**patriot act rejected**

[Kryteon]

1: you mentioned "roving wire taps" that is (just by the numbers) is one area it has effected my life. I'd like to add that I know this implies so much in as " well why would you care, if you have nothing to hide" I dont, and intend to keep it that way. Its not the point of hiding anything. It is that I feel this is any example you can see and touch of how Gov. Encroches on your life. I will list examles if needed?

2: am I willing to accept responsability? Yes I am. I feel an obligation to do so. I also feel the same about big government taking away civil protectors like Habeous Corpus. (Wich was not set to "sunset" yet...I.e. still by by..)

3: first. Its not just islamic extreamists......load of poo.....secondly I would help to pas legislation barring extremist from entering the U.S. entirerly. And the people that are know to be "homegrown" i'd alreadry have recived promission from a Judge to survielle them. Do some reserch on these "terror plots" that the F.B.I. thworted....by entrapment ( self omitted ) or why eyewitness's have come forth to testify that the witnessed a State Dartment Official ushering this bomber threw security.... these witnesses are lawers...they understand the ramifications of lying under oath and perjuring a police statment ect... or how the Portland Or. X-mas tree bomber was supplied the bomb and detination device....the F.B.I. statment stated that exactly.....

So where is your leg to stand on now? Don't get me wrong....I like pirates

And I hope that you know that this only comes from a well intentiond place. We are all gentelmen here. So pleas don't take any of this personal either.

1. Having nothing to hide is not the issue, that's why I didn't mention it. You did. It's widely known that terrorists switch cell phones often. The Patriot Act allows roving wire taps under very stringent conditions.

2. By personal responsibility for the consequences, I was talking about personal responsibility for innocent lives lost in a terror attack because the Patriot Act was repealed. It's small comfort to the families of the victims that their phones aren't being tapped but they're loved ones are dead.

3. I said Islamic extremists and OTHER terrorists. Not just Jhadists. I'll see your antecdotes and raise you two more. If we play the game of anecdotal one-upmanship we'll never get anywhere. While I agree with some of your ideas for stopping terror attacks on the U.S. they leave way to many holes and gaps in our defenses.

Still standing on both legs. Thanks for asking!

I have a thick skin. I don't take anything written on the Internet personally. The one who gets personal first.... loses.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Kryteon

 

[HandyHamlet]

I
http://www.askheritage.org/what-are-the-facts-on-the-patriot-act/

The link you provided has a huge ad hawking memberships and talking heads.

Propaganda is lame.

 

[Kryteon]

The link you provided has a huge ad hawking memberships and talking heads.

Propaganda is lame.

The Heritage Foundation is a well known and highly read Conservative think tank. But it's only one source of information. There are many others, I just used that link because I assumed (and we know what assumed does) most people here would be familiar with it.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Kryteon

 

[Ruby]

And who watches the watchers?!?

 

[BigIrish]

lol

1. Having nothing to hide is not the issue, that's why I didn't mention it. You did. It's widely known that terrorists switch cell phones often. The Patriot Act allows roving wire taps under very stringent conditions.

2. By personal responsibility for the consequences, I was talking about personal responsibility for innocent lives lost in a terror attack because the Patriot Act was repealed. It's small comfort to the families of the victims that their phones aren't being tapped but they're loved ones are dead.

3. I said Islamic extremists and OTHER terrorists. Not just Jhadists. I'll see your antecdotes and raise you two more. If we play the game of anecdotal one-upmanship we'll never get anywhere. While I agree with some of your ideas for stopping terror attacks on the U.S. they leave way to many holes and gaps in our defenses.

Still standing on both legs. Thanks for asking!

I have a thick skin. I don't take anything written on the Internet personally. The one who gets personal first.... loses.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Kryteon

Lol...I'm glad your skin is thick friend. And that your leg is still in action...I do seceed in respect to mis quotations. Haisty reading.

There are zero condolences you can give a family.

My opinion is that there is ZERO oversight on using WARRENTLESS wire taps.
I feel that threw documents I have read and articals I have read that have helped form MY opinion on the spectrums of what Government agenccies use to clasiffy a "terrorist" is too broud sweeping to include you and I and EVERYONE on this forum as "low level domestic terrorist" its all over they're ( gov ) documents. Opinion. Writtings ect....
And like you say
Its my opinion and I could be wrong.

And I won't try to one up'ya anymore either.

I do thow urge you to, wile doing reserch; use multipul sources and view points. I feel it is the only way to conduct a educated, sientific form of forming AN opinion on a subject.
I've enjoyed our banter, it has been a good conversation

please excuse typos...on my phone

 

[HandyHamlet]

The Heritage Foundation is a well known and highly read Conservative think tank. But it's only one source of information. There are many others, I just used that link because I assumed (and we know what assumed does) most people here would be familiar with it.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Kryteon

"Think tank" with an ad containing talking heads is an oxymoron.

 

[Kryteon]

Lol...I'm glad your skin is thick friend. And that your leg is still in action...I do seceed in respect to mis quotations. Haisty reading.

There are zero condolences you can give a family.

My opinion is that there is ZERO oversight on using WARRENTLESS wire taps.
I feel that threw documents I have read and articals I have read that have helped form MY opinion on the spectrums of what Government agenccies use to clasiffy a "terrorist" is too broud sweeping to include you and I and EVERYONE on this forum as "low level domestic terrorist" its all over they're ( gov ) documents. Opinion. Writtings ect....
And like you say
Its my opinion and I could be wrong.

And I won't try to one up'ya anymore either.

I do thow urge you to, wile doing reserch; use multipul sources and view points. I feel it is the only way to conduct a educated, sientific form of forming AN opinion on a subject.
I've enjoyed our banter, it has been a good conversation

please excuse typos...on my phone

I couldn't agree more about multiple sources. Although I've done the range from Karl Marx to F.A. Hayek, from Sual Alinsky to Mark Levin, I admit I tend to read more conservative writers than liberal, so my view is definitely aimed to the "right". So jerking the trigger puts me right on target

We'll have to disagree on oversight. If there was none, we would never know about the cases you mentioned. I understand the arguement that suggests "If this is the abuse we know, what abuses DON'T we know?" The problem with that question is, it's impossible to answer. Power is always abused to some degree. That's why it's good to intelligently limit it. Fortunately we have a lot of people watching. I think the advantages of the Patriot Act outweigh the disadvantages. Lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

We would probably both agree that there is corruption and abuse in the Police Force. I doubt we would want to abolish them.

I enjoy having my views challenged. If they can't hold up to scruitiny, I have to change them.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Kryteon

 

[sudden valley gunner]

1. Having nothing to hide is not the issue, that's why I didn't mention it. You did. It's widely known that terrorists switch cell phones often. The Patriot Act allows roving wire taps under very stringent conditions.

It is a huge issue when our founders started this country they had plenty to hide form Britain and they wanted to make sure our government didn't have the ability to just pry into peoples live.

This statement bugs me on so many levels. And I see many of those who are LEO and super pro LEO using this same statement. This is a propaganda tool, to make sure us sheep fall in line. I am going to assume you are a "conservative" person, or what our current administration would call a "right winger". What if they suddenly made huge bold moves to communism? (Really just imagine {sarcasm})You don't think you might have some things to hide at that point? In their viewpoint you shouldn't. What Act do you think they would use against you?

2. By personal responsibility for the consequences, I was talking about personal responsibility for innocent lives lost in a terror attack because the Patriot Act was repealed. It's small comfort to the families of the victims that their phones aren't being tapped but they're loved ones are dead.

Ahhh so give up liberty for safety, gotcha.

3. I said Islamic extremists and OTHER terrorists. Not just Jhadists. I'll see your antecdotes and raise you two more. If we play the game of anecdotal one-upmanship we'll never get anywhere. While I agree with some of your ideas for stopping terror attacks on the U.S. they leave way to many holes and gaps in our defenses.

See the blue after two.

Kryteon

Nothing personal but this is why I feel we can't really support the fake right either, both sides want to sacrifice our constitutional values for their ideals.

 

[Kryteon]

Nothing personal but this is why I feel we can't really support the fake right either, both sides want to sacrifice our constitutional values for their ideals.

1. I guess I'm not making myself clear. I DO NOT agree with the argument that IT IS OKAY to give up your privacy if you have nothing to hide.

We still need a mechanism to stop terrorist from plotting and planning to kill us. How would we accomplish that? I'm not asking what you don't support. I'm asking what you WOULD DO. I'm asking are you willing to personally tell the victims families that you're sorry their loved ones are dead, but at least nobody can listen to your private phone conversations.

Whether I'm a conservative or a liberal has nothing to do with anything. I may be a raving lunatic

2. What liberty do we no longer have, that we DID have before the Patriot Act. And, I'm specifically addressing the three provisions that were repealed (expired).

3. See the smiley face at the end of 1 above.

I have no idea what you mean by "fake right". Maybe it's somebody that doesn't pass the test. I don't know but that's a discussion for another thread.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Kryteon

 

[HandyHamlet]

We still need a mechanism to stop terrorist from plotting and planning to kill us. How would we accomplish that?

Private Security, Police, State Police, FBI, CIA, NSA, Army, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard, Port Authority, Transit Police, DEA, ATF, Dept of Defense, Boarder Patrol...

 

[Kryteon]

Private Security, Police, State Police, FBI, CIA, NSA, Army, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard, Port Authority, Transit Police, DEA, ATF, Dept of Defense, Boarder Patrol...

1986 - On April 6, a Berlin discotheque bombing killed a Turkish woman and 2 US servicemen and injured 230 people, including more than 50 American servicemen.
1987 - A car bomb exploded outside the back gate of the U.S. Embassy in Rome and mortars were fired at the compound from across the street. One passerby was injured in the attacks.
1988 - On April 14 at 8 p.m., a car bomb exploded in front of the USO Club in Naples, Italy. Five people died and fifteen were injured, including four U.S. servicemen who were injured and US Navy Petty Officer Angela Santos, 21, was killed. Junzo Okudaira, a Japanese Red Army (JRA) member, was indicted in the United States on April 9, 1993 for the Naples bombing. Okudaira is also a suspect in the June 1987 car bombing and mortar attack against the U.S. Embassy in Rome.
1988 - Pan Am Flight 103, outbound from London for New York with 259 people aboard, was destroyed by a bomb on December 21, 1988 while over Lockerbie, Scotland. All aboard the aircraft were killed as were eleven persons on the ground.
1993 - World Trade Center bombing, February 26: 6 killed, 1,042 injured.
1993 - Attack at CIA Headquarters in McLean, Virginia, January 25: 2 killed, 3 injured.
1995 - Killing of two US Diplomats in Pakistan, March 8.
1995 - Oklahoma City bombing, 168 killed, over 800 injured. April 19.
1996 - Khobar Towers bombing: 19 American servicemen killed.
1998 - US embassy bombings: U.S. Kenya Embassy blown up, 214 killed (including 12 Americans); U.S. Tanzania Embassy blown up, 11 killed.
2000 - USS Cole attacked, 17 U.S. Navy sailors killed, 39 sailors injured.
2001 - September 11, 2001 attacks, 2,997 killed;
2002 - Reporter Daniel Pearl, kidnapped and beheaded in Karachi.
2002 - Nine people killed by bomb blast near US embassy in Lima - seen as attempt to disrupt forthcoming visit by President George W. Bush.
2002-2006 - Karachi consulate attacks: three separate attacks killed 18 people (including an American diplomat) and injured 87.
2002 - Two Marines shot, one killed in Kuwait.
2003 - Riyadh Compound Bombings kill 9 Americans, among 35 others.
2003 - Three American diplomats are killed by a roadside bomb targeting their convoy in Gaza. Palestine Resistance Committees, an umbrella organization has taken responsibility for the attack."[1]
2003-present - Damascus terrorist attacks: American interests in Syria targeted by Islamists.
2004 - Civilians Nick Berg, Jack Hensley, and Eugene Armstrong kidnapped and beheaded in Iraq.
2004 - Paul Marshall Johnson, Jr, civilian working in Saudi Arabia, kidnapped and beheaded; five other Americans die in attacks in Saudi Arabia in 2004.
2007 - American embassy attacked in Athens, Greece.
2008 - John Granville, US diplomat, assassinated in Khartoum, Sudan

 

[sudden valley gunner]

{sigh}

 

[virgil47]

1986 - On April 6, a Berlin discotheque bombing killed a Turkish woman and 2 US servicemen and injured 230 people, including more than 50 American servicemen.
1987 - A car bomb exploded outside the back gate of the U.S. Embassy in Rome and mortars were fired at the compound from across the street. One passerby was injured in the attacks.
1988 - On April 14 at 8 p.m., a car bomb exploded in front of the USO Club in Naples, Italy. Five people died and fifteen were injured, including four U.S. servicemen who were injured and US Navy Petty Officer Angela Santos, 21, was killed. Junzo Okudaira, a Japanese Red Army (JRA) member, was indicted in the United States on April 9, 1993 for the Naples bombing. Okudaira is also a suspect in the June 1987 car bombing and mortar attack against the U.S. Embassy in Rome.
1988 - Pan Am Flight 103, outbound from London for New York with 259 people aboard, was destroyed by a bomb on December 21, 1988 while over Lockerbie, Scotland. All aboard the aircraft were killed as were eleven persons on the ground.
1993 - World Trade Center bombing, February 26: 6 killed, 1,042 injured.
1993 - Attack at CIA Headquarters in McLean, Virginia, January 25: 2 killed, 3 injured.
1995 - Killing of two US Diplomats in Pakistan, March 8.
1995 - Oklahoma City bombing, 168 killed, over 800 injured. April 19.
1996 - Khobar Towers bombing: 19 American servicemen killed.
1998 - US embassy bombings: U.S. Kenya Embassy blown up, 214 killed (including 12 Americans); U.S. Tanzania Embassy blown up, 11 killed.
2000 - USS Cole attacked, 17 U.S. Navy sailors killed, 39 sailors injured.
2001 - September 11, 2001 attacks, 2,997 killed;
2002 - Reporter Daniel Pearl, kidnapped and beheaded in Karachi.
2002 - Nine people killed by bomb blast near US embassy in Lima - seen as attempt to disrupt forthcoming visit by President George W. Bush.
2002-2006 - Karachi consulate attacks: three separate attacks killed 18 people (including an American diplomat) and injured 87.
2002 - Two Marines shot, one killed in Kuwait.
2003 - Riyadh Compound Bombings kill 9 Americans, among 35 others.
2003 - Three American diplomats are killed by a roadside bomb targeting their convoy in Gaza. Palestine Resistance Committees, an umbrella organization has taken responsibility for the attack."[1]
2003-present - Damascus terrorist attacks: American interests in Syria targeted by Islamists.
2004 - Civilians Nick Berg, Jack Hensley, and Eugene Armstrong kidnapped and beheaded in Iraq.
2004 - Paul Marshall Johnson, Jr, civilian working in Saudi Arabia, kidnapped and beheaded; five other Americans die in attacks in Saudi Arabia in 2004.
2007 - American embassy attacked in Athens, Greece.
2008 - John Granville, US diplomat, assassinated in Khartoum, Sudan

I guess my question to you would be "why did any of these things happen?" Where was Homeland Security and all of the other alphabet agencies. You see the only people under surveillance are the law abiding citizens for the most part. Sometimes a governmental agency actually catches a bad guy but rarely without creating him first. As they say "even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while".

 

[tobyjones]

Kryteon: thanks for keeping the discussion going even though you're wrong.:lol: It isn't about security, it's about funding.

Since 9/11 how much money has been spent on "security"? The reason this board exists is because for some reason people taking care of themselves are seen as unnatural by some of those who get paid to do it for a living. I believe it was the Heritage foundation whose slogan in the 90's used to be "with freedom come responsibility" on their newsletters.

I want to be empowered to take care of myself and my family not felt up at the airport, wondering who is recording which websites I visit and harassed under the color of law for having the means to protect my myself and my family.

Those who do not value personal responsibility and freedom but feel they have a duty to take the fruits of my labor to try and "keep us safe" are deluding themselves as to their value to our society.

I hope we never have another terrorist attack in this country (or the rest of the world for that matter) but spending more money on security has diminishing returns. Not that the FBI actually needs any silly law on the books to do what they want.
https://www.eff.org/pages/patterns-misconduct-fbi-intelligence-violations

And I wrote to Cathy McMorris (who voted for it last week) and voiced my opposition to the bill.

 

[HandyHamlet]

1986 - On April 6....

Tinfoil hat on.

Okay.

So the hundreds of thousands of people we pay billions of dollars to a year aren't doing their jobs to keep 100% of us safe from freedom hating douchers.

So instead of holding them accountable for their inability to protect us we have to create even more laws, create even more government agencies, more red tape, more propaganda, give up more rights, and pay even more people.

...to do the jobs of the people we will continue to employ in the agencies we already have in place. All while halting the deficit too I'm sure.

Come on in. The cool aid is f-i-n-e!


:lol:

 

[sharkey]

I see all the emotional pleas, you forgot one;

keep it for the children

There are much better ways to stop the terrorist threat. Maybe we should stop policing the world and supporting very bad men. Just a thought.

 

[Kryteon]

Kryteon: thanks for keeping the discussion going even though you're wrong.:lol: It isn't about security, it's about funding.

Since 9/11 how much money has been spent on "security"? The reason this board exists is because for some reason people taking care of themselves are seen as unnatural by some of those who get paid to do it for a living. I believe it was the Heritage foundation whose slogan in the 90's used to be "with freedom come responsibility" on their newsletters.

I want to be empowered to take care of myself and my family not felt up at the airport, wondering who is recording which websites I visit and harassed under the color of law for having the means to protect my myself and my family.

Those who do not value personal responsibility and freedom but feel they have a duty to take the fruits of my labor to try and "keep us safe" are deluding themselves as to their value to our society.

I hope we never have another terrorist attack in this country (or the rest of the world for that matter) but spending more money on security has diminishing returns. Not that the FBI actually needs any silly law on the books to do what they want.
https://www.eff.org/pages/patterns-misconduct-fbi-intelligence-violations

And I wrote to Cathy McMorris (who voted for it last week) and voiced my opposition to the bill.

tobyjones: I couldn't agree more about the TSA. I strongly oppose those policies, and the PC, idiotic, ineffectual way they're applied. I refuse to fly under those conditions.

I also agree about personal responsibility for our own security. That's why I carry. But there's nothing you or I can carry that will protect us from, or warn us of, a terrorist with a dirty bomb or a truck load of fertilizer. We have to rely on others to do that. The Patriot Act provides that proactive protection with safeguards and oversight.

I think funding is a different subject. Not only would I stop funding, but I'd totally dissolve several government agencies. Starting with the Department of Education. It's a matter of priorites. Defending this nation is priority number one.

I'm glad you quoted the Heritage Foundation. I was beginning to think nobody here had ever heard of it. And that was bothersome .

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Kryteon

 

[BigIrish]

Conservitives talking about patriot act

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?deskto...d&feature=player_embedded&v=dmgHf32tMHY&gl=US

 

[sharkey]

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?deskto...d&feature=player_embedded&v=dmgHf32tMHY&gl=US

What does "hot chick pillow fight" have to do with this?

 

[BigIrish]

Not sure what your talking about. I clicked the link and took me right to the video. Rand Paul: patriot act 2/14/2011