OC without retention -- Irresponsible?

[Comp-tech]

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longwatch wrote:

The damage is done man, I'll never carry with a Fobus. Sure a takeaway won't go as smooth in real life but with another holster I won't have to fight so hard to keep it.

I didn't mean to imply that a Fobus is "the thing" for all things OC......I only OC in very familiar locations at present due to LEO attitude and a Fobus is OK for me right now.....I may very well want something different for "everywhere OC"......

 

[longwatch]

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Comp-tech wrote:

longwatch wrote:

The damage is done man, I'll never carry with a Fobus. Sure a takeaway won't go as smooth in real life but with another holster I won't have to fight so hard to keep it.

I didn't mean to imply that a Fobus is "the thing" for all things OC......I only OC in very familiar locations at present due to LEO attitude and a Fobus is OK for me right now.....I may very well want something different for "everywhere OC"......

Its cool. I hate to dis another persons gear but that video is what it is. People love them though.

 

[openryan]

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longwatch wrote:

Comp-tech wrote:

longwatch wrote:

The damage is done man, I'll never carry with a Fobus. Sure a takeaway won't go as smooth in real life but with another holster I won't have to fight so hard to keep it.

I didn't mean to imply that a Fobus is "the thing" for all things OC......I only OC in very familiar locations at present due to LEO attitude and a Fobus is OK for me right now.....I may very well want something different for "everywhere OC"......

Its cool. I hate to dis another persons gear but that video is what it is. People love them though.

I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't think you would have to fight any less hard with another holster, to say that you could fight less, and let your holster do the work is frivilous...

I think you are speaking of someone taking the firearm and fighting to get it back, while oc'ing you have to be alert, with any holster, they all have their faults, wether it be retention or draw speed.

I respect your opinion though

 

[bohdi]

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Wooley wrote:

You have the famous Serpa.

Do you CC with it? And if you do how do you like it? I rarely use mine for CC, its kinda bulky.

I've got a Serpa and have CC/OC'd with it. For CC it depends on the shirt you wear, and how closely the shirt hugs you. Having dropped about 30 pounds in the last 3.5 months I have some room to spare now I CC'd with it (no paddle) the first time I carried (see centreville/chantilly thread) and my wife didn't notice then. For me it's nice to have the trigger covered, and I like the retention feature and the finger release.

 

[bohdi]

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double post, penalty on the play

 

[longwatch]

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openryan wrote:

longwatch wrote:

Comp-tech wrote:

longwatch wrote:

The damage is done man, I'll never carry with a Fobus. Sure a takeaway won't go as smooth in real life but with another holster I won't have to fight so hard to keep it.

I didn't mean to imply that a Fobus is "the thing" for all things OC......I only OC in very familiar locations at present due to LEO attitude and a Fobus is OK for me right now.....I may very well want something different for "everywhere OC"......

Its cool. I hate to dis another persons gear but that video is what it is. People love them though.

I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't think you would have to fight any less hard with another holster, to say that you could fight less, and let your holster do the work is frivilous...

I think you are speaking of someone taking the firearm and fighting to get it back, while oc'ing you have to be alert, with any holster, they all have their faults, wether it be retention or draw speed.

I respect your opinion though

Actually its not frivilous, it's hard to explain without demonstrating it but in a gun grab attempt the key thing of course is to keep your gun in your possession. If its in the holster, you want to keep it there obviously. There are other methods but the easiest and most instincting thing to do is push downward on the pistol. Unfortunately with the Fobus this exacerbates the weakness of the holster. The alternative to the push down is a push in towards the body method, but your leverage is much less, it is going to be harder to retain the pistol. With other holsters such as leather open tops with no retention this push down is best. However going back to the OP I think if you have more active retention methods it opens up the possibility of attacking the gun grabbers hand or body. While the are trying to figure out your retention mechanism you could say try a pressure point or to break a finger, or go for a backup weapon.

I agree with you that our situational awareness is our best defense, but the good guys are only human and can screw up sometimes, not to mention that criminals are sneaky bastards. Hence it doesn't hurt to have a backup plan when Mr. Murphy strikes.

 

[UTOC-45-44]

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My wife doesn't mind if "OC" without retention:what:. She says "faster the draw":lol:"the better":lol:. And I'm responsible:lol:

 

[openryan]

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longwatch wrote:

openryan wrote:

longwatch wrote:

Comp-tech wrote:

longwatch wrote:

The damage is done man, I'll never carry with a Fobus. Sure a takeaway won't go as smooth in real life but with another holster I won't have to fight so hard to keep it.

I didn't mean to imply that a Fobus is "the thing" for all things OC......I only OC in very familiar locations at present due to LEO attitude and a Fobus is OK for me right now.....I may very well want something different for "everywhere OC"......

Its cool. I hate to dis another persons gear but that video is what it is. People love them though.

I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't think you would have to fight any less hard with another holster, to say that you could fight less, and let your holster do the work is frivilous...

I think you are speaking of someone taking the firearm and fighting to get it back, while oc'ing you have to be alert, with any holster, they all have their faults, wether it be retention or draw speed.

I respect your opinion though

Actually its not frivilous, it's hard to explain without demonstrating it but in a gun grab attempt the key thing of course is to keep your gun in your possession. If its in the holster, you want to keep it there obviously. There are other methods but the easiest and most instincting thing to do is push downward on the pistol. Unfortunately with the Fobus this exacerbates the weakness of the holster. The alternative to the push down is a push in towards the body method, but your leverage is much less, it is going to be harder to retain the pistol. With other holsters such as leather open tops with no retention this push down is best. However going back to the OP I think if you have more active retention methods it opens up the possibility of attacking the gun grabbers hand or body. While the are trying to figure out your retention mechanism you could say try a pressure point or to break a finger, or go for a backup weapon.

I agree with you that our situational awareness is our best defense, but the good guys are only human and can screw up sometimes, not to mention that criminals are sneaky bastards. Hence it doesn't hurt to have a backup plan when Mr. Murphy strikes.

Okay, I will concede to this:

For a beginner a fobus is probably not the way to go with open carry, and it would be harder to keep control of your firearm if you do not have hand to hand combat training. Pepper spray would be a good option if you can pull it out during an event like this.

However I feel that with proper training an open top holster can be as safe as a serpa or others with higher retention levels.

This is why I also carry my weapon with a loaded magazine, but not one in the pipe, in case of a situation like this, also because my girlfriend has a child, and if she got a hold of it for some reason I can't even think of, she is too young to rack the slide (i will probably get flamed for that comment) but I know that for a fact right now she cannot do it.

 

[sitedzn]

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i don't know how old your gf's daughter is, but my son is almost 5, and he knows that he isn't allowed to touch any gun in the house unless i hand it to him. any time i ask him, which is often, what do you do if you see a gun (not on someone) his first answer is always don't touch it. Eddie Eagleis a good thing!

What is The Eddie Eagle GunSafe[suP]®[/suP] Program?

[align=left] The Eddie Eagle GunSafe[suP]®[/suP] Program teaches children in pre-K through third grade four important steps to take if they find a gun. These steps are presented by the program's mascot, Eddie Eagle[suP]®[/suP], in an easy-to-remember format consisting of the following simple rules:
[/align]
If you see a gun:
STOP!
Don't Touch.
Leave the Area.
Tell an Adult.

 

[Tomahawk]

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I use an IWB Don Hume open-top holster, worn between the pants and belt. It's pretty tight, and I use love-handle retention.

 

[longwatch]

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openryan wrote:

snip

Okay, I will concede to this:

For a beginner a fobus is probably not the way to go with open carry, and it would be harder to keep control of your firearm if you do not have hand to hand combat training. Pepper spray would be a good option if you can pull it out during an event like this.

However I feel that with proper training an open top holster can be as safe as a serpa or others with higher retention levels.

This is why I also carry my weapon with a loaded magazine, but not one in the pipe, in case of a situation like this, also because my girlfriend has a child, and if she got a hold of it for some reason I can't even think of, she is too young to rack the slide (i will probably get flamed for that comment) but I know that for a fact right now she cannot do it.

I would say the same reasons the fobus isn't good for the inexperienced apply to the experienced. I can't fault your reasons for condition 3 carry, I hope you practice the Israeli draw alot to make it work for you. This includes one handed draws too because you cannot count on having too hands available.

 

[openryan]

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longwatch wrote:

openryan wrote:

snip

Okay, I will concede to this:

For a beginner a fobus is probably not the way to go with open carry, and it would be harder to keep control of your firearm if you do not have hand to hand combat training. Pepper spray would be a good option if you can pull it out during an event like this.

However I feel that with proper training an open top holster can be as safe as a serpa or others with higher retention levels.

This is why I also carry my weapon with a loaded magazine, but not one in the pipe, in case of a situation like this, also because my girlfriend has a child, and if she got a hold of it for some reason I can't even think of, she is too young to rack the slide (i will probably get flamed for that comment) but I know that for a fact right now she cannot do it.

I would say the same reasons the fobus isn't good for the inexperienced apply to the experienced. I can't fault your reasons for condition 3 carry, I hope you practice the Israeli draw alot to make it work for you. This includes one handed draws too because you cannot count on having too hands available.

I should get a revolver -- I am wanting a S&W .357 1 7/8th barrel airweight

 

[longwatch]

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Not a bad idea, but you then sort of defeat your safety purpose of condition 3 carry. Unless you are willing to unload the pistol when not in use, however for my money a revolver is the most suitable kind of pistol if one expects to be doing administrative loading and unloading. Easier to secure too, any normal sized padlock can be secured through the frame rendering the pistol unusable. If you have a set of handcuffs doing the same thing or put the cuff around the frame with the cylinder closed in a manner that locks the hammer down (sorry can't find a picture of this). Then you secure the other cuff to something solid like a radiator, drainpipe, hundred pound dumbell, etc.

 

[UTOC-45-44]

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Tomahawk wrote:

I use an IWB Don Hume open-top holster, worn between the pants and belt. It's pretty tight, and I use love-handle retention.

"Love-Handle Retention"...:what:...:lol:.



That's funny, I don't care who you are, that's funny right there.

 

[Hawkflyer]

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Tomahawk wrote:

I use an IWB Don Hume open-top holster, worn between the pants and belt. It's pretty tight, and I use love-handle retention.

If you have a good tool ... Build a roof over it.

 

[Grapeshot]

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Okay, we all agree that some level of retention is better than no retention; however, no level of retention is perfect not even a cable and lock. Anyone that recognizes your particular type of holster can snatch it nearly as fast as you can draw it! I've seen it done particularly when the perp presses in hard against your back.

Nothing will ever replace situational awareness and (my preferance) resting my forearm on top of my 1911 when in close proximaty to others. Also I never carry anything in my dominate hand.

Yata hey

 

[exceltoexcel]

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I say nonsense, the person with more training will win.

 

[Grapeshot]

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exceltoexcel wrote:

I say nonsense, the person with more training will win.

Training is good. More training is better and practicing real life possibilities is fantastic reinforcement. Yet superior training and the best equipment do not guarantee success/survival.

The first one that moves wins. The hand is quicker than the eye. What you don't see can hurt you. You can be had if someone wants you badly enough. These are all cliches but contain a major element of truth.

Superior training has not protected our military personnel. Happen chance and luck trump training. Everytime I read of fallen LEs and members of the armed forces, I say a silent prayer and end with "There but for the grace of God go I."

Train to confidence but become neither complacent nor over-confident.

I think that I have gotten considerably off the thread with this so if you want to discourse further on this, lets get a new thread going.
Yata hey

 

[Kevin108]

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I don't think it's irresponsible. 90% of the people I've been around who OC (and I myself) use a Fobus paddle holster or something similar. I've never felt there was a significant risk when OCing with this style of holster.

 

[zoom6zoom]

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Para,(since it looks like no one answered your question) the exposed trigger on a properly fitted holster for a revolver shouldn't be an issue because the holster will prevent the cylinder from turning. However, it does nothing to prevent the improper procedure of getting the finger on the trigger while drawing.


I normally carry my SIG in a Milt Sparks VM2 for both CC and OC. It keeps the gun tucked in very tightly against my side. I did pick up a Serpa today while I was at Quantico Arms picking up a transfer and am trying it out. I wouldn't use it for CC. The main thing I notice is that the gun sticks out a lot farther from my side; I'm worried about banging it on everything now. With my IWB holster, nobody can get their hand around the grip without my being very aware of it.