individual rights?

 

[wrightme]

The news is responsible for the counter protesters statement if you are referring to the newscast you cited. Not the liberals.

The comment referred to, was on the blog site you linked, which IS the 'progress now' site, not the news.
http://nvprogressive.blogspot.com/2013/02/joe-hecks-office-gets-reality-check.html

The Left thinks guns are bad, so they lobby for laws to enable govt agents to bust down the doors of anyone in possession.

The right thinks Pot is bad, so they lobby for laws to enable govt. agents to bust down the doors of anyone in possession.

Partisan broad brush.

Both sides propagate violence against the other in the name of safety and non violence. Oddly the people who sign up to support this violence on both sides do not believe they are violent people. they think they are truly "bettering" their country, and would never think they are being "USED" by the "power grabbers."

I do not agree with this statement.

Same goes for immigration, wars, and a host of other issues. If they do pass a magazine capacity bill and you get into an encounter with an officer wanting to know how many rounds your "Clip" holds, you may end up with some appreciation for the ACLU types, should you need exercise your rights that the traditional (police are always right) conservatives have all but forgot about!

I am a firm believer that the 2nd Amendment should be viewed the same as other civil Rights, and at least the NV arm of the ACLU agrees in policy.

We don't agree with them (liberals) all the time, but don't fall for the "polarization" tactics. Us fighting each other is what keeps tyranny in power.

I wasn't referring to polarization, I was referring to how the group you counter-protested, misrepresented one of you on their blog site.

The Brady people might not be friendly towards us, and have not been down the same road as us, but I see no reason to "discount a fellow American for not understanding.

I do not confuse the Brady group as anything similar to rational-thinking persons. That isn't a partisan comment, it is based in how they lie in attempts to present their agenda.

It was 2009 that I got woke up to the fourth amendment, Does that make me less of an American? It was not until I understood the fourth that I was able to realize I had been misled on the second amendment. (I thought having a CCW was exercising my rights.)

I had similar awakenings, not that far in the past. Mine were more of apathy and ignorance. Becoming a gun owner first, a CCW holder second, and an OC'er third, has been my progression, within the past 15 years or so.

At the end of the day, Who am I to Judge them. If I can wake up why can't they?

Good on you for seeing that potential in those like the Brady Campaign. I do NOT see that capability in them. They are not of the stripe of 'thinking CCW is a Right Exercise,' they are of the stripe of 'ban the damn things!'
They might change. I will not waste my time attempting to get them to see reality. Are you familiar with Morton's Demon? If not, google it. It defines those like the Brady Campaign perfectly.

Why is a collective is required to ensure my individual rights?

A collective isn't required for that. BUT, a large collective group in session WILL have great impact. Otherwise, we are back at where you complained about when the SB237 committee received the amendment and no one was there........

 

[The Big Guy]

I am 100% serious with unconditional acceptance.

To the Big Guy: we have been told they cannot ignore the numbers in the helmet fight as well, every session it is in the top 5 for Pro comments, as well as flooding the committee rooms with motorcyclists. How is it that we have the most (non paid for) comments. the largest in your face constituency, and get ignored. meanwhile 31 other states have achieved adult choice?
I do not think we should not be engaged but I pose this question. How is it that protecting individual liberty's is best accomplished by utilizing collectivism?

Wrightme, I will try to arrange for you to attend a future meeting with the progress now folks if you want.

Why have you been ignored on the helmet issue? Could be because there is a group that they fear more. Ask those involved in other states how they gott'r done. I could speculate that they fear those with money. Maybe the people who benefit by the current law?

"How is it that protecting individual liberty's is best accomplished by utilizing collectivism?" I think you miss my point. I have repeatedly said that we need to surround the illegitimate children and make them scream. This includes local activism and combined efforts at the state and court levels. I don't know about you, but I just don't have the wherewithal to go to Carson City to lobby nor the time and money to challenge them in court. A collective effort among individuals is a proper tool to be used to accomplish a common goal.

Collectivism can be divided into horizontal collectivism and vertical collectivism. Horizontal collectivism stresses collective decision-making among equal individuals, and is thus usually based on decentralization and egalitarianism. Vertical collectivism is based on hierarchical structures of power and on moral and cultural conformity, and is therefore based on centralization and hierarchy.

TBG

 

[DON`T TREAD ON ME]

Well it appears that my efforts are misdirected, Since I am only one person, the upside is there is no chance I can make enough of a difference to mess things up! To the Big Guy, you said you do not have the funds to go to court, What happened to recruiting like minded people? The lawsuit I am involved in cost 400.00 so far, and I have two donations for twenty each. If 17 more people contributed I might have the luxury of donating to the NVFAC...
Note to the folks who contri8buted, We filed our points and authority's, and Specifically outlined the privileged docketing outlined in NRS 239 (the AB31 Bill that has nothing to do with gun rights) I will try to email you those documents before the weekend!

 

[The Big Guy]

Well it appears that my efforts are misdirected, Since I am only one person, the upside is there is no chance I can make enough of a difference to mess things up! To the Big Guy, you said you do not have the funds to go to court, What happened to recruiting like minded people? The lawsuit I am involved in cost 400.00 so far, and I have two donations for twenty each. If 17 more people contributed I might have the luxury of donating to the NVFAC...
Note to the folks who contri8buted, We filed our points and authority's, and Specifically outlined the privileged docketing outlined in NRS 239 (the AB31 Bill that has nothing to do with gun rights) I will try to email you those documents before the weekend!

There is only so much that an individual can take on. I have more on my plate than I can handle now. Money is only a part of it, time is a big factor. I have a business to run in a down economy and a big family that takes much of my time and attention. I am also heavily involved in efforts in another liberty oriented arena that has nothing to do with firearms. Recruiting others to help is also a big investment in time as I know from my other project.

If I missed it I'm sorry, but I did not know that you were in need of funds. Remind me, and others, what is needed and maybe we can come through for you.

TBG

 

[DON`T TREAD ON ME]

"The NICS background check database isn't as solid as a long of people think it is. One problem which has always plagued law enforcement records keeping, is getting arrest records into the system," said Randy Mackie with the Nevada Firearms Coaltion.

OUCH! Was that taken out of context?

Source: http://www.8newsnow.com/story/21190779/i-team

 

[Vegassteve]

OUCH! Was that taken out of context?

Source: http://www.8newsnow.com/story/21190779/i-team

Did this guy go to the bob Irwin pr school?

 

[DON`T TREAD ON ME]

If I see a statement like this from A gun Rights org. I would be inclined to stand on my head to join. The Gun Rights Orgs. tend to steer the arguments away from the hard truth and into something they can "work with."

I would like to point out that the Supreme Court has it wrong, in regards to, the right to bear arms, so do most gun advocates, including the NRA. Arms have been defined as those tools, which we can be hand carried. In fact, I recently heard a judge, who is a gun advocate, use this argument as well. He stated the word bear indicates weapons that can be carried, or shouldered.



The erosion of the term Arms, which in old American English meant armaments, to a narrow meaning of guns, or small arms, is going to be the death of us. The fact is, and it is easily verified, the definition of word bear, as used in the constitution is, to be equipped with or furnished, to carry or possess.



Arms, as used in the constitution, refer to Armaments, Armaments include any device or weapon used for defense or offense.



Americans seem to forget that the shots fired in Concord and Lexington, were not in defense of personal handguns or even rifles. The fact is they were defending their right to have and control their cannons. The British were coming to seize their cannons, and the citizens knew what this meant to their liberty.



Throughout our American history, there are many examples of communities and individuals using cannons, and machine guns, to protect themselves and their community, even as late as the mid 20th century.



Today, according to federal and state law, there is a huge list of weapons, that you cannot own, or transport in your vehicle. These include machine guns, artillery, armed aircraft, certain swords, double-edged knives, (such as the dirk,) nunchuks, billies, even defensive body armor is illegal in most jurisdictions. The long list of banned arms is staggering.



Now let us consider this. If the founders believed that cannons, swords, knives, rifles, and handguns, were all arms, (armaments) should not we.



Until the prohibition era, no one even questioned this. Americans were free to own any weapon, including machine guns, cannons, and even armed airplanes. We understood that the right to bear arms, was the right to defend ourselves against tyrants. Clearly, we knew that in order to defend ourselves, we needed to be equally armed. The right to be to equally armed was undisputed. Only the civilly dead, that is those incarcerated, or those who were executed, lost their right to bear arms.



No matter what we think, standing up with our small arms against the post 9/11 unified militarized police force is certain suicide. If our small arms are not even match for the unified, and heavily armored, militarized police force currently acting as a standing army within the United States, what chance do we have against the most modern military in history? What chance would we even have against an invader, such as China?



I am sorry to say this, but the fact is, we are all but disarmed already. We were effectively disarmed in the 20th century. The only right remaining is that of owning small arms, bad news for Bambi, good news for tyrants...

I do not bring this up to start a war about what the Gun orgs. are good for or not. I Bring it up to show a different thought process If you have seen a gun rights Org. Make a position statement like this, Post it and I will apologize. If not accept it for what it is, a fresh look!

My friend Will wrote the above.

 

[Vegassteve]

Just FYI in a email today from the nvfac, at the meeting if you bring your blue cards they will laminate them for free. That does not make me feel better. It should be a burning party of the cards. This to me is more a level of acceptance.