Open Carry In Liquor Establishment in Alb.

[N57678]

It is you who are not getting it.

He broke the law by even entering the place at all. It is irrelevant what he did or did not see anyone drinking. Why are you harping on that irrelevant point?

It is irrelevant where he was going or where he came from. He entered an alcohol establishment when he should not have. That is the only point that is relevant. That is the only thing that matters. It was his responsibility to not break the law and enter the place, period.

Why you fail to understand that simple point is beyond me. Technicality? I think not. That's just unbelievable of you to say- it's THE LAW.

I see you as being one of a couple of different types of people. You're either an O-6 or above in the US military, or you hope to become an O-6 in the US military some day (reaching that rank generally beats any sense of reality out of a person and they become slavishly devoted to dotting 'i's and crossing 't's), or you're really an anti-gun internet troll trying to create dissent within the gun-owner community.

All I can say for YOU is that someday when the system has YOU by the ass hopefully they'll be someone like me there trying to talk sense to the wolves who consider personal destruction a "SPORT."

 

[AH.74]

I see you as being one of a couple of different types of people. You're either an O-6 or above in the US military, or you hope to become an O-6 in the US military some day (reaching that rank generally beats any sense of reality out of a person and they become slavishly devoted to dotting 'i's and crossing 't's), or you're really an anti-gun internet troll trying to create dissent within the gun-owner community.

All I can say for YOU is that someday when the system has YOU by the ass hopefully they'll be someone like me there trying to talk sense to the wolves who consider personal destruction a "SPORT."

You are the one who is trolling. I am the one talking about obeying the law as it stands, not as I'd like it to be.

I will not be the one by the ass because I did not bother following the law or knowing what it was. Good luck telling the Judge that the law is a technicality when YOU are arrested for not abiding by the law.

People following your logic are the ones being arrested.

Know the law. Follow it. Or do what you suggest and risk being arrested. It's black and white, not whatever color you say it is.

 

[castiel]

If you're going to go somewhere and want to open or concealed carry and are unsure of the status of the place, a PHONE CALL ahead of time will answer the question.

Whether alcohol was involved, it is not irrelevant if alcohol was in fact present in the establishment for serving purposes.

It is your personal burden as a gun owner to know for yourself what the situation is, not to rely on someone else to make you aware. It is called being smart and responsible.

The gun owner was still at fault for carrying openly into a place that served, regardless of the place's name.

This post pretty much should have ended this thread a long time ago. I fail to see why you all are arguing over whether it's right or wrong to knowingly break a law. Calm down. We are all gun owners here and we all would like it if we could carry our guns everywhere we want. But right now that's not possible without breaking laws. Work on getting the laws changed; arguing with each other gets nowhere.

 

[Badger Johnson]

There are 'laws' and there are guidelines which we all regularly disobey.

When I ride my bike on some streets, I do NOT ride in the 'bike lane'. (in some cities it's mandatory). One reason is that the trash from the streets are in the lane. Another is that the lane may not go where I want to go, or another, the lane is narrower than the normal guideline or there may be parked cars between the lane and the curb (danger-door!).

We do not all stop at redlights before turning right. We do not all cross at the crosswalks, and sometimes we go through a crosswalk when a pedestrian is still two feet from far curb.

So WHY this slavish devotion to other laws like putting your HG in the car before you go into a place that serves alcohol and have a hamburger and a glass of soda? Imagine how dumb you'd feel if you were in the restaurant, disarmed, and a BG comes in and starts shooting. Also imagine how dumb it is to MAKE such a law, with CC illegal, in such places.

Should we follow dumb laws, or laws that are nearly impossible to follow? Or do we not follow these laws ALL THE TIME? Why get all worried about being lawful here when it REALLY matters (life and limb)?

 

[AH.74]

So WHY this slavish devotion to other laws like putting your HG in the car before you go into a place that serves alcohol and have a hamburger and a glass of soda? Imagine how dumb you'd feel if you were in the restaurant, disarmed, and a BG comes in and starts shooting. Also imagine how dumb it is to MAKE such a law, with CC illegal, in such places.

Should we follow dumb laws, or laws that are nearly impossible to follow? Or do we not follow these laws ALL THE TIME? Why get all worried about being lawful here when it REALLY matters (life and limb)?

Imagine how dumb you'd feel if you were reported to the police and brought up on felony charges, just because you felt you could pick and choose what laws are stupid enough to disregard? Do you like the idea of losing your right to carry? Go on and carry a gun illegally into a prohibited place then.

Following the law, regardless of what you think about it, is not "slavish devotion." It is called being responsible and law-abiding.

Don't like disarming? Go somewhere you don't have to. No one is forcing you to go into that alcohol establishment. What's impossible about that?

Agreed, Castiel. I'm done arguing the point about following laws. Let those who choose not to risk the consequences.

 

[NMBill]

Fourth Degree Felony

There are 'laws' and there are guidelines which we all regularly disobey.

When I ride my bike on some streets, I do NOT ride in the 'bike lane'. (in some cities it's mandatory). One reason is that the trash from the streets are in the lane. Another is that the lane may not go where I want to go, or another, the lane is narrower than the normal guideline or there may be parked cars between the lane and the curb (danger-door!).

We do not all stop at redlights before turning right. We do not all cross at the crosswalks, and sometimes we go through a crosswalk when a pedestrian is still two feet from far curb.

So WHY this slavish devotion to other laws like putting your HG in the car before you go into a place that serves alcohol and have a hamburger and a glass of soda? Imagine how dumb you'd feel if you were in the restaurant, disarmed, and a BG comes in and starts shooting. Also imagine how dumb it is to MAKE such a law, with CC illegal, in such places.

Should we follow dumb laws, or laws that are nearly impossible to follow? Or do we not follow these laws ALL THE TIME? Why get all worried about being lawful here when it REALLY matters (life and limb)?

Badger, most of us have knowingly broken a law at some point in time. The difference here is the consequences. Riding a bike outside the bike lane? Possibly a citation and relatively small fine. Likely a warning. Open carry into an establishment, which serves alcohol? This is a fourth degree felony and could carry up to 18 months in prison and a fine up to $5000. And, you would from that day on be a felon with all the ramifications.

You may wish to take that chance. Regardless of what you or I feel about the law, it is a chance I won't take. I normally carry other means of protection in that situation.

 

[N57678]

You are the one who is trolling. I am the one talking about obeying the law as it stands, not as I'd like it to be.

I will not be the one by the ass because I did not bother following the law or knowing what it was. Good luck telling the Judge that the law is a technicality when YOU are arrested for not abiding by the law.

People following your logic are the ones being arrested.

Know the law. Follow it. Or do what you suggest and risk being arrested. It's black and white, not whatever color you say it is.

I'm completely convinced you are a troll. the good news is that it's not going to work. The bad news is what you are doing is against the law - which is perfectly in character for the left ("projection").

If you were really concerned that the law be followed to the letter, you wouldn't be wasting your time here. You'd be DEMANDING that Eric Holder prosecute the Black Panthers for voter intimidation. You'd be DEMANDING that 0bama follow the Florida Federal Judge's ruling and stop implementing 0bamacare. As it stands, he's in contempt of court. You'd want to know who failed to mind the lunatic in the Garcia's Kitchen case and see that he got his meds because he truly is a menace to society. Someone failed there and if the lunatic is released he's likely to hurt someone. Your point is full of holes. It's mindless and it's something only a simpleton would offer.

You don't care about the law or there are plenty of REAL issues that you'd be much more concerned about. That makes you a troll.

 

[N57678]

This post pretty much should have ended this thread a long time ago. I fail to see why you all are arguing over whether it's right or wrong to knowingly break a law. Calm down. We are all gun owners here and we all would like it if we could carry our guns everywhere we want. But right now that's not possible without breaking laws. Work on getting the laws changed; arguing with each other gets nowhere.

I wouldn't make that assumption.

 

[N57678]

There are 'laws' and there are guidelines which we all regularly disobey.

When I ride my bike on some streets, I do NOT ride in the 'bike lane'. (in some cities it's mandatory). One reason is that the trash from the streets are in the lane. Another is that the lane may not go where I want to go, or another, the lane is narrower than the normal guideline or there may be parked cars between the lane and the curb (danger-door!).

We do not all stop at redlights before turning right. We do not all cross at the crosswalks, and sometimes we go through a crosswalk when a pedestrian is still two feet from far curb.

So WHY this slavish devotion to other laws like putting your HG in the car before you go into a place that serves alcohol and have a hamburger and a glass of soda? Imagine how dumb you'd feel if you were in the restaurant, disarmed, and a BG comes in and starts shooting. Also imagine how dumb it is to MAKE such a law, with CC illegal, in such places.

Should we follow dumb laws, or laws that are nearly impossible to follow? Or do we not follow these laws ALL THE TIME? Why get all worried about being lawful here when it REALLY matters (life and limb)?

I agree, but even more to the point.... what if you enter a place and it's not even obvious they serve alcohol? Then, you're attacked by some schizo lunatic who is off his meds and got away from his minder!!!! Then, some anti-gun leftist troll makes posts attacking you as being irresponsible and saying how you deserve to be in jail for it.

Good Gawd!

 

[PracticalTactical]

Now I think you are not only being ridiculous but also stupid.

It is not discrimination because that person can CHOOSE not to open carry in a place it is illegal to do so. A person CANNOT choose their skin color.

Just because a law is not well-known, it is still no excuse to not be aware of it. Just because a place does not post a sign is not a reason for the person to remain unaware of the illegal, criminal nature of entry.

Intention is irrelevant with regard to WHAT THE LAW SAYS, in this matter. No open carry in certain places, period. Intent does not matter, period.

Just because you think a law is unethical and unfair does not mean it is any less valid. Your comparison of the speed law is very predictable, I almost knew you would use that. The officer's explanation is the same- it's your responsibility to operate within the law regardless of what that law is.

Now you are just being insulting. Personal attacks and name calling -- how mature.

I have logical rebuttals for everything you said, but I choose to not waste my time arguing with somebody who can't show any respect.

 

[AH.74]

Now you are just being insulting. Personal attacks and name calling -- how mature.

I have logical rebuttals for everything you said, but I choose to not waste my time arguing with somebody who can't show any respect.

I said you're being stupid. That's not name-calling, it's my observation because I think it's true. I do not normally ever say anything like that but in this case it's called for.

I'm completely convinced you are a troll. the good news is that it's not going to work. The bad news is what you are doing is against the law - which is perfectly in character for the left ("projection").

N57678, you are a complete and utter fool. I've belonged to this forum for well over 2 years, newbie.

 

[PracticalTactical]

For the record, I do agree that the guy's arrest was legal. I don't advocate violating the law, but at the same time the law should be easy enough to follow that even a caveman could do it (my apologies to any cavemen on opencarry

I just think the law should be more straightforward so people don't inadvertently become felons.

At the very least they should require that liquor license holders post it in an obvious manner.

What's so stupid about that?

 

[AH.74]

For the record, I do agree that the guy's arrest was legal. I don't advocate violating the law, but at the same time the law should be easy enough to follow that even a caveman could do it (my apologies to any cavemen on opencarry

I just think the law should be more straightforward so people don't inadvertently become felons.

At the very least they should require that liquor license holders post it in an obvious manner.

What's so stupid about that?

What I thought was stupid is the notion that gun owners are discriminated against because open carry is banned from any alcohol establishments. That concept really makes no sense to me, at all.

And for the last time I will state that the law cannot be any simpler- no open carry in any alcohol establishment. That is very simple and straightforward. If you can't comprehend that, you shouldn't be carrying firearms. The general "you", not you specifically.

 

[PracticalTactical]

What I thought was stupid is the notion that gun owners are discriminated against because open carry is banned from any alcohol establishments. That concept really makes no sense to me, at all.

And for the last time I will state that the law cannot be any simpler- no open carry in any alcohol establishment. That is very simple and straightforward. If you can't comprehend that, you shouldn't be carrying firearms. The general "you", not you specifically.

All right let's just shelve the discrimination issue for now.

My argument for complexity stems from the frequent violations of people who don't know the law. I'm guessing that from their perspective they just hear that it's a open carry state and therefore restaurants and bars are OK. Add to that the many other open carry states where that's the case.

My solution to simplify the situation would be to either allow open carry in such places (not politically feasible at the moment), or to require big signs at the entrances to such places and disallow prosecution if the signs weren't properly posted, and then fine the business for not posting.

That way there would be no making felons out of harmless people.

What say you to that?

 

[AH.74]

All right let's just shelve the discrimination issue for now.

My argument for complexity stems from the frequent violations of people who don't know the law. I'm guessing that from their perspective they just hear that it's a open carry state and therefore restaurants and bars are OK. Add to that the many other open carry states where that's the case.

My solution to simplify the situation would be to either allow open carry in such places (not politically feasible at the moment), or to require big signs at the entrances to such places and disallow prosecution if the signs weren't properly posted, and then fine the business for not posting.

That way there would be no making felons out of harmless people.

What say you to that?

I appreciate your response.

What I say to that is- it is the people who are the problem, not the laws or the lack of posting requirements. People who think it's ok to carry guns without thoroughly researching the laws and being aware of everything required and involved is the heart of the matter.

A simple call to the state or visit to a website seems to be too much for some people to be concerned with.

And I will also say that these people, who do not know the laws regarding prohibited locations, also will not know the laws regarding appropriate use of deadly force. These are the people who will use their handguns in unjustifiable situations and have bad shoots. These people are dangerous, not harmless.

 

[PracticalTactical]

I appreciate your response.

What I say to that is- it is the people who are the problem, not the laws or the lack of posting requirements. People who think it's ok to carry guns without thoroughly researching the laws and being aware of everything required and involved is the heart of the matter.

A simple call to the state or visit to a website seems to be too much for some people to be concerned with.

And I will also say that these people, who do not know the laws regarding prohibited locations, also will not know the laws regarding appropriate use of deadly force. These are the people who will use their handguns in unjustifiable situations and have bad shoots. These people are dangerous, not harmless.

I'll definitely concede the point about bad shoots.

My mistake (which being an instructor is rapidly correcting) is assuming that everybody knows how to use firearms, in both the physical and legal sense.

Coming from a background where everybody you know is way into firearms does that to you

 

[N57678]

N57678, you are a complete and utter fool. I've belonged to this forum for well over 2 years, newbie.

Oh, so your post total adds to your credibility and makes your case for you?

LOL

Makes about as much sense as anything else you've said.

 

[N57678]

For the record, I do agree that the guy's arrest was legal. I don't advocate violating the law, but at the same time the law should be easy enough to follow that even a caveman could do it (my apologies to any cavemen on opencarry

I just think the law should be more straightforward so people don't inadvertently become felons.

At the very least they should require that liquor license holders post it in an obvious manner.

What's so stupid about that?

You're exactly right.

Look, let's say someone is open carrying and unknowingly violates the law. They then meet the guy in this video and end up being arrested for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA1hyqA6UTY&feature=player_embedded


LOL

This is pretty close to what happened in Garcia's.

 

[N57678]

And I will also say that these people, who do not know the laws regarding prohibited locations, also will not know the laws regarding appropriate use of deadly force. These are the people who will use their handguns in unjustifiable situations and have bad shoots. These people are dangerous, not harmless.

Yeah, good thought.

Anyone unknowingly violates the law in a case like this is liable to run through the streets gunning down innocent people! Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Good thought.

This is EXACTLY the kind of post an anti-gun troll would make.

 

[PracticalTactical]

I think this thread is rapidly going down hill, like a smartphone to the urinal....