-
We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
-
If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
-
Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.
OC Appearance
- Thread starter Keens
- Start date
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Well I guess it falls into what is considered a hoodlum. Trust me I am not trying to be picky here, I just have considerable experience with this both as a LEO, and as a LEO posing as a hoodlum. Though I am no longer a cop I still have very many contacts who are cops, I also have friends who some people might consider hoodlums though most are LAC. I even have liberal friends that I discuss this with. One of the misconceptions that almost everybody who is not a cop and does not carry a gun whether CC or OC is that all of us are cop wannabes. Sorry it is what it is, and dressing like a cop does more harm than someone who dresses like a diverse citizen. IMO the perception is wrong, but appearing whether intentionally or not, it is what it is. So once we get passed how a person should dress to impress, what is next height weight proportionate, should obese short fat people not OC. I believe that people should dress within reason how they feel like dressing whether concealed or not. I believe that antis could care less how we dress. And pro OC not involved in a debate could care less how another dresses. The people in between are those people that already believe in 2A but not willing to carry a gun. They also could care less how we dress. The one factor that remains constant is most people have had both good and bad encounters with police. One third of people are uncomfortable around police even though they are LAC. Police have their own codes and one of them is people who they perceive as playing cop. I am sorry but a well dressed person OCing and being hassled by the cops is much more detrimental than someone like me who OC's and is not. Our behavior is what matters, both in these forums and in public. I also apologize for being so long winded.
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Wish I could break away from the farm... My father was stationed there at one time, Fort Carson I believe. From what I remember it was very attractive country, though it probably is much more populated now than then.
since9
Campaign Veteran
I've spotted a few misconceptions, as well as a few gems:
Bingo. And this leads us to:
Exactly. By "normal" I assume you're using in the statistical sense of what's considered "normal."
Here's the misconception. We're not attempting to normalize a fear, WalkingWolf. We're side-stepping being lumped into a category of lesser opinion by those who are afraid of firearms. The fear is irrational, yes. However, when those who fear firearms see factors which allow them to dismiss OC as irrational, they will do so. It doesn't matter whether their opinions of those other factors have merit or not. Simply associating them with OC is enough for the to dismiss OC along with the factors.
Semantically, this sentence is missing something...
Who is advocating looking like an LEO? Not I, nor anyone else here, for that matter (that I can tell).
Who is advocating trying to be someone they're not? Not I, nor anyone else here, for that matter (that I can tell).
My advice is that when you're OCing, you're representing all of us, so please be the best you can be while still being who you are.
This is really what it boils down to. I wear a t-shirt an skivvies inside my apartment throughout the summer to beat the heat. That's who I am. But I would NEVER OC in skivvies and a t-shirt. Instead, simply wear jeans (usually black) and a decent shirt (often collared, but not always). That's also who I am.
What I'm saying is that instead of being the worst you can be while OCing, simply strive for the upper third.
Sorry, but LEO's don't own this style, as it's worn by nearly all off-duty professionals and those who simply like to present themselves well to others. It's still not a "dress code."
Following RMGO's 2/3 rule, forget about convincing the die-hards (antis). The pro-2A folks don't need convincing, either. It's the middle thirds we're concerned about. They're the ones who've yet to cement an opinion, yet the quickest way to help them along is to dress poorly.
Oh, phooey.
If jeans and a polo is "like cops," both LEOs and you are sadly mistaken with respect to the idea that others are "dressing like cops." If anything, cops have adopted professional standards of appearance that were established decades, if not centuries ago. Pictures of Pinkerton Detectives in the 1800s show them dressed in professional attire of the day.
Why? Because dressing well garners respect, and dressing poorly attracts disdain, not only for the individual, but also for everything about which the individual stands, including OC.
Sure you do. In a perfect world, everyone would accept you and what you do exactly as you are.
We do not, however, live in a perfect world, and whatever respect you garner from others depends a good deal on how you appear to them. If you appear like a slob, they'll think you, and OC, is slobbish. If you appear professional, they'll think you and OC are professional.
That's just the world we live in. Doesn't mean you have to respect it, but if you can't respect reality, expecting any respect from reality is a might foolish.
"Hoodlum?" :banghead:
We're not talking about avoiding looking like a hoodlum, WW.
Perhaps that's why you're fixated on "hoodlum" when the rest of us are talking about something else.
I'll agree with you there.
I disagree with you there.
That's off-topic and silly.
Agreed, within reason, namely, the fact they're representing a larger group than themselves.
No, seriously, let's throw this back in your corner. Let's say an LEO arrived on duty unshaven and with a rumpled uniform. How would the public view him? Moreover, would he reflect credit upon the rest of the force, or would the rest of the force tell him to straighten up or quit?
Agreed.
Agreed, we don't really care, either. It's the undecided middle third about which we're concerned.
Not quite. Some are somewhat pro but not OC-friendly, some are somewhat anti but they keep an open mind.[/quote]
The demographic you characterize as being in the middle, yes. However, you're wrong about who is in the middle.
You keep bringing this into the thread, but it's not germane to the thread. The thread is concerned about OC appearance in general, not how cops see us, particularly when the general population outnumbers the cops around 10,000 to 1. Thus, your perspective has about 1/10,000th a vote in this discussion.
Again, wrong thread.
On that point, I agree, wholeheartedly. Yes, it matters. People see more than just our behavior, though.
Bingo. And this leads us to:
Exactly. By "normal" I assume you're using in the statistical sense of what's considered "normal."
Here's the misconception. We're not attempting to normalize a fear, WalkingWolf. We're side-stepping being lumped into a category of lesser opinion by those who are afraid of firearms. The fear is irrational, yes. However, when those who fear firearms see factors which allow them to dismiss OC as irrational, they will do so. It doesn't matter whether their opinions of those other factors have merit or not. Simply associating them with OC is enough for the to dismiss OC along with the factors.
Semantically, this sentence is missing something...
Who is advocating looking like an LEO? Not I, nor anyone else here, for that matter (that I can tell).
Who is advocating trying to be someone they're not? Not I, nor anyone else here, for that matter (that I can tell).
My advice is that when you're OCing, you're representing all of us, so please be the best you can be while still being who you are.
This is really what it boils down to. I wear a t-shirt an skivvies inside my apartment throughout the summer to beat the heat. That's who I am. But I would NEVER OC in skivvies and a t-shirt. Instead, simply wear jeans (usually black) and a decent shirt (often collared, but not always). That's also who I am.
What I'm saying is that instead of being the worst you can be while OCing, simply strive for the upper third.
Sorry, but LEO's don't own this style, as it's worn by nearly all off-duty professionals and those who simply like to present themselves well to others. It's still not a "dress code."
Following RMGO's 2/3 rule, forget about convincing the die-hards (antis). The pro-2A folks don't need convincing, either. It's the middle thirds we're concerned about. They're the ones who've yet to cement an opinion, yet the quickest way to help them along is to dress poorly.
Oh, phooey.
If jeans and a polo is "like cops," both LEOs and you are sadly mistaken with respect to the idea that others are "dressing like cops." If anything, cops have adopted professional standards of appearance that were established decades, if not centuries ago. Pictures of Pinkerton Detectives in the 1800s show them dressed in professional attire of the day.
Why? Because dressing well garners respect, and dressing poorly attracts disdain, not only for the individual, but also for everything about which the individual stands, including OC.
Sure you do. In a perfect world, everyone would accept you and what you do exactly as you are.
We do not, however, live in a perfect world, and whatever respect you garner from others depends a good deal on how you appear to them. If you appear like a slob, they'll think you, and OC, is slobbish. If you appear professional, they'll think you and OC are professional.
That's just the world we live in. Doesn't mean you have to respect it, but if you can't respect reality, expecting any respect from reality is a might foolish.
"Hoodlum?" :banghead:
We're not talking about avoiding looking like a hoodlum, WW.
Perhaps that's why you're fixated on "hoodlum" when the rest of us are talking about something else.
I'll agree with you there.
I disagree with you there.
That's off-topic and silly.
Agreed, within reason, namely, the fact they're representing a larger group than themselves.
No, seriously, let's throw this back in your corner. Let's say an LEO arrived on duty unshaven and with a rumpled uniform. How would the public view him? Moreover, would he reflect credit upon the rest of the force, or would the rest of the force tell him to straighten up or quit?
Agreed.
Agreed, we don't really care, either. It's the undecided middle third about which we're concerned.
Not quite. Some are somewhat pro but not OC-friendly, some are somewhat anti but they keep an open mind.[/quote]
The demographic you characterize as being in the middle, yes. However, you're wrong about who is in the middle.
You keep bringing this into the thread, but it's not germane to the thread. The thread is concerned about OC appearance in general, not how cops see us, particularly when the general population outnumbers the cops around 10,000 to 1. Thus, your perspective has about 1/10,000th a vote in this discussion.
Again, wrong thread.
On that point, I agree, wholeheartedly. Yes, it matters. People see more than just our behavior, though.
wrightme
Regular Member
You are picking a bunch of nits. I suggest you review my statements for the actual position I presented, and ignore if you will, the minutia.
If you desire to further the cause of normalizing OC, dress the part.
If you desire to simply exercise a Right, dress as you want, and accept the reactions.
If you dress to normalize, by paying attention to appearance and demeanor, you DO stand a better chance of having others react less. Sure you can "what if" or "I know some LE do this" until you have lost complete grip upon the actual point I spoke to, but it is simple, and you don't need to dissect it.
JamesCanby
Activist Member
First time I have seen this video. Kudos to the reporter for not being snarky and for good, open and objective reporting.
Kingfish
Regular Member
This has been said by these folks. Very specifically it was said that if you weigh 300 pounds you should not OC.
Sorry folks. Unless you are signing my paycheck or cooking my supper then you won't tell me how to dress. I will wear MY normal clothes and MY hair and beard will be worn as I damn well please.
JamesCanby
Activist Member
I must have missed this. Can you point to a specific cite/post? I have attended OC functions where the average weight was above what most would consider to be "normal," and no one gave any indication of disapproval.
Kingfish
Regular Member
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
I agree~~and I will also continue to exercise my freedom to be diverse~~glad I am not alone. I buy no means dress like a bum. I wear nice jeans, a button down what some would call a dress shirt. My hair is clean, as well as my beard. I sometimes bathe twice a day, now how abnormal is that. I do these things not for anybody else, not for PC, not for OC, or CC. I do these things because it is who I am, and I am not changing for any close minded person who believes they are the OC fashion police. I think I have been very polite, but bigotry is bigotry no matter how one wishes to convey it. BTW I am 5' 10" and 190 and fairly muscular for my age, must be chopping firewood. I am sure my neighbors think I am nuts for chopping firewood while being armed because I am not wearing dockers.
Honestly folks don't you think making people feel uncomfortable doing what is a right, is going to possibly make them have second thoughts. I would think having more and more people OC and diverse the best medicine to normalizing OC. Right now I am usually alone, I certainly would feel more normal if others would OC.
Just Sayin'
JamesCanby
Activist Member
Right. One person voiced that opinion, which was immediately contradicted by others. You are generalizing from a specific -- fallacious logic.
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
OK I went and looked at that thread~~I respectfully disagree with you. It was quite clear as it is here that there is disdain for anyone different. No matter how politely bigotry is it is still bigotry.
HandyHamlet
Regular Member
A thread with a bunch of guys who champion freedom telling everyone how to think, dress, and act.
Brilliant. Well done all!
Brilliant. Well done all!
wrightme
Regular Member
Other people do that already. Some of this discussion is BECAUSE other people do that. Why? Because OC isn't normalized. That has nothing to do with dress code. It has everything to do with how the general public views OC, and how they view those who do OC. You could very obviously approach attire and demeanor differently in vermont wrt OC and CT wrt OC. That has nothing to do with "making people feel uncomfortable," and has everything to do with a PR campaign to normalize OC in areas where it isn't viewed as "normal;" Right or not.
As for your attire while chopping firewood, I doubt your neighbors blink an eye at you for that. But, if you were to come directly from digging a ditch to the mall to shop, and still looked like you just got out of a ditch, that WILL change how others view you, whether you agree with them doing that or not. Now, you add their "fear" to that by OC, and you just about guaranteed that their "fear" is reinforced, as opposed to alleviated. That is human nature, and that is about a PR campaign, not about creating a dress code. In Arizona, such would likely not be untoward like it might be in CT.
As I mentioned before, dress as you want for what you want.
If you simply want to exercise your Right, do it.
If you actually want to participate in normalizing OC, and help avoid reinforcing the "fear" that some people have, dress for the PR campaign aspect of normalizing the Right. That is entirely your choice.
wrightme
Regular Member
Which persons are actually telling someone how to think, dress, and act?
wrightme
Regular Member
Some hold that view. Others do not. There was a mix in that thread. In particular....
Do you agree or disagree with that post?
Kingfish
Regular Member
Then count me OUT of your PR campain. For me, I will carry how I wish and wear and look how I like while protecting myself and my family.
I will go about my daily life with my properly holstered handgun....I think I have read this line somewhere before.
Kingfish
Regular Member
Um...YOU JUST DID.
You are saying that if we want to play in your club that we have to dress (and act?) as you say...No thanks.
wrightme
Regular Member
So, you want no part of normalizing OC?
And you are free to do so.Kingfish said:
You DO understand that the hoplophobes will judge you on your appearance and demeanor, regardless?
Which is a very good thing to do, which I do encourage everyone to do, no matter how they dress or appear.Kingfish said:
wrightme
Regular Member
No, I did not.
No, I did not. I point out that if the goal is to normalize OC, appearance WILL change how others react. Do you not agree with that for some odd reason?Kingfish said: