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Places that I can OC but not CC?

kmcdowel

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More good news...

Got a letter from (Senator) Michael Prusi. It reads as follows:
"Dear Mr. Mcdowell

My office received your inquiry regarding the legality of a licensed CPL holder to open carry a firearm in "Pistol Free Zones." On Friday we received a copy of your correspondence, as Senator Carl Levin's Office referred your letter to my office because your concerns mainly pertain to state issues. As such, I am happy to assist you in this matter.



My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are licensed a CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter. Apparently, this is a loophole that has been recently identified and no legislation has been proposed to amend it.



I hope this information serves helpful to you, and please do not hesitate to contact my office regarding any other state issue of your concern.

Michael A Prusi

State Senator

38th District"



This may not be enough for some of you to OC in Pistol Free Zones, but a letter from the MSP and a letter from a Senator saying it is legal is more than enough to make me comfortable in doing so. -Kevin


EDIT: ...forgot to spell check. Should be good now.
 

louismacote

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Clearly in his view, this "is a loophole" or a problem. It is obvious that in the state senator from distric 38, openly carrying a firearm legally, is a virus that has not yet been cured from the masses. Too bad. I am sure Mr Levin and his socialist cohorts will move rapidly tofind a vacination for our self dependance and love of liberty.
 

Venator

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The link below is to Michigan firearms law and should be included in your favorites. I like the section on dueling. It also has AG opinions on firearm laws.



The opinion below is in part related to the discussion of whether you can openly carry your firearm with a CPL in firearm free zones. This has to do with private detectives, but as you read the opinion they have no more rights than the average person with a CPL so it could be applied to any non LEO CPL holder. The AG stated that the exemption of CPL holders to carry in restricted zones does not apply and you can not carry any firearm in these areas. This is contrary to the recent MSP opinion that we could.



http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/publications/firearms.pdf





No. 7073 FIREARMS LAWS OF MICHIGAN — OPINIONS OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL 196

Opinion No. 7097

January 11, 2002



CONCEALED WEAPONS: Private investigator carrying concealed pistol in gun-free zones

FIREARMS:

PRIVATE DETECTIVES:

A private investigator licensed to carry a concealed pistol is not, by reason of section 234d of the Michigan Penal Code, exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act.



Honorable Doug Spade

State Representative

The Capitol

Lansing, MI



You have asked whether a private investigator licensed to carry a concealed pistol is, by reason of section 234d of the Michigan Penal Code, exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act. Private investigators are licensed under the Private Detective License Act of 1965, 1965 PA 285, MCL 338.821 et seq. That act does not, however, authorize a private investigator to carry a concealed pistol. In the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act (Act), 1927 PA 372,1 MCL 28.421 et seq, the Legislature has addressed the licensing of persons to carry concealed pistols. Section 5b of the Act contains the requirements for obtaining a license to carry a concealed pistol. Under section 12a, various categories of persons, including peace officers, are made exempt from the requirements of section 5b for obtaining a license to carry a concealed pistol. There is, however, no exemption for private investigators in section 12a or in any other section of the Act. Thus, private investigators may carry concealed pistols only if they are licensed to do so under section 5b of the Act. Once licensed to carry a concealed pistol, private investigators are subject to the Act’s restrictions in the same manner as any other person licensed to carry a concealed pistol. In 2000 PA 381, the Legislature significantly amended the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act. New section 5b of the Act

changed the requirements for obtaining a license to carry a concealed pistol. Under section 5b(7), a county concealed weapon licensing board “shall issue a license to an applicant” who meets the requirements of the Act. Once the board has issued a license, the license holder may, subject to exceptions stated in section 5o, carry a concealed pistol “anywhere in this state.” In section 5o, however, the Legislature enumerated certain so-called gun-free zones, i.e., premises where a person licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall not carry a concealed pistol. Sec. 5o (1) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:



a) A school or school property…

b) A public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency.

c) A sports arena or stadium.

d) A dining room, lounge, or bar area of a premises licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998…This subdivision

shall not apply to an owner or employee of the premises.

e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple or other place of worship, unless

the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of

concealed pistol on that property or facility.

f) An entertainment facility [that has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more].

g) A hospital.

h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university. [Emphasis added.]



Section 5o of the Act expressly prohibits persons licensed under the Act from carrying concealed pistols in the specified gun-free zones.2 Nothing in section 5o or in any other section of the Act exempts private investigators from its prohibitions. A clear and unambiguous statement in a statute must be enforced as written according to its plain meaning. Dean v Dep’t of Corrections, 453 Mich 448, 454; 556 NW2d 458 (1996). In such instances, statutory construction is neither required nor permitted; rather, the court must apply the statutory language as written. Piper v Pettibone Corp, 450 Mich 565, 572; 542 NW2d 269 (1995). Therefore, a person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, even if that person is a licensed private investigator, must obey section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act and shall not carry a concealed pistol in any of the gun-free zones identified in the Act.



This conclusion is not affected by the provisions of section 234d of the Michigan Penal Code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.1 et seq. That statute prohibits certain persons from possessing firearms on certain types of premises as follows:

Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises

of any of the following:

a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

b) A church or other house of religious worship.

c) A court.

d) A theatre.

e) A sports arena.

f) A day care center.

g) A hospital.

h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act,…

(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession

of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

b) A peace officer.

c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity. [Emphasis added.]



By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute. When applied to a private investigator licensed to carry a concealed pistol, there is no inherent conflict between the gun-free zone provisions in section 234d of the Penal Code and those in section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act. The former statute, which prohibits firearms in certain protected zones, does not apply to persons who are licensed to carry a concealed weapon.3 The latter statute, which contains no exemptions, prohibits concealed weapon licensees from carrying a concealed pistol in certain protected gun-free zones. The legislative prohibition in section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act is not

diminished in any way by section 234d of the Penal Code. When statutes govern the same subject matter and are in pari materia, the court must endeavor to construe them harmoniously and to give them reasonable effect. Speaker v State Administrative Bd, 441 Mich 547, 568, 579; 495 NW2d 539 (1993).



It is my opinion, therefore, that a private investigator licensed to carry a concealed pistol is not, by reason of section 234d of the [/b]Michigan[/b] Penal Code, exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing[/b][/b]



1 The Act was significantly revised by amendatory 2000 PA 381.

2 A person with a license to carry a concealed pistol who carries a pistol on premises protected under section 5o(1)(a)-(h) of the Concealed Pistol Licensing

Act is subject to the penalties in section 5o(3)(a)-(c) of the Act. These penalties include fines, license suspension or revocation, and for third time offenders, up to four years’ imprisonment.

 

Jared

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This is NOT a loophole, Lonnie Wilson and I have been saying this for almost 2 years now. A lot of states are like this.

In Wyoming, you can OC almost anywhere you can not otherwise CCW, same for Nebraska, and many other states.

This is not a loophole and this is nothing to be afraid of. This is how people in Virginia realized you could open carry in ABC restaurants/bars. It is a common practice now. Everyone on this forum was afraid of this in Michigan, if people in Virginia were afraid of this then they would not be carrying at all into some places where CCW is prohibited.

If you have a license to carry from ANY state, you can open carry in the pistol free zone areas. People should take advantage of this and they should put pressure on their legislators to NOT change this to ban it.
 

Venator

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Jared wrote:
This is NOT a loophole, Lonnie Wilson and I have been saying this for almost 2 years now. A lot of states are like this.

In Wyoming, you can OC almost anywhere you can not otherwise CCW, same for Nebraska, and many other states.

This is not a loophole and this is nothing to be afraid of. This is how people in Virginia realized you could open carry in ABC restaurants/bars. It is a common practice now. Everyone on this forum was afraid of this in Michigan, if people in Virginia were afraid of this then they would not be carrying at all into some places where CCW is prohibited.

If you have a license to carry from ANY state, you can open carry in the pistol free zone areas. People should take advantage of this and they should put pressure on their legislators to NOT change this to ban it.
Are you familiar with the issue at hand, of the two slightly different firearms free zones we have in Michigan? Of how one makes an exception for CPL holders and the more recent one doesn't?


Thanks for your input, but as you can see from the AG's opinion, shedoesn't agree with you. Is her word law? No, but it would carry some weight in deciding to press charges.

BTW recently The Michigan State Police opined that you could carry in a pistol free zone openly with a CPL. Two so called authorities with opposite opinions...what to do?
 

Venator

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kmcdowel wrote:
exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act.
what issection 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act.?

what is the CPL act?

You have to read the opinion carefully, at first it starts out as if the exemption will stand and does allow carry in the forbidden zones. But read the entire opinion and the last paragraph in bold.

The concealed weapons act is the CPL act.

This is Section 5o: It is the section of the act that restricts certain places from concealed carry.


In section 5o, however, the Legislature enumerated certain so-called gun-free zones, i.e., premises where a person licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall not carry a concealed pistol. Sec. 5o (1) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
 

BB62

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What is completely unclear to me is this: why is a person with permission from the state to CC okay to OC in otherwise "off-limits" places, and yet an unlicensed individualis not?

IOW the the right to keep and bear arms enumerated in the MI state constitution applies only in those places when you have permission to carry in a different manner.

Get where I'm going here?
 

Jared

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Venator wrote:
Jared wrote:
This is NOT a loophole, Lonnie Wilson and I have been saying this for almost 2 years now. A lot of states are like this.

In Wyoming, you can OC almost anywhere you can not otherwise CCW, same for Nebraska, and many other states.

This is not a loophole and this is nothing to be afraid of. This is how people in Virginia realized you could open carry in ABC restaurants/bars. It is a common practice now. Everyone on this forum was afraid of this in Michigan, if people in Virginia were afraid of this then they would not be carrying at all into some places where CCW is prohibited.

If you have a license to carry from ANY state, you can open carry in the pistol free zone areas. People should take advantage of this and they should put pressure on their legislators to NOT change this to ban it.
Are you familiar with the issue at hand, of the two slightly different firearms free zones we have in Michigan? Of how one makes an exception for CPL holders and the more recent one doesn't?


Thanks for your input, but as you can see from the AG's opinion, shedoesn't agree with you. Is her word law? No, but it would carry some weight in deciding to press charges.

BTW recently The Michigan State Police opined that you could carry in a pistol free zone openly with a CPL. Two so called authorities with opposite opinions...what to do?

That is not what the AG said. The PI was asking since there were two sections of law that dealt with gun free zones if he was exempt for concealed carry since one section exempted him.

The AG said that since the CPL "criminal protection zones" forbids concealed carry, he can not carry a concealed firearm in these places.

The AG never said anything about open carry in these places, the issue was avoided.

I did read it carefully and the law is still very clear on the matter. You can open carry almost anywhere in Michigan if you have a license to carry from any state. Although you do need to be licensed under the CPL law to carry in a vehicle.

People should note that the CPL law deals with concealed carry only, it has nothing to do with open carry.
 

kmcdowel

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The concealed weapons act ..
This is Section 5o: It is the section of the act that restricts certain places from concealed carry.


In section 5o, however, the Legislature enumerated certain so-called gun-free zones, i.e., premises where a person licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall not carry a concealed pistol. Sec. 5o (1) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
Where can I see this act in full?
 

Venator

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kmcdowel wrote:
The concealed weapons act ..
This is Section 5o: It is the section of the act that restricts certain places from concealed carry.


In section 5o, however, the Legislature enumerated certain so-called gun-free zones, i.e., premises where a person licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall not carry a concealed pistol. Sec. 5o (1) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
Where can I see this act in full?
I think this is the most recent, with a few changes from the 2001 act.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(vwejdk55e1l45p45an5uhwzf))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=2002-HB-6337
 

Venator

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Jared wrote:
Venator wrote:
Jared wrote:
This is NOT a loophole, Lonnie Wilson and I have been saying this for almost 2 years now. A lot of states are like this.

In Wyoming, you can OC almost anywhere you can not otherwise CCW, same for Nebraska, and many other states.

This is not a loophole and this is nothing to be afraid of. This is how people in Virginia realized you could open carry in ABC restaurants/bars. It is a common practice now. Everyone on this forum was afraid of this in Michigan, if people in Virginia were afraid of this then they would not be carrying at all into some places where CCW is prohibited.

If you have a license to carry from ANY state, you can open carry in the pistol free zone areas. People should take advantage of this and they should put pressure on their legislators to NOT change this to ban it.
Are you familiar with the issue at hand, of the two slightly different firearms free zones we have in Michigan? Of how one makes an exception for CPL holders and the more recent one doesn't?


Thanks for your input, but as you can see from the AG's opinion, shedoesn't agree with you. Is her word law? No, but it would carry some weight in deciding to press charges.

BTW recently The Michigan State Police opined that you could carry in a pistol free zone openly with a CPL. Two so called authorities with opposite opinions...what to do?

That is not what the AG said. The PI was asking since there were two sections of law that dealt with gun free zones if he was exempt for concealed carry since one section exempted him.

The AG said that since the CPL "criminal protection zones" forbids concealed carry, he can not carry a concealed firearm in these places.

The AG never said anything about open carry in these places, the issue was avoided.

I did read it carefully and the law is still very clear on the matter. You can open carry almost anywhere in Michigan if you have a license to carry from any state. Although you do need to be licensed under the CPL law to carry in a vehicle.

People should note that the CPL law deals with concealed carry only, it has nothing to do with open carry.
Good point, which I missed. She did say that a CPL does exempt you from the gun free zones via 234d exemption. She did avoid the open carry option, which from the opinion would be allowed with a CPL. This gets better and better.
 

SpringerXDacp

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750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty. Sec. 234d.
(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
(b) A church or other house of religious worship.
(c) A court.
(d) A theatre.
(e) A sports arena.
(f) A day care center.
(g) A hospital.
(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
(a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
(b) A peace officer.
(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.


Other than (f) A day care center, why does 234d not mention schools? Specifically: K-12.

Do these Acts come into play for K-12,even if you OC with CPL?
Gun Control Act of 1968,including the Gun-Free School Zones Act, 18 V.S.C. § 922(q). The Gun-Free School Zones Act provides that itis unlawful for any individual to knowingly possess or discharge a firearm in a place that the individual knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a school zone
 

Venator

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kmcdowel wrote:
More good news...

Got a letter from (Senator) Michael Prusi. It reads as follows:
"Dear Mr. Mcdowell

My office received your inquiry regarding the legality of a licensed CPL holder to open carry a firearm in "Pistol Free Zones." On Friday we received a copy of your correspondence, as Senator Carl Levin's Office referred your letter to my office because your concerns mainly pertain to state issues. As such, I am happy to assist you in this matter.



My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are licensed a CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter. Apparently, this is a loophole that has been recently identified and no legislation has been proposed to amend it.



I hope this information serves helpful to you, and please do not hesitate to contact my office regarding any other state issue of your concern.

Michael A Prusi

State Senator

38th District"
This may not be enough for some of you to OC in Pistol Free Zones, but a letter from the MSP and a letter from a Senator saying it is legal is more than enough to make me comfortable in doing so. -Kevin
We really have three opinions now. I have listed your good work on this as well as an AG's opinion that states the same interpretation. The problem is that most of the places listed in 234d areprivate property and can ban guns at will. I would love to find a bar owner in the Lansing area that would allow open carry in his bar. Thank you Mr. McDowell for your good work.

A summary for those that would like to print the three opinions.

THE QUESTION THAT WAS ASKED.

I have a question regarding the open carry of firearms by a CPL holder. It seems as if there are two relevant Michigan laws: MCL 28.425o and MCL 750.234d.


MCL 28.425o prohibits concealed carry in certain areas (i.e., Day Care, school, sports arena, bar, church, An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500, hospital and dorm.) Note, this just prohibits concealed carry, not open carry.

MCL 750.234d prohibits possession of firearms in certain areas (i.e., bank, church, court, theatre, sports arena, day care, hospital or bar). The statutes also states, “This section does not apply to any of the following: (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” This statute then, does not apply to me, as I am a CPL holder.


Neither of the previous statutes prohibits open carry by a CPL holder in “Pistol Free Zone.” Based upon this (and the assumptions that there are no Michigan laws I am overlooking), it seems as if I open carry in the Pistol Free Zones I would not be breaking any laws. Is this correct?

I greatly appreciate you taking the time to clarify this with me.

Sincerely, -KM

RESPONSES TO THE QUESTION:[/b]
1)

Mr. McDowell,

Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.

Sincerely,
Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police
Executive Resource Section, 714 S. Harrison Rd.
East Lansing, MI 48823
(517) 336-6441
2)

Dear Mr. M

My office received your inquiry regarding the legality of a licensed CPL holder to open carry a firearm in "Pistol Free Zones." On Friday we received a copy of your correspondence, as Senator Carl Levin's Office referred your letter to my office because your concerns mainly pertain to state issues. As such, I am happy to assist you in this matter.

My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are licensed a CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter. Apparently, this is a loophole that has been recently identified and no legislation has been proposed to amend it.

I hope this information serves helpful to you, and please do not hesitate to contact my office regarding any other state issue of your concern.

Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District"
3)

The opinion below is in part related to the discussion of whether you can openly carry your firearm with a CPL in firearm free zones. This has to do with private detectives, but as you read the opinion they have no more rights than the average person with a CPL so it could be applied to any non LEO CPL holder. The AG stated that the exemption of CPL holders to carry openly in restricted zones does apply and you can carry a firearm openly in these areas.

No. 7073 FIREARMS LAWS OF MICHIGAN — OPINIONS OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL 196

Opinion No. 7097

January 11, 2002

CONCEALED WEAPONS: Private investigator carrying concealed pistol in gun-free zones

FIREARMS:

PRIVATE DETECTIVES:

A private investigator licensed to carry a concealed pistol is not, by reason of section 234d of the Michigan Penal Code, exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act.

Honorable Doug Spade
State Representative


You have asked whether a private investigator licensed to carry a concealed pistol is, by reason of section 234d of the Michigan Penal Code, exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act. Private investigators are licensed under the Private Detective License Act of 1965, 1965 PA 285, MCL 338.821 et seq. That act does not, however, authorize a private investigator to carry a concealed pistol. In the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act (Act), 1927 PA 372,1 MCL 28.421 et seq, the Legislature has addressed the licensing of persons to carry concealed pistols. Section 5b of the Act contains the requirements for obtaining a license to carry a concealed pistol. Under section 12a, various categories of persons, including peace officers, are made exempt from the requirements of section 5b for obtaining a license to carry a concealed pistol. There is, however, no exemption for private investigators in section 12a or in any other section of the Act. Thus, private investigators may carry concealed pistols only if they are licensed to do so under section 5b of the Act. Once licensed to carry a concealed pistol, private investigators are subject to the Act’s restrictions in the same manner as any other person licensed to carry a concealed pistol. In 2000 PA 381, the Legislature significantly amended the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act. New section 5b of the Act changed the requirements for obtaining a license to carry a concealed pistol. Under section 5b(7), a county concealed weapon licensing board “shall issue a license to an applicant” who meets the requirements of the Act. Once the board has issued a license, the license holder may, subject to exceptions stated in section 5o, carry a concealed pistol “anywhere in this state.” In section 5o, however, the Legislature enumerated certain so-called gun-free zones, i.e., premises where a person licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall not carry a concealed pistol. Sec. 5o (1) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

a) A school or school property…
b) A public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency.
c) A sports arena or stadium.
d) A dining room, lounge, or bar area of a premises licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998…This subdivision shall not apply to an owner or employee of the premises.
e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of
concealed pistol on that property or facility.
f) An entertainment facility [that has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more].
g) A hospital.
h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university. [Emphasis added.]


Section 5o of the Act expressly prohibits persons licensed under the Act from carrying concealed pistols in the specified gun-free zones.2 Nothing in section 5o or in any other section of the Act exempts private investigators from its prohibitions. A clear and unambiguous statement in a statute must be enforced as written according to its plain meaning. Dean v Dep’t of Corrections, 453 Mich 448, 454; 556 NW2d 458 (1996). In such instances, statutory construction is neither required nor permitted; rather, the court must apply the statutory language as written. Piper v Pettibone Corp, 450 Mich 565, 572; 542 NW2d 269 (1995). Therefore, a person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, even if that person is a licensed private investigator, must obey section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act and shall not carry a concealed pistol in any of the gun-free zones identified in the Act.

This conclusion is not affected by the provisions of section 234d of the Michigan Penal Code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.1 et seq. That statute prohibits certain persons from possessing firearms on certain types of premises as follows: Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
b) A church or other house of religious worship.
c) A court.
d) A theatre.
e) A sports arena.
f) A day care center.
g) A hospital.
h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act,…


(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
b) A peace officer.
c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity. [Emphasis added.]

By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by [/b]section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.[/b]When applied to a private investigator licensed to carry a concealed pistol, there is no inherent conflict between the gun-free zone provisions in section 234d of the Penal Code and those in section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act. The former

statute, which prohibits firearms in certain protected zones, does not apply to persons who are licensed to carry a concealed weapon.3 The latter statute, which contains no exemptions, prohibits concealed weapon licensees from carrying a concealed pistol in certain protected gun-free zones. The legislative prohibition in section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act is not diminished in any way by section 234d of the Penal Code. When statutes govern the same subject matter and are in pari materia, the court must endeavor to construe them harmoniously and to give them reasonable effect. Speaker v State Administrative Bd, 441 Mich 547, 568, 579; 495 NW2d 539 (1993).

It is my opinion, therefore, that a private investigator licensed to carry a concealed pistol is not, by reason of section 234d of the Michigan Penal Code, exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing

1 The Act was signicantly revised by amendatory 2000 PA 381.
2 A person with a license to carry a concealed pistol who carries a pistol on premises protected under section 5o(1)(a)-(h) of the Concealed Pistol Licensing
Act is subject to the penalties in section 5o(3)(a)-(c) of the Act. These penalties include fines, license suspension or revocation, and for third time offenders, up to four years’ imprisonment.
 

BB62

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Wow.

That's a lot of legal mumbo-jumbo.

Do you care to summarize the third point (or how the three opinions agree/disagree)?

Thanks for your efforts.

Wow. Again.
 

Venator

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BB62 wrote:
Wow.

That's a lot of legal mumbo-jumbo.

Do you care to summarize the third point (or how the three opinions agree/disagree)?

Thanks for your efforts.

Wow. Again.

Look at the underlined part of the opinion. The AG opinion in part states that if you have a CPL you can have a firearm in the areas listed in 234d, but not concealed, well by default she means openly.

That is what the MSP and the Senator said as well.
 

Leader

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Venator....,.

Your 3rd point deals with "PRIVATE DETECTIVES" and does NOT apply to most of us.

Although the laws are the same for us as too open carry. The PI license gives the PI the option of carrying consealed in places we can't.
 

BB62

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Leader wrote:
Venator....,.

Your 3rd point deals with "PRIVATE DETECTIVES" and does NOT apply to most of us.

Although the laws are the same for us as too open carry. The PI license gives the PI the option of carrying consealed in places we can't.

Yea, but then you have this:

"It is my opinion, therefore, that a private investigator licensed to carry a concealed pistol is not, by reason of section 234d of the Michigan Penal Code, exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing."
 

kmcdowel

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Marquette, Michigan, USA
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Browsing the MSP's website today and found the following information intresting...


A. Under Federal law, firearms are also restricted in federal facilities. A federal facility means "a building or part thereof owned or leased by the federal government, where federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties." This includes facilities such as post offices and federal courts. What other facilities do we need to avoid in Michigan?

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]2. I work as a security guard. Does my profession entitle me to carry a concealed pistol without a license in Michigan as required by my employer?
MCL 750.227 No. You can onlycarry a pistol while on duty on the premises of your employer and onlyif it is exposed.[/font] You can only carry while on duty and on the premises of your employer? This seems false to me. Perhaps it warrants another email to the MSP.

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]3. Do I need a concealed pistol permit to carry my pistols while walking through the woods near my cabin in Michigan? If not, are there any restrictions on how or where the gun is carried?[/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]MCL 750.227 allows you to carry a pistol concealed or not if you are in your own home or on your own property. If you do not own the land, no license is needed to carry a pistol as long as it is exposed. However, should a person cover the pistol during inclement weather with a jacket or coat or get into a vehicle, the pistol would be concealed, and the carrier would place himself in jeopardy unless he possessed a concealed pistol permit. Per Attorney General's opinion #3158 dated February 14, 1945, a holster, in plain view, is not considered concealed. Department of Natural Resources regulations require a person to have a valid Michigan hunting license if in an area inhabited by wildlife, while in possession of a firearm.[/font]

...Just thought I'd add this, as it tells OC is legal.



[font="Arial, Helvetica"]6. What are the steps necessary to purchase and legally possess a pistol in Michigan without a concealed pistol license?[/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]MCL 28.422 & MCL 28.429 The prospective purchaser must successfully pass (70% or more) a basic pistol safety questionnaire and obtain a License to Purchase, which is valid for 10 days, from the local law enforcement agency. The purchaser must sign a notarized sworn statement that they meet the Michigan qualifications to purchase/obtain a pistol. At the time of the purchase, the purchaser and the seller complete the form. The License to Purchase, along with the pistol, must be returned to the local law enforcement agency within 10 days to obtain a Safety Inspection Certificate (registration).[/font]

Is this stating that if one wants to OC and doesn't have a CPL they must pass the questionnaire? Seems like more misinformation, and the "and legally possess" part of the question should be removed.



[font="Arial, Helvetica"]10. I have just moved to Michigan from another state. How much time do I have to register my pistols?[/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]MCL 28.422 & MCL 28.429 Upon establishing legal residency, you should immediately contact your local law enforcement agency, pass the basic safety questionnaire, and complete both a License to Purchase and Safety Inspection Certificate.[/font]

This question doesn't even mentioning purchase, and states that one must pass the questionnaire, complete a license to purchase, and safety inspection. If someone wants to OC must they register their pistol?



[font="Arial, Helvetica"]9. Dopellet pistols have to be registered? [/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]MCL 28.421 Although, there is an occasional misconception that pellet pistols only require registration if they are over .177 caliber, that caliber designation only applies to guns made exclusively for propelling BB's. A pellet pistol, does fall under the definition of a firearm, and is subject to all License to Purchase, Safety Inspection Certificate and Concealed Pistol License requirements.[/font]

Go and register your pellet pistols!



[font="Arial, Helvetica"]3. Is it okay if I loan my pistol to a friend? [/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]MCL 28.432 An individual can carry, possess, use or transport a pistol belonging to another individual, if the pistol is properly licensed and inspected under the Act, and the individual carrying, possessing, using or transporting the pistol has obtained a license to carry a pistol concealed permit from Michigan[/font]

A whole 'nother issue...what if the person borrowing does not want to carry concealed?



[font="Arial, Helvetica"][/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]B. A pistol is subject to immediate seizure if the CCW permit holder is carrying a pistol in a "pistol free" area. The following penalties may also be imposed:[/font]



  • [font="Arial, Helvetica"]First offense: State Civil Infraction, $500 fine, CCW permit suspended 6 months[/font]
  • [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Second offense: 90-day misdemeanor, $1000 fine, CCW permit revoked[/font]
  • [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Third and subsequent offenses: 4-year felony, $5000 fine, CCW permit revoked[/font]
  • This does not say "subject to immediate seizure if the CCW permit holder is carrying a concealed pistol in a ..." More misinformation that the MSP should correct?


[url]http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10953--,00.html#INFORMATION_FOR_CPL_HOLDERS[/url]

 

Leader

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Messages
274
Location
Livingston Co., Michigan, , USA
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kmcdowel wrote:
Browsing the MSP's website today and found the following information intresting...


A. Under Federal law, firearms are also restricted in federal facilities. A federal facility means "a building or part thereof owned or leased by the federal government, where federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties." This includes facilities such as post offices and federal courts. What other facilities do we need to avoid in Michigan? U.S.Customs


[font="Arial, Helvetica"]2. I work as a security guard. Does my profession entitle me to carry a concealed pistol without a license in Michigan as required by my employer?
MCL 750.227 No. You can onlycarry a pistol while on duty on the premises of your employer and onlyif it is exposed.[/font] You can only carry while on duty and on the premises of your employer? This seems false to me. Perhaps it warrants another email to the MSP. He is asking about "a concealed pistol"

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]3. Do I need a concealed pistol permit to carry my pistols while walking through the woods near my cabin in Michigan? If not, are there any restrictions on how or where the gun is carried?[/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]MCL 750.227 allows you to carry a pistol concealed or not if you are in your own home or on your own property. If you do not own the land, no license is needed to carry a pistol as long as it is exposed. However, should a person cover the pistol during inclement weather with a jacket or coat or get into a vehicle, the pistol would be concealed, and the carrier would place himself in jeopardy unless he possessed a concealed pistol permit. Per Attorney General's opinion #3158 dated February 14, 1945, a holster, in plain view, is not considered concealed. Department of Natural Resources regulations require a person to have a valid Michigan hunting license if in an area inhabited by wildlife, while in possession of a firearm.[/font]


...Just thought I'd add this, as it tells OC is legal.



[font="Arial, Helvetica"]6. What are the steps necessary to purchase and legally possess a pistol in Michigan without a concealed pistol license?[/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]MCL 28.422 & MCL 28.429 The prospective purchaser must successfully pass (70% or more) a basic pistol safety questionnaire and obtain a License to Purchase, which is valid for 10 days, from the local law enforcement agency. The purchaser must sign a notarized sworn statement that they meet the Michigan qualifications to purchase/obtain a pistol. At the time of the purchase, the purchaser and the seller complete the form. The License to Purchase, along with the pistol, must be returned to the local law enforcement agency within 10 days to obtain a Safety Inspection Certificate (registration).[/font]

Is this stating that if one wants to OC and doesn't have a CPL they must pass the questionnaire? Seems like more misinformation, and the "and legally possess" part of the question should be removed. It is illegal to possess a handgun in Michigan that has not been properly safety inspected. In order to get a safety inspection, you must first pass the test and get a permit to purchase. You need this no matter how you come into possession of the weapon (buy it, steal it, gift, inherit whatever)



[font="Arial, Helvetica"]10. I have just moved to Michigan from another state. How much time do I have to register my pistols?[/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]MCL 28.422 & MCL 28.429 Upon establishing legal residency, you should immediately contact your local law enforcement agency, pass the basic safety questionnaire, and complete both a License to Purchase and Safety Inspection Certificate.[/font]

This question doesn't even mentioning purchase, and states that one must pass the questionnaire, complete a license to purchase, and safety inspection. If someone wants to OC must they register their pistol? See above.



[font="Arial, Helvetica"]9. Dopellet pistols have to be registered? [/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]MCL 28.421 Although, there is an occasional misconception that pellet pistols only require registration if they are over .177 caliber, that caliber designation only applies to guns made exclusively for propelling BB's. A pellet pistol, does fall under the definition of a firearm, and is subject to all License to Purchase, Safety Inspection Certificate and Concealed Pistol License requirements.[/font]

Go and register your pellet pistols!



[font="Arial, Helvetica"]3. Is it okay if I loan my pistol to a friend? [/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]MCL 28.432 An individual can carry, possess, use or transport a pistol belonging to another individual, if the pistol is properly licensed and inspected under the Act, and the individual carrying, possessing, using or transporting the pistol has obtained a license to carry a pistol concealed permit from Michigan[/font]

A whole 'nother issue...what if the person borrowing does not want to carry concealed?You are required to get a handgun safety inspected if you posses it so you would need a permit to purchase so that would transfer ownership.



[font="Arial, Helvetica"][/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]B. A pistol is subject to immediate seizure if the CCW permit holder is carrying a pistol in a "pistol free" area. The following penalties may also be imposed:[/font]
  • [font="Arial, Helvetica"]First offense: State Civil Infraction, $500 fine, CCW permit suspended 6 months[/font]
  • [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Second offense: 90-day misdemeanor, $1000 fine, CCW permit revoked[/font]
  • [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Third and subsequent offenses: 4-year felony, $5000 fine, CCW permit revoked[/font]
  • This does not say "subject to immediate seizure if the CCW permit holder is carrying a concealed pistol in a ..." More misinformation that the MSP should correct? Nothing said here is actually wrong, just left out a few details.
 
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