Protectin' and Servin'

[imperialism2024]

imported post

ama-gi wrote:

UTOC-45-44 wrote:

Read this link http://publicsafety.utah.gov/Citations/citations.html.

According to this linkthe UTAHHighway Patrol Officer was100% within the Law.

Is this really complicated to you? Really??? Really??????????!!!!!!!!!

Here, I'll explain what the rest of us are seeing.

The man was out of state. In almost every state, when you sign the way you plead guilty to a ticket is to sign the back and send it in. To most people in the US, SIGNING A TICKET EQUALS PLEADING GUILTY.

Instead of simply taking a minor situation and explaining what was going on, the officer was on a power trip. Instead of saying, "sir, you're required by Utah law to sign this ticket. It's not an admission of guilt, just a way for us to know you received it. If you don't sign it, I'm goign to have to place you under arrest." If he'd have said that and the guy didn't comply, then he should've arrested him (without a taser).

But he didn't do that. He said, "alright step out" in a macho voice and then as the man proceeded to argue (because not all of us are sheeple who jump when someone with a badge says jump) he turned the situation violent in front of the mans pregnant wife and childe for no other reason than he could and he enjoyed it. He then proceeded to completely lie to the next officer on the scene: "he was jumping all over the place" and "I warned him" when he did not warn him...THAT'S THE PROBLEM!!!

The man was NOT violent. The cop was the only violent person in this encounter. The man was obviously scared and jumped away as soon as he saw the gun pointed at him and pleaded "I'm just trying to understand." This man didn't want to fight, he wanted to understand. He wasn't about to be violent...he was upset at what he felt was an unjust ticket that was going to ruin his vacation and he didn't want to admit guilt to it. this did not have to end in a violent encounter and arrest...the only thing this man did was fail to click his heels when told to do something that didn't make sense to him. And god help us if we ever become a nation that starts following orders that don't make sense to us just because an "authority" told us to do so. Do you think we're still in kindergarten??!

The man did nothing wrong...that's why all the charges have been DROPPED!

The cop then leaves the man lying on the side of the road where he could've gotten run over and denies him the opportunity to comfort his sobbing, pregnant wife.

All to keep us safe....not.

And you're fine with it. I can only hope you get tasered one day for no reason so the rest of the narrow-minded, robotic sheeple like youcan clap their hands and say "he deserved it...thank you for keeping me safe, master." :banghead::banghead:



As others have said, the only crime in America anymore is disobedience.

I don't believe UTOC-45-44 is saying he's fine with it, but rather that the officers were within the law to arrest him for not signing, and I agree with him. I also agree with you that the officer was the one who escalated the situation and was on a power trip, and that he should have and could have handled the situation in a much more diplomatic manner. Hell, I probably would have Tasered by this "L"EO on a few occasions during traffic stops if someone as volatile as him had pulled me over... while I'm not rude or confrontational during my traffic stops, I certainly ask questions. And I also read over the tickets before signing them to make sure that I'm not admitting guilt. On that note, in all four states in which I've received tickets, the required signature only admits that the accused has received the ticket, and doesn't admit guilt. However, that still isn't an excuse as to why the officer couldn't explain the situation in a non-confrontational manner.

 

[imperialism2024]

imported post

Doug Huffman wrote:

Imperialism2024 wrote:

And a much more useful thread title and description...

Do you imagine I don't look over the forum for similar posts before I post? "Watch this" and "Hold muh beer" isn't very informative or attractive. My post was intended as a retort (contra response) to the TASER instead of a gun thread.

I was saying that your thread is the one that has a much more useful thread title and description than "Protectin' and Servin' -Think this would've happened if he was carrying?"


I can't see how beating a corrupt officer is going to stop him. I believe that would just anger him, and cause him to funnel this rage and frustration at being victimized toward more civlians. A much more constructive approach would be to prosecute the officer and then blacklist him from working in "law" enforcement anymore.

 

[swatpro911]

imported post

studies show more damage can be done by batons and mace. Quick electric shock will get you down and you will come back up shortly, no harms done.

 

[sv_libertarian]

imported post

What about the original point? This is WAY F----D UP! I hope that guy ends up OWNING friggin' Utah.

 

[Heartless_Conservative]

imported post

I like how the cop was so jack booted that he lied to the back up officer on camera. Such is his hubris that he clearly did not believe mere laws applied to him.

 

[imperialism2024]

imported post

swatpro911 wrote:

studies show more damage can be done by batons and mace. Quick electric shock will get you down and you will come back up shortly, no harms done.

Physical damage? Or psychological?

Anyhow, as HC has brought up, this "L"EO must be incredibly stupid or full of himself to do this and then lie on camera. Did he not know there was a dashcam? Did he think he was comfortably within the law?

Then again, hey, Tasers don't damage anyone, so they may as well be used like a pat on the back.

 

[nofoa]

imported post

I can't help myself.

"DON'T TAZE ME BRO!!!"

 

[DeltaII5]

imported post

imperialism2024 wrote:

swatpro911 wrote:

studies show more damage can be done by batons and mace. Quick electric shock will get you down and you will come back up shortly, no harms done.

Physical damage? Or psychological?

Anyhow, as HC has brought up, this "L"EO must be incredibly stupid or full of himself to do this and then lie on camera. Did he not know there was a dashcam? Did he think he was comfortably within the law?

Then again, hey, Tasers don't damage anyone, so they may as well be used like a pat on the back.

Ya, pretty safe, only 300 dead now since 1995? I believe. Not sure how many people have died from being maced, though. You musta missed the news last week about the guy in perfect health on no drugs who died after being tasered 4 times by toronto? airport police.



LTL =/= Non Lethal

 

[sjhipple]

imported post

DeltaII5 wrote:

imperialism2024 wrote:

swatpro911 wrote:

studies show more damage can be done by batons and mace. Quick electric shock will get you down and you will come back up shortly, no harms done.

Physical damage? Or psychological?

Anyhow, as HC has brought up, this "L"EO must be incredibly stupid or full of himself to do this and then lie on camera. Did he not know there was a dashcam? Did he think he was comfortably within the law?

Then again, hey, Tasers don't damage anyone, so they may as well be used like a pat on the back.

Ya, pretty safe, only 300 dead now since 1995? I believe. Not sure how many people have died from being maced, though. You musta missed the news last week about the guy in perfect health on no drugs who died after being tasered 4 times by toronto? airport police.



LTL =/= Non Lethal

More like 500...with 2 being killed by tasersin just the last 2 weeks...both of them taser uses were completely unnecessary.

 

[cvc]

imported post

I say dismantle all law enforcement agency'sandlet everyone that wants to, carry a weapon, except ex-cops.

I'll choose anarchy over tyrannyany day.

 

[SouthernBoy]

imported post

ama-gi wrote:

UTOC-45-44 wrote:

Read this link http://publicsafety.utah.gov/Citations/citations.html.

According to this linkthe UTAHHighway Patrol Officer was100% within the Law.

Is this really complicated to you? Really??? Really??????????!!!!!!!!!

Here, I'll explain what the rest of us are seeing.

The man was out of state. In almost every state, when you sign the way you plead guilty to a ticket is to sign the back and send it in. To most people in the US, SIGNING A TICKET EQUALS PLEADING GUILTY.

Instead of simply taking a minor situation and explaining what was going on, the officer was on a power trip. Instead of saying, "sir, you're required by Utah law to sign this ticket. It's not an admission of guilt, just a way for us to know you received it. If you don't sign it, I'm goign to have to place you under arrest." If he'd have said that and the guy didn't comply, then he should've arrested him (without a taser).

But he didn't do that. He said, "alright step out" in a macho voice and then as the man proceeded to argue (because not all of us are sheeple who jump when someone with a badge says jump) he turned the situation violent in front of the mans pregnant wife and childe for no other reason than he could and he enjoyed it. He then proceeded to completely lie to the next officer on the scene: "he was jumping all over the place" and "I warned him" when he did not warn him...THAT'S THE PROBLEM!!!

The man was NOT violent. The cop was the only violent person in this encounter. The man was obviously scared and jumped away as soon as he saw the gun pointed at him and pleaded "I'm just trying to understand." This man didn't want to fight, he wanted to understand. He wasn't about to be violent...he was upset at what he felt was an unjust ticket that was going to ruin his vacation and he didn't want to admit guilt to it. this did not have to end in a violent encounter and arrest...the only thing this man did was fail to click his heels when told to do something that didn't make sense to him. And god help us if we ever become a nation that starts following orders that don't make sense to us just because an "authority" told us to do so. Do you think we're still in kindergarten??!

The man did nothing wrong...that's why all the charges have been DROPPED!

The cop then leaves the man lying on the side of the road where he could've gotten run over and denies him the opportunity to comfort his sobbing, pregnant wife.

All to keep us safe....not.

And you're fine with it. I can only hope you get tasered one day for no reason so the rest of the narrow-minded, robotic sheeple like youcan clap their hands and say "he deserved it...thank you for keeping me safe, master." :banghead::banghead:



As others have said, the only crime in America anymore is disobedience.

Amen.

One thing I cannot stand is an authority figure with an attitude.. one who forgets his charge and for whom he works.

 

[DeltaII5]

imported post

The guy has been all over the national news outlets.



He put the issue perfectly "He used a potentially lethal weapon on me over a trivial matter"

 

[UTOC-45-44]

imported post

ama-gi wrote:

UTOC-45-44 wrote:

Read this link imperialism2024, thank you for understanding. I agree that the officer could have been more diplomatic. We all can sometimes but we all fall short of that too. I agree that he is in a position of authority and needs to think of this. Anybody that get's pulled over will be a little bit "nervous" so to speak.

ama-gi ,I stated that the LEO was within the Law to arrest him. I never said that the Guy deserved it. Here are some Utah codes in making an arrest. This applies to both Citizens Arrest/Peace Officer Arrest



Utah Code Section 76-2-403



[size=-1]76-2-403. Force in arrest. Any person is justified in using any force, ... Sections in this Chapter|Chapters in this Title|All Titles|Legislative Home Page ...
le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_02023.htm - 2k - Cached - Similar pages[/size]

76-2-403. Force in arrest.
Any person is justified in using any force, except deadly force, which he reasonably believes to be necessary to effect an arrest or to defend himself or another from bodily harm while making an arrest.


Enacted by Chapter 196, 1973 General Session
Download Code Section Zipped WP 6/7/8 76_02023.ZIP 1,652 Bytes


[line]

Sections in this Chapter|Chapters in this Title|All Titles|Legislative Home Page


Last revised: Thursday, July 19, 2007
77-7-7 Force in making arrest.
WP Zipped -- 1,729 bytes -- Last Update 09-Aug-02
77-7-7. Force in making arrest.
If a person is being arrested and flees or forcibly resists after being informed of the intention to make the arrest, the person arresting may use reasonable force to effect the arrest. Deadly force may be used only as provided in Section 76-2-404.


Enacted by Chapter 15, 1980 General Session
Download Code Section Zipped WP 6/7/8 77_09008.ZIP 1,729 Bytes


[line]

Sections in this Chapter|Chapters in this Title|All Titles|Legislative Home Page


Last revised: Monday, April 30, 2007
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And here is WHAT IFthe Guy wouldhave tried to get in to the car because he didn't want to sign the ticket, he possibly could cause serious bodily injury or even death in a potential car chase to his wife ( and kids in the car ).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Utah Code Section 76-2-404



[size=-1]76-2-404. Peace officer's use of deadly force. (1) A peace officer, ... Sections in this Chapter|Chapters in this Title|All Titles|Legislative Home Page ...
le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_02024.htm - 3k - Cached - Similar pages[/size]



"(c) the officer reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to the officer or another person."


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These are just Laws and codes that I have found. Do I agree with them ??? That's a different thing



Just my .44

 

[Thundar]

imported post

imperialism2024 wrote:

swatpro911 wrote:

studies show more damage can be done by batons and mace. Quick electric shock will get you down and you will come back up shortly, no harms done.

Physical damage? Or psychological?

Anyhow, as HC has brought up, this "L"EO must be incredibly stupid or full of himself to do this and then lie on camera. Did he not know there was a dashcam? Did he think he was comfortably within the law?

Then again, hey, Tasers don't damage anyone, so they may as well be used like a pat on the back.

What if the pregnant wife had been armed?Would she have been jutifiedif she had shot or disarmed the maniacal officer to defend her husband?

I love most LEO's but this is absolutely evil. This patrolman violated many laws, not only in assaulting the victim, but also in the lies he told to a law enforcement officer (2nd patrolman on the scene) to tryand cover hiscriminal behavior.

More disturbing to me that the incident is the defense of it as justified by the Utah Highway Patrol.

 

[sjhipple]

imported post

Thundar wrote:

More disturbing to me that the incident is the defense of it as justified by the Utah Highway Patrol.

No surprise there. The cop could've broken both of his thumbs and punched his pregnant wife in the stomach and the Utah Patrol would still "stand behind their officer."

That's what I've been saying on other threads. Police departments have zero credibility. I don't trust them because they ALWAYS side with their officer. If I felt like the review board was impartial, I might put some stock in what they say.

 

[openryan]

imported post

Signing the ticket should have been a big deal... every ticket that I had been issued, I had signed... usually in all the states I have gotten tickets, you sign the front as a promise to either show up in court or to take care of the ticket, not an admission of guilt... and on the back you can sign again to plead guilty to mail it in (pleading guilty is a seperate signature...

I looked for a Utah ticket online, can't find one, if anyone can, I'd be really interested in seeing it.

 

[SouthernBoy]

imported post

Thundar wrote:

imperialism2024 wrote:

swatpro911 wrote:

studies show more damage can be done by batons and mace. Quick electric shock will get you down and you will come back up shortly, no harms done.

Physical damage? Or psychological?

Anyhow, as HC has brought up, this "L"EO must be incredibly stupid or full of himself to do this and then lie on camera. Did he not know there was a dashcam? Did he think he was comfortably within the law?

Then again, hey, Tasers don't damage anyone, so they may as well be used like a pat on the back.

What if the pregnant wife had been armed?Would she have been jutifiedif she had shot or disarmed the maniacal officer to defend her husband?

I love most LEO's but this is absolutely evil. This patrolman violated many laws, not only in assaulting the victim, but also in the lies he told to a law enforcement officer (2nd patrolman on the scene) to tryand cover hiscriminal behavior.

More disturbing to me that the incident is the defense of it as justified by the Utah Highway Patrol.

Good point about the wife being armed as a possibility. Also, what about this.

Suppose our traveler was highly trained in the use of hand-to-hand defensive/offensive tactics and reacted to the abrupt behavior of the officer by throwing him to the ground while at the same time disarming him, then used the tazer on the officer (not at all a bad turn of events when one considers the actions of this "LEO"). What might be the outcome of such an action?

Let's face it. LEO's see and face everything one can imagine from the good to the evil and everything in between. They tend to see more of the bad side of society than the good, too. So there is that protective covering they must wear to both shield and protect themselves from nasty people. But they are also expected to treat people with a level of respect and dignity and avoid using forceful and aggressive actions unless absolutely necessary. This means we demand and expect a hell of a lot from them all the time. And we should because what we do not want to see the beginnings of a police state. What we do not need to see ever again is the dispicable behavior of the elected officials, the police, and the national guard in New Orleans with their treatment of the citizens and citizen arms we witnessed in and around New Orleans after hurricane Katrina. (damn do I wish a bunch of good 'ole boys had banded together heavily armed and told those clowns, "you ain't taking our arms.. not today, not tomorrow, not ever").

 

[UTOC-45-44]

imported post

openryan wrote:

Signing the ticket should have been a big deal... every ticket that I had been issued, I had signed... usually in all the states I have gotten tickets, you sign the front as a promise to either show up in court or to take care of the ticket, not an admission of guilt... and on the back you can sign again to plead guilty to mail it in (pleading guilty is a seperate signature...

I looked for a Utah ticket online, can't find one, if anyone can, I'd be really interested in seeing it.

On the botom of this link http://publicsafety.utah.gov/Citations/citations.htmlare some examples from the UHP. Click on each of the links below

http://publicsafety.utah.gov/Citations/citations_example1.html

http://publicsafety.utah.gov/Citations/citations_example2.html

http://publicsafety.utah.gov/Citations/citations_example3.html

They all say " WITHOUT ADMITING GUILT I PROMISE TO APPEAR AS DIRECTED HEREIN SIGNATURE OR.....OFFENSE TRACKING NUMBER: X____________________________

 

[TrueBrit]

imported post

SouthernBoy wrote:

Thundar wrote:

imperialism2024 wrote:

swatpro911 wrote:

studies show more damage can be done by batons and mace. Quick electric shock will get you down and you will come back up shortly, no harms done.

Physical damage? Or psychological?

Anyhow, as HC has brought up, this "L"EO must be incredibly stupid or full of himself to do this and then lie on camera. Did he not know there was a dashcam? Did he think he was comfortably within the law?

Then again, hey, Tasers don't damage anyone, so they may as well be used like a pat on the back.

What if the pregnant wife had been armed?Would she have been jutifiedif she had shot or disarmed the maniacal officer to defend her husband?

I love most LEO's but this is absolutely evil. This patrolman violated many laws, not only in assaulting the victim, but also in the lies he told to a law enforcement officer (2nd patrolman on the scene) to tryand cover hiscriminal behavior.

More disturbing to me that the incident is the defense of it as justified by the Utah Highway Patrol.

Good point about the wife being armed as a possibility. Also, what about this.

Suppose our traveler was highly trained in the use of hand-to-hand defensive/offensive tactics and reacted to the abrupt behavior of the officer by throwing him to the ground while at the same time disarming him, then used the tazer on the officer (not at all a bad turn of events when one considers the actions of this "LEO"). What might be the outcome of such an action?

Let's face it. LEO's see and face everything one can imagine from the good to the evil and everything in between. They tend to see more of the bad side of society than the good, too. So there is that protective covering they must wear to both shield and protect themselves from nasty people. But they are also expected to treat people with a level of respect and dignity and avoid using forceful and aggressive actions unless absolutely necessary. This means we demand and expect a hell of a lot from them all the time. And we should because what we do not want to see the beginnings of a police state. What we do not need to see ever again is the dispicable behavior of the elected officials, the police, and the national guard in New Orleans with their treatment of the citizens and citizen arms we witnessed in and around New Orleans after hurricane Katrina. (damn do I wish a bunch of good 'ole boys had banded together heavily armed and told those clowns, "you ain't taking our arms.. not today, not tomorrow, not ever").

Good, pertinent post from the Southron gentleman, as ever.

The terrifying part in all of this for me, is that, someday soon,there will be tragic consequences, both for a badge-heavy cop and an outraged, legally armed citizen, if this kind of behaviour goes unchecked.

TrueBrit.

 

[deepdiver]

imported post

I have been involved in some rather long discussion about this on other forums as well and will try to succinctly paraphrase my thoughts:

1) In news articles an LEO spokesman for the dept stated that if someone refuses to sign the ticket the officer has the option of either writing "refused to sign" on the ticket and sending the person on their way or arresting them. The officer CHOSE to push this to the point of a physical confrontation.

2) The guy pulled over was a jerk and shall henceforth be simply referred to as "jerk" and he pushed the officer's buttons.

3) The officer started the interaction in a confrontational manner and at every step when he had the opportunity to de-escalate/defuse the situation he instead escalated it. His was the greater duty to de-escalate and calm the situation and he utterly failed to do so on numerous levels at every step of the interaction.

4) At the final moment when the officer tased the jerk, I think he was justified. Jerk was scared and confused I think, but instead of holding his hands in plain sight defensively he put his hand in his pocket. If I were in a potentially deadly confrontation with someone (which any traffic stop is for LEO) and the other guy did that I very well might have my gun out screaming "show me your hands".

5) The only reason this escalated to the point of a (probably) justifiable tasing was "Panties in a wad with a badge Offcer" met "I am a beautiful unique snowflake citizen" and the officer had the ability to "win".

6) The conversation with the other officer at the end shows that the LEO is either a pervericator, was confused in the "fog of war", a combination of both or something in between. If he was not intentionally dissembling to CYA with the other officer, then that worries me more on a different level. With a different citizen, in a slightly different situation, the same escalation (and misperceptions?) could lead to someone dead or critically injured, most likely the citizen. That makes this officer a potential danger to the public. Either he needs a long vacation and retraining or a different vocation. Not everyone has the temperment to be an LEO, I sure as heck know that I don't. It's a tough job and they get a lot of abuse. Some people and their egos don't handle that well.