kmcdowel
Regular Member
imported post
Done.
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Places that I can OC but not CC?
- Thread starter kmcdowel
- Start date
kmcdowel
Regular Member
imported post
:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate
Drum roll please.........................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................................................................
.......................................................................................... I just checked my E-mail and it was like opening a christmas present. Sgt. Thomas Deasy replied to my e-mail regarding OC by CPL holders in a Pistol Free Zone. If you haven't guessed yet, I've got good news. Here is what he wrote:
:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate
Drum roll please.........................................................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................................................................
.......................................................................................... I just checked my E-mail and it was like opening a christmas present. Sgt. Thomas Deasy replied to my e-mail regarding OC by CPL holders in a Pistol Free Zone. If you haven't guessed yet, I've got good news. Here is what he wrote:
Attachments
Venator
Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
imported post
kmcdowel wrote:
Well done! I stillwould like an AG opinion as well. Don't know if I would want to chance it base on a State Police opinion. But it is definitely a start.
Well done.
kmcdowel wrote:
Well done! I stillwould like an AG opinion as well. Don't know if I would want to chance it base on a State Police opinion. But it is definitely a start.
Well done.
SpringerXDacp
New member
imported post
Venator wrote:
Venator wrote:
agree and agree
Venator
Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
imported post
kmcdowel wrote:
Is he saying that a CPL holder can open carry in a bar????...a court????, a sports arena??? This doesn't sound right to me. I have passed this on to the AG's office and to a firearm attorney I know. I'll let you all know what if anything they may have to say.
kmcdowel wrote:
Is he saying that a CPL holder can open carry in a bar????...a court????, a sports arena??? This doesn't sound right to me. I have passed this on to the AG's office and to a firearm attorney I know. I'll let you all know what if anything they may have to say.
kmcdowel
Regular Member
imported post
Venator wrote:
Not just a bar, court and sports arena, but also a day care, school, church, hospital, college and casino. That's what makes this so exciting. As we have iterated, if there is no law prohibiting it, it is not illegal. That applies here. Please show me the law that prohibits me as a CPL holderfrom OCing in a bar or hospital.
Which brings me to my next point. Sgt Deasy concurs with me/us that I/we, as a CPL holder, can open carry in a dorm or classroom of a college. This means I can OC at will on college campus, right? Except, my college has placed restrictions, banning possession of firearms all together anywhere on campus. This ordinance is however; void...that whole preemption thing. (no reply from my campus 'public saftey' yet regarding this. If I don't receive a reply in 2 days, I will be writing our campus newpaper. Actually, I'll probably write anyways.)
Venator wrote:
Not just a bar, court and sports arena, but also a day care, school, church, hospital, college and casino. That's what makes this so exciting. As we have iterated, if there is no law prohibiting it, it is not illegal. That applies here. Please show me the law that prohibits me as a CPL holderfrom OCing in a bar or hospital.
Which brings me to my next point. Sgt Deasy concurs with me/us that I/we, as a CPL holder, can open carry in a dorm or classroom of a college. This means I can OC at will on college campus, right? Except, my college has placed restrictions, banning possession of firearms all together anywhere on campus. This ordinance is however; void...that whole preemption thing. (no reply from my campus 'public saftey' yet regarding this. If I don't receive a reply in 2 days, I will be writing our campus newpaper. Actually, I'll probably write anyways.)
Venator
Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
imported post
kmcdowel wrote:
kmcdowel wrote:
The college can make a policy on students/staff prohibiting firearms, which would be enforced with the students expulsion/or staffs dismissal. But no laws would be broken. They could not enforce the policy on visitors.
Leader
Regular Member
imported post
Venator wrote:
You should also keep in mind any and all FEDERAL laws.....
[align=left]As you know, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms[/align]
[align=left]enforces the provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968,[/align]
[align=left]including the Gun-Free School Zones Act, 18 V.S.C.[/align]
[align=left]§ 922(q). The Gun-Free School Zones Act provides that it[/align]
[align=left]is unlawful for any individual to knowingly possess or[/align]
[align=left]discharge a firearm in a place that the individual knows or[/align]
[align=left]has reasonable cause to believe is a school zone, if the[/align]
firearm has moved
Venator wrote:
You should also keep in mind any and all FEDERAL laws.....
[align=left]As you know, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms[/align]
[align=left]enforces the provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968,[/align]
[align=left]including the Gun-Free School Zones Act, 18 V.S.C.[/align]
[align=left]§ 922(q). The Gun-Free School Zones Act provides that it[/align]
[align=left]is unlawful for any individual to knowingly possess or[/align]
[align=left]discharge a firearm in a place that the individual knows or[/align]
[align=left]has reasonable cause to believe is a school zone, if the[/align]
firearm has moved
Venator
Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
imported post
Leader wrote:
I think most of this has been overrule in the mid 1990's. Something about interstate travel, etc... And in any case that law dealt with K-12 schools not colleges.
http://law.jrank.org/pages/12812/United-States-v-Lopez.html
Leader wrote:
I think most of this has been overrule in the mid 1990's. Something about interstate travel, etc... And in any case that law dealt with K-12 schools not colleges.
http://law.jrank.org/pages/12812/United-States-v-Lopez.html
kmcdowel
Regular Member
imported post
So.. I just got a call from the Director of Police Services at NMU. They (Director and Captain I think)want to meet with me tomorrow afternoon, and I agreed to it. Not really sure why they want to meet, maybe were on to something here and I can carry on campus, and they are going to attempt to talk me out of it.
I will let you know how it goes, -Kevin
So.. I just got a call from the Director of Police Services at NMU. They (Director and Captain I think)want to meet with me tomorrow afternoon, and I agreed to it. Not really sure why they want to meet, maybe were on to something here and I can carry on campus, and they are going to attempt to talk me out of it.
I will let you know how it goes, -Kevin
ghostrider
Regular Member
imported post
kmcdowel wrote:
Remember some other student who was kicked out of school for voicing protests to his schools policy.
kmcdowel wrote:
Have you been asking them about this issue? If not, then I wouldn't trust them completely. At any rate, you may want to consider taking along a recorder and insist on recording the conversationg since it is they who approached you for this meeting.
Remember some other student who was kicked out of school for voicing protests to his schools policy.
kmcdowel
Regular Member
imported post
I will be picking up a voice recorder tomorrow before the meeting. Yes, it is because I have been enquiring about the policy. I will not insist on recording it, I will just do it, without them knowning
.
EDIT: They may just want to check me out...be sure that I'm nota crazystudentabout to go on a shooting spree.
I will be picking up a voice recorder tomorrow before the meeting. Yes, it is because I have been enquiring about the policy. I will not insist on recording it, I will just do it, without them knowning
. EDIT: They may just want to check me out...be sure that I'm nota crazystudentabout to go on a shooting spree.
Venator
Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
imported post
kmcdowel wrote:
We are still checking on the MSU etal restrictions. I have received an email from Mr. Slider from handgunlaw.com The MSP agree with my interpretation that these three schools have no more preemptive power then the other public schools in Michigan. It would appear that carry on campus is legal, but they can restrict students and staff via a policy.
"Brian, The MSP told me you were corret but it was Joel Fulton who
told me about those shcools and I have an email into him. Keep
reminding me and I will tell you what I find out....
Stay safe, Gary Slider"
Colleges have no preemptive power. The only thing theycan control is students and staff with a policy (not a law), which allows them to discipline students and staff up to and including termination and expulsion. So as long as you are a student you are legally defenseless.
Will keep you al posted on this.
Cheers, Brian
kmcdowel wrote:
I will be picking up a voice recorder tomorrow before the meeting. Yes, it is because I have been enquiring about the policy. I will not insist on recording it, I will just do it, without them knowning
EDIT: They may just want to check me out...be sure that I'm nota crazystudentabout to go on a shooting spree.
We are still checking on the MSU etal restrictions. I have received an email from Mr. Slider from handgunlaw.com The MSP agree with my interpretation that these three schools have no more preemptive power then the other public schools in Michigan. It would appear that carry on campus is legal, but they can restrict students and staff via a policy.
"Brian, The MSP told me you were corret but it was Joel Fulton who
told me about those shcools and I have an email into him. Keep
reminding me and I will tell you what I find out....
Stay safe, Gary Slider"
Colleges have no preemptive power. The only thing theycan control is students and staff with a policy (not a law), which allows them to discipline students and staff up to and including termination and expulsion. So as long as you are a student you are legally defenseless.
Will keep you al posted on this.
Cheers, Brian
kmcdowel
Regular Member
imported post
I posted the question about campus carry on migunowners.org "legal" section. A lawyer replied the following:
HERE is the link if your interested.
I posted the question about campus carry on migunowners.org "legal" section. A lawyer replied the following:
I don't know what plenipotentiary authority is, nor constitutional prerogatives so this doesn't make much sense to me. But, I thought you'd be interested none the less.
HERE is the link if your interested.
Venator
Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
imported post
kmcdowel wrote:
Somewhat outdated plenipotentiary authority is basically supreme power often given to diplomats and other in the course of their work. Basically what the attorney is saying is that MSU has dictatorial power over the state land they oversee.. the power I suppose to have the death penalty, jail terms, etc..... If this is true It's time for it to be challenged. I would very much like to see the reference to the State Constitution he is citing. After all this is just his interpretation, as he is talking about arguments andsuch.
I'm still researching this point.
Thanks for the info this is the first I've heard about MSU's argument (plenipotentiary authority) in this regard.
Cheers,
Brian
kmcdowel wrote:
Somewhat outdated plenipotentiary authority is basically supreme power often given to diplomats and other in the course of their work. Basically what the attorney is saying is that MSU has dictatorial power over the state land they oversee.. the power I suppose to have the death penalty, jail terms, etc..... If this is true It's time for it to be challenged. I would very much like to see the reference to the State Constitution he is citing. After all this is just his interpretation, as he is talking about arguments andsuch.
I'm still researching this point.
Thanks for the info this is the first I've heard about MSU's argument (plenipotentiary authority) in this regard.
Cheers,
Brian
SpringerXDacp
New member
imported post
kmcdowel wrote:
A Prerogative is an exclusive legal right given from a governmentor state and invested in an individual or group
kmcdowel wrote:
Plenipotentiary Authority a person who has full powers, aperson (diplomat)who is fully authorised to represent theiruniversity (Government)as a prerogative.
A Prerogative is an exclusive legal right given from a governmentor state and invested in an individual or group
SpringerXDacp
New member
imported post
Local Units of Government in Michigan:
SNIP
List on the board the various units of local government that students come up with. Lead students to discover that there are six major categories of local government in the State of Michigan including: (1) Counties, (2) Cities, (3) Townships, (4) Villages, (5) Special Districts, (6) and Public School Districts.
Link
Local Units of Government in Michigan:
SNIP
List on the board the various units of local government that students come up with. Lead students to discover that there are six major categories of local government in the State of Michigan including: (1) Counties, (2) Cities, (3) Townships, (4) Villages, (5) Special Districts, (6) and Public School Districts.
Link
kmcdowel
Regular Member
imported post
SpringerXDacp wrote:
SpringerXDacp wrote:
This is just a lesson plan for high schoolers, and nothing that could be considered citable. It appears like it is making the statement that this is a fact however...lets dig around and try to find it. Even if we do, would public school districs include universities? It seems to imply k-12 for some reason
kmcdowel
Regular Member
imported post
kmcdowel wrote:
This meeting was today, and lasted about an hour. It was with the Director and Assistant Director of Public Safety and Police Services. I spoke mostly with the Director, and the AD just sat in. Overall I guess it wen't as well as it could have. They asked some pretty dumb questionslike, why would you wan't to carry? And in attempt to show me the stupidity of a student carrying, they said, "there were three shooting on college campus last Friday....each one was by a student." I said, "THATS EXACTLY WHY I WANT TO CARRY :banghead:." "How do you think your professors would react?" "How do you think the other students would react?"I was also told that the ordinance has been there for over 40 years. He said, "Guess how many challenges we've had to this? One, you." I took this as a complement, and also said that it was unfortunate. In some ways, he sided with me. He said that if it were 40 years ago, he would be probably sitting in that chair (in my position). He apologized for taking so long to get back to me (2 days...quicker than I expected). He told me that he had to talk some things over with the president of the university, and that his office also 'surveyed' each public university to see about their handgun laws. Reportedly, they all have ordinances or codes just like NMU (which I don't doubt).
In closing, I asked what the repercussions would be if I chose to violate this ordinance. He said that I wouldn't be arrested, but would be charged with a violation of the student code. This can result in disciplinary action as small as probation, or as serious as expulsion. Probation would be no big deal, because I would have no further incidents. It would also allow me to easily attract a whole load of needed attention to matter from the campus newspaper, and likely the city newspaper and news channel. Expulsion would be a big deal, because it would mean...well, it would be awful in many ways. I would have the choice to have my case heard from the Dean, or from the student judiciary committee, which is composed of students and some faculty.
I am considering speaking with the dean and asking her views, and somehow asking if she would give me probation for this (and get it on tape, as I did the meeting with Public Safety). With her agreeing to probation, and Public Safety agreeing not to arrest me, I have nothing to lose.
I was also asked to notify them if ahead of time if I chose to protest for safety reasons. I think this would probably be a good idea, but I'm not sure yet.
Lastly, they have a VERY nice training simulator that is part of the training program for every officer in the UP. It offers handgun training, as well as mace, baton and flashlight training. There are over 600 different scenarios, and oftentimes the user works up a sweat. It is quite realistic sounding; if you don't take cover appropriately, you will get shot by the BG by 'real' nylon bullets. It cost them over $85,000 to purchase... blah blah blah. Anyways, they offered it to me. This is something they don't often do. Actually, I've never heard of them doing this. It was sort of a bribe for my compliance, which I never promised. I don't know if I'll take them up on this offer, it may end up being an awkward situation...but it seems like something pretty cool to pass up.
Again, overall it was a pleasant conversation. They never were explicitly against my views, nor denounced my beliefs. I was impressed with their professionalism and demeanor throughout this meeting.
kmcdowel wrote:
This meeting was today, and lasted about an hour. It was with the Director and Assistant Director of Public Safety and Police Services. I spoke mostly with the Director, and the AD just sat in. Overall I guess it wen't as well as it could have. They asked some pretty dumb questionslike, why would you wan't to carry? And in attempt to show me the stupidity of a student carrying, they said, "there were three shooting on college campus last Friday....each one was by a student." I said, "THATS EXACTLY WHY I WANT TO CARRY :banghead:." "How do you think your professors would react?" "How do you think the other students would react?"I was also told that the ordinance has been there for over 40 years. He said, "Guess how many challenges we've had to this? One, you." I took this as a complement, and also said that it was unfortunate. In some ways, he sided with me. He said that if it were 40 years ago, he would be probably sitting in that chair (in my position). He apologized for taking so long to get back to me (2 days...quicker than I expected). He told me that he had to talk some things over with the president of the university, and that his office also 'surveyed' each public university to see about their handgun laws. Reportedly, they all have ordinances or codes just like NMU (which I don't doubt).
In closing, I asked what the repercussions would be if I chose to violate this ordinance. He said that I wouldn't be arrested, but would be charged with a violation of the student code. This can result in disciplinary action as small as probation, or as serious as expulsion. Probation would be no big deal, because I would have no further incidents. It would also allow me to easily attract a whole load of needed attention to matter from the campus newspaper, and likely the city newspaper and news channel. Expulsion would be a big deal, because it would mean...well, it would be awful in many ways. I would have the choice to have my case heard from the Dean, or from the student judiciary committee, which is composed of students and some faculty.
I am considering speaking with the dean and asking her views, and somehow asking if she would give me probation for this (and get it on tape, as I did the meeting with Public Safety). With her agreeing to probation, and Public Safety agreeing not to arrest me, I have nothing to lose.
I was also asked to notify them if ahead of time if I chose to protest for safety reasons. I think this would probably be a good idea, but I'm not sure yet.
Lastly, they have a VERY nice training simulator that is part of the training program for every officer in the UP. It offers handgun training, as well as mace, baton and flashlight training. There are over 600 different scenarios, and oftentimes the user works up a sweat. It is quite realistic sounding; if you don't take cover appropriately, you will get shot by the BG by 'real' nylon bullets. It cost them over $85,000 to purchase... blah blah blah. Anyways, they offered it to me. This is something they don't often do. Actually, I've never heard of them doing this. It was sort of a bribe for my compliance, which I never promised. I don't know if I'll take them up on this offer, it may end up being an awkward situation...but it seems like something pretty cool to pass up.
Again, overall it was a pleasant conversation. They never were explicitly against my views, nor denounced my beliefs. I was impressed with their professionalism and demeanor throughout this meeting.
BB62
Accomplished Advocate
imported post
KMC - a suggestion - contact Students for Concealed Carry on Campus:
http://concealedcampus.org/
They have an account at Facebook, which you should join in order to post there. I think the leaders of the organization, whom I personally met at last year's SAF/CCRKBA meeting, would be interested in your efforts.
Please post the results of your contacts with them.
KMC - a suggestion - contact Students for Concealed Carry on Campus:
http://concealedcampus.org/
They have an account at Facebook, which you should join in order to post there. I think the leaders of the organization, whom I personally met at last year's SAF/CCRKBA meeting, would be interested in your efforts.
Please post the results of your contacts with them.