OC without CPL on a bicycle legal, Maybe not????

[aepfelsauce]

It would seem simple that "self propelled" is the key word. A Bicycle requires the rider to propel it, as opposed to a motor or other device, wherein the rider is not a part of the drive train.

750.227d doesn't apply to pistols.

The relevant law says "in a vehicle"

So it doesn't matter whether it's a motorcycle or a bicycle. The word "in" is more important.

 

[PDinDetroit]

750.227d doesn't apply to pistols.

The relevant law saw "in a vehicle"

So it doesn't matter whether it's a motorcycle or bicycle. The word "in" is more important.

You cannot imagine the amount of discussion on the bolded part above...

[video=youtube;j4XT-l-_3y0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4XT-l-_3y0[/video]

 

[PDinDetroit]

The only "safe" or safer way to do this, is to get a CPL holder to OC on a bike, and get charged with CC because they didnt have a CPL on them at the time. And then beat the case. Its less likely that a person who has a CPl, but doesnt have it on them, would be charged to begin with. IIRC, if you dont have it with you, your gun will be taken, and you have a certain time limit to go and prove that you have a CPL, otherwise you lose the gun to forfeit.

I dont know if that would be enough to even set a precedent for the states courts to follow however.

I would maybe change the "not having CPL on them" to "not disclosing". Might kill a few birds with one stone...

 

[Yance]

Just to humor myself, last week I had sent an email to the AG regarding IWB carry and is that OC or CC and also regarding OCing on a bicycle w/out a CPL. Both cases I referenced the section in the MSP legal update #86 which stated a pistol is "considered OC if it is easily noticable by the casual observer" and while riding a bike it is as noticable and "out there" as it would be if you were walking instead...Havent heard anything back yet.

 

[PDinDetroit]

Just to humor myself, last week I had sent an email to the AG regarding IWB carry and is that OC or CC and also regarding OCing on a bicycle w/out a CPL. Both cases I referenced the section in the MSP legal update #86 which stated a pistol is "considered OC if it is easily noticable by the casual observer" and while riding a bike it is as noticable and "out there" as it would be if you were walking instead...Havent heard anything back yet.

Unfortunately, the MI AG does not work for us. If you can get a MI Legislator to submit the question, then you may get an answer.

 

[Yance]

Good suggestion, the extra effort cant hurt if we are able to get some solid answers. Whos a good one to start with?

 

[lapeer20m]

_

Originally Posted by stainless1911
The only "safe" or safer way to do this, is to get a CPL holder to OC on a bike, and get charged with CC because they didnt have a CPL on them at the time. And then beat the case. Its less likely that a person who has a CPl, but doesnt have it on them, would be charged to begin with. IIRC, if you dont have it with you, your gun will be taken, and you have a certain time limit to go and prove that you have a CPL, otherwise you lose the gun to forfeit.

I dont know if that would be enough to even set a precedent for the states courts to follow however.

While safer because the penalty is not as severe, it would take a much lower burden of proof because first infraction of violating cpl is a civil infraction thus requiring only 50% more guilty than not compared to a felony or misdemeanor which requires proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[Yance]

Rough Draft

So this is the letter I have so far...

Representative Bolger,


I first would like to thank you for taking the time to read my email and in advance for your help in this matter. The reason I am emailing you today is for multiple reasons, the first being there is some slight confusion in regards to the recent Michigan State Police Legal Update #86 as well as openly carrying a firearm on a motorcycle or bicycle. An Attorney General opinion on these matters would clarify the present gray areas.

First, the Michigan State Police Legal Update #86 has caused some confusion in the firearm community regarding Open Carry, the update states that a firearm that is partially concealed is considered concealed, however in the same update it goes on to state that a firearm is within the boundaries of being open carried if it is easily noticeable by a casual observer. The question here, as well as the reason for the email, is to ask for your help in receiving a formal and official opinion from the Michigan Attorney General regarding if carrying a firearm in a "in the waistband" style holster is considered concealed or open carry. An "in the waistband" style holster is designed to sit with the holster inside the pants secured onto a belt the person is wearing allowing the grip, rear sights and some of the trigger guard of a pistol to be above the top of the pants and in plain view. According to the MSP legal update #86 it would fit within the guidlines of Open Carry because the firearm is able to be noticed by a casual observer, observers of which more often than not do not notice a firearm in an outside the waistband holster. The firearm itself is no more concealed using an "in the waistband" style holster than it is sitting in a normal holster, all parts of the firearm that are "out in plain view" are the same parts of the firearm that are visible while secured in an "in the waistband" style holster. There has been a lot of discussion on this topic but it seems there is no clear answer if an "in the waistband" holster is considered Open Carry since you are still able to identify the firearm that is seated in the holster. Again the reason I am emailing you is to ask for your help in requesting a formal and official Attorney General opinion regarding the "in the waistband holster" and its use for Open Carry. I would like to inform you that this decision would affect how Concealed Pistol License holders Open Carry in Pistol Free Zones as permitted by law, as well as other Michigan Laws pertaining to carrying a concealed firearm.

Secondly, regarding carrying a pistol openly while riding on a motorcycle or on a bicycle there is debate whether carrying on a motorcycle or bicycle falls within the restrictions of MCL 750.227 and the concealed weapons laws. Again I ask for your help receiving a formal and official Attorney General opinion regarding this matter.

MCL 750.227 states that "a person shall not have on or about their person a pistol, concealed or otherwise while seated in a vehicle.."

MCL 750.227c Section 1 states that "except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a sailboat or a motor vehicle, aircraft, motorboat, or any other vehicle propelled by mechanical means, a firearm,other than a pistol which is loaded"

MCL 750.227d also states that "except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, which is loaded.

Both statutes above, .227c & .227d reference to being upon a vehicle propelled by mechanical means, .227d takes it a bit further to state "...designed for land travel.." a firearm other than a pistol. the term "other than" is defined by the Merriam-Webster dictionary as meaning "except for" as well as defining the word "in" as meaning "within" or "inside". So the two statutes above are saying that you cannot possess a firearm except for a pistol while upon a vehicle propelled by mechanical means, i.e. bicycle, that is designed for land travel. The question here is, by open carrying a firearm while upon a bicycle or motorcycle, would someone without a Concealed Pistol License be in violation of MCL 750.227 and be carrying a concealed weapon. As I understand it a person is in violation of 750.227 in their vehicle because someone approaching a vehicle cannot tell if the person in the vehicle is armed or not. However someone approaching someone on a bicycle or motorcycle could easily see if that person was carrying a firearm openly, leaving them not in violation of MCL 750.227 as the pistol is not concealed or hidden from view any differently than it would be if that person was walking down the street.

Your help requesting an official Attorney General opinion on these matters will be greatly appreciated and valued by every citizen of the State of Michigan who carries a firearm.



Thank you,

Adam Yancer

Suggestions or opinions appreciated.

 

[PDinDetroit]

So this is the letter I have so far...

Representative Bolger,


I first would like to thank you for taking the time to read my email and in advance for your help in this matter. The reason I am emailing you today is for multiple reasons, the first being there is some slight confusion in regards to the recent Michigan State Police Legal Update #86 as well as openly carrying a firearm on a motorcycle or bicycle. An Attorney General opinion on these matters would clarify the present gray areas.

First, the Michigan State Police Legal Update #86 has caused some confusion in the firearm community regarding Open Carry, the update states that a firearm that is partially concealed is considered concealed, however in the same update it goes on to state that a firearm is within the boundaries of being open carried if it is easily noticeable by a casual observer. The question here, as well as the reason for the email, is to ask for your help in receiving a formal and official opinion from the Michigan Attorney General regarding if carrying a firearm in a "in the waistband" style holster is considered concealed or open carry. An "in the waistband" style holster is designed to sit with the holster inside the pants secured onto a belt the person is wearing allowing the grip, rear sights and some of the trigger guard of a pistol to be above the top of the pants and in plain view. According to the MSP legal update #86 it would fit within the guidlines of Open Carry because the firearm is able to be noticed by a casual observer, observers of which more often than not do not notice a firearm in an outside the waistband holster. The firearm itself is no more concealed using an "in the waistband" style holster than it is sitting in a normal holster, all parts of the firearm that are "out in plain view" are the same parts of the firearm that are visible while secured in an "in the waistband" style holster. There has been a lot of discussion on this topic but it seems there is no clear answer if an "in the waistband" holster is considered Open Carry since you are still able to identify the firearm that is seated in the holster. Again the reason I am emailing you is to ask for your help in requesting a formal and official Attorney General opinion regarding the "in the waistband holster" and its use for Open Carry. I would like to inform you that this decision would affect how Concealed Pistol License holders Open Carry in Pistol Free Zones as permitted by law, as well as other Michigan Laws pertaining to carrying a concealed firearm.

Secondly, regarding carrying a pistol openly while riding on a motorcycle or on a bicycle there is debate whether carrying on a motorcycle or bicycle falls within the restrictions of MCL 750.227 and the concealed weapons laws. Again I ask for your help receiving a formal and official Attorney General opinion regarding this matter.

MCL 750.227 states that "a person shall not have on or about their person a pistol, concealed or otherwise while seated in a vehicle.."

MCL 750.227c Section 1 states that "except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a sailboat or a motor vehicle, aircraft, motorboat, or any other vehicle propelled by mechanical means, a firearm,other than a pistol which is loaded"

MCL 750.227d also states that "except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, which is loaded.

Both statutes above, .227c & .227d reference to being upon a vehicle propelled by mechanical means, .227d takes it a bit further to state "...designed for land travel.." a firearm other than a pistol. the term "other than" is defined by the Merriam-Webster dictionary as meaning "except for" as well as defining the word "in" as meaning "within" or "inside". So the two statutes above are saying that you cannot possess a firearm except for a pistol while upon a vehicle propelled by mechanical means, i.e. bicycle, that is designed for land travel. The question here is, by open carrying a firearm while upon a bicycle or motorcycle, would someone without a Concealed Pistol License be in violation of MCL 750.227 and be carrying a concealed weapon. As I understand it a person is in violation of 750.227 in their vehicle because someone approaching a vehicle cannot tell if the person in the vehicle is armed or not. However someone approaching someone on a bicycle or motorcycle could easily see if that person was carrying a firearm openly, leaving them not in violation of MCL 750.227 as the pistol is not concealed or hidden from view any differently than it would be if that person was walking down the street.

Your help requesting an official Attorney General opinion on these matters will be greatly appreciated and valued by every citizen of the State of Michigan who carries a firearm.



Thank you,

Adam Yancer

Suggestions or opinions appreciated.

Good job!

 

[Venator]

I found it too long. I suggest this.

Representative Bolger,

I am contacting you in regards to a few firearm law questions. First question; is the open carry of a handgun without a Concealed Pistol License (CPL) lawful while riding a bicycle. There is some question that a bicycle may be a vehicle under state law and the concealed carry statutes would apply. Some argue that a bicycle is not a vehicle and therefore you would not need a CPL to open carry a handgun while riding one. The Michigan State Police via an email opined that open carry without a CPL is lawful on both a motorcycle and a bicycle

The second concern I have is in regards to an inside the waist band holster (IWB). This type of holster is covered by the pants, but the top half of the firearm is in plain view. Could a person without a CPL open carry a handgun using an IWB holster? The question involves whether a reasonable person could discern that a person had a firearm wearing this type of holster. According to the MSP legal update #86 http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf it would fit within the guidelines of Open Carry because the firearm is able to be noticed by a casual observer.

Lastly in regarding to carrying a pistol openly while riding on a motorcycle without a CPL. Whould this action falls within the restrictions of MCL 750.227 and the concealed weapons laws. That is, can a person without a CPL open carry a handgun while driving a motorcycle?

An Attorney General opinion on these matters would clarify the present gray areas.

Your help requesting an official Attorney General opinion on these matters is greatly appreciated and valued by every citizen of the State of Michigan who carries a firearm.

MCL 750.227 states that "a person shall not have on or about their person a pistol, concealed or otherwise while seated in a vehicle.."

MCL 750.227c Section 1 states that "except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a sailboat or a motor vehicle, aircraft, motorboat, or any other vehicle propelled by mechanical means, a firearm, other than a pistol which is loaded"

MCL 750.227d also states that "except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, which is loaded.

Thank you,

Adam Yancer

 

[Bronson]

I found it too long. I suggest this.

Representative Bolger,

I am contacting you in regards to a few firearm law questions. First question; is the open carry of a handgun without a Concealed Pistol License (CPL) lawful while riding a bicycle. There is some question that a bicycle may be a vehicle under state law and the concealed carry statutes would apply. Some argue that a bicycle is not a vehicle and therefore you would not need a CPL to open carry a handgun while riding one. The Michigan State Police via an email opined that open carry without a CPL is lawful on both a motorcycle and a bicycle

The second concern I have is in regards to an inside the waist band holster (IWB). This type of holster is covered by the pants, but the top half of the firearm is in plain view. Could a person without a CPL open carry a handgun using an IWB holster? The question involves whether a reasonable person could discern that a person had a firearm wearing this type of holster. According to the MSP legal update #86 http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf it would fit within the guidelines of Open Carry because the firearm is able to be noticed by a casual observer.

Lastly in regard to carrying a pistol openly while riding on a motorcycle without a CPL. Would this action fall within the restrictions of MCL 750.227 and the concealed weapons laws? That is, can a person without a CPL open carry a handgun while driving a motorcycle?

An Attorney General opinion on these matters would clarify the present gray areas.

Your help requesting an official Attorney General opinion on these matters is greatly appreciated and valued by every citizen of the State of Michigan who carries a firearm.

MCL 750.227 states that "a person shall not have on or about their person a pistol, concealed or otherwise while seated in a vehicle.."

MCL 750.227c Section 1 states that "except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a sailboat or a motor vehicle, aircraft, motorboat, or any other vehicle propelled by mechanical means, a firearm, other than a pistol which is loaded"

MCL 750.227d also states that "except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, which is loaded.

Thank you,

Adam Yancer

Agreed that it was too long and difficult to follow, and I know what you're writing about. A couple of minor corrections in red above.

Bronson

 

[Venator]

Agreed that it was too long and difficult to follow, and I know what you're writing about. A couple of minor corrections in red above.

Bronson

Thanks, it's hard to work within someone else's writing, tenses and all.

 

[Yance]

Thanks for the suggestions, I sent it out so I guess I'll wait and see if I receive a response back. If I do I'll let everyone know.

 

[aepfelsauce]

The only "safe" or safer way to do this, is to get a CPL holder to OC on a bike, and get charged with CC because they didnt have a CPL on them at the time. And then beat the case. Its less likely that a person who has a CPl, but doesnt have it on them, would be charged to begin with. IIRC, if you dont have it with you, your gun will be taken, and you have a certain time limit to go and prove that you have a CPL, otherwise you lose the gun to forfeit.

I dont know if that would be enough to even set a precedent for the states courts to follow however.

iceman commander or w/e just got pulled over for ocing on his bike and refused to show his cpl, I'm not sure if he ultimately gave it to them or not though.

 

[stainless1911]

Im pretty sure they found out, legally or otherwise, otherwise they would have likely charged him. They were looking for any excuse to do so.

 

[stainless1911]

Good to hear. Early December might be a little more realistic. What county are you in?

 

[Venator]

1. Why?
2. Depends on definition of current residence.

Your legal residence. Counties vary on how fast they process the CPL.

 

[stainless1911]

Oh geez. Ive heard they can be a little slow with thiers. Maybe you could just go in and pick it up.

 

[DrTodd]

Agreed that it was too long and difficult to follow, and I know what you're writing about. A couple of minor corrections in red above.

Bronson

The issue of whether a pistol is concealed is one left to a jury. Just take a look at almost any Michigan appeals or Supreme court decision dealing with a ccw charge, this "truism" is stated over and over. The only way that there has been any AG opinion regarding was because it really was never asked for directly, rather through the round about way concerning 28.425o restrictions. I would rather see, though, a legislative change be made concerning OC. I know that some states have gone as far as placing square inch of weapon exposed requirements into their laws, perhaps we should too. But, I really have a hard time believing that would happen... we are still waiting for any movement at all concerning the bill to eliminate PFZ's.

The issue regarding bicycles and motorcycles is, however, a bit different. The only case dealing with the issue, People v Nimeth, dealt with a person who hid his gun in a space in the frame of a motorcycle. The court went to great lengths to say that since the pistol was "in" the motorcycle, I would think that absent being in a saddlebag or otherwise hidden from view, no crime has been commited. But, an AG opinion would be great... I don't think Mr Scheutte really wants to answer that, though. He seems pretty content to not further anyone's rights.

 

[stainless1911]

I think a "square inch " regulation could be bad. What if they raised the square inch requirement to where it was just a little bit bigger than most guns?