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Q: What is so wrong w/ "Training"?
- Thread starter qball54208
- Start date
Citizen
Founder's Club Member
SNIP I guess I'm going to have to start sending myself bills
Wait! Does this mean you can deduct all your range time as a business expense?
GlockMeisterG21
Campaign Veteran
Training is an issue that I'm truly torn on. On on hand I despise government regulation. On the other, I feel that all firearms owners should have (at the very least) a working knowledge on their gun and general safety. I think you'er a fool and a danger to other if you don't have at least that much.
I see people every day that barely know which end of the gun is which(ok, that's a little harsh but you get the drift). Have you ever been to a public range and been in fear for your safety because some moron can't keep his muzzle downrange? I've watched some security companies during their "training" classes and I've seen people get certified that couldn't remember how to lock the slide back on their sidearm(this was as the class was finishing up).
Then there's the legalities of shooting someone in WI. All the laws you have to navigate can be frustrating and many training classes can help you understand the laws.
Tactics can be a big thing as well. You can't just go tunnel vision because some perp walks into the place with a gun raised and demands money. There are very likely a bunch of people around you and him that could be hit in a gunfight. You have to know when it's both legally and tactically sound to intervene and escalate the situation. If you don't you could end up in jail with someones death on your conscience.
These are just some of the big things you'll find in a training class.
I get that people can't necessarily afford classes like that. I personally think you can learn most of that from a couple good books and a good dvd. Some stuff though is state specific and will be harder to find.
I guess I'm going to sum this rant up and hit the sack.
Should firearms training be mandatory? Yes, especially if you carry. You should require it of yourself. I know I do.
Should the government regulate and permit it? Still torn at this point.
Btw, one benefit I can think of in favor of the permitting system is the likelihood of reciprocity with more states than a non-permitted system. I don't travel much but thought it would be worth noting.
I see people every day that barely know which end of the gun is which(ok, that's a little harsh but you get the drift). Have you ever been to a public range and been in fear for your safety because some moron can't keep his muzzle downrange? I've watched some security companies during their "training" classes and I've seen people get certified that couldn't remember how to lock the slide back on their sidearm(this was as the class was finishing up).
Then there's the legalities of shooting someone in WI. All the laws you have to navigate can be frustrating and many training classes can help you understand the laws.
Tactics can be a big thing as well. You can't just go tunnel vision because some perp walks into the place with a gun raised and demands money. There are very likely a bunch of people around you and him that could be hit in a gunfight. You have to know when it's both legally and tactically sound to intervene and escalate the situation. If you don't you could end up in jail with someones death on your conscience.
These are just some of the big things you'll find in a training class.
I get that people can't necessarily afford classes like that. I personally think you can learn most of that from a couple good books and a good dvd. Some stuff though is state specific and will be harder to find.
I guess I'm going to sum this rant up and hit the sack.
Should firearms training be mandatory? Yes, especially if you carry. You should require it of yourself. I know I do.
Should the government regulate and permit it? Still torn at this point.
Btw, one benefit I can think of in favor of the permitting system is the likelihood of reciprocity with more states than a non-permitted system. I don't travel much but thought it would be worth noting.
Captain Nemo
Regular Member
I_K:
My hats off to the Marines. Then again the Mrines are a "special" unit. I dn't suppose my training in a F-86 Sabrejet qualifies as firearm training.
My hats off to the Marines. Then again the Mrines are a "special" unit. I dn't suppose my training in a F-86 Sabrejet qualifies as firearm training.
Shotgun
Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
You didn't ever carry that F-86 concealed, did you? I suppose only something like an F-117 or F-22 is carried concealed.
J.Gleason
Banned
I don't think shooting at a target at 500m makes anyone special. I have done it many times and in fact shot at and hit targets even farther away than that.
Just sayin.
Just sayin.
Krusty
Regular Member
Training
I've got to agree with you "Qball54208", if training isn't necessary, why does the military and LEO's train.
These people train because it's required of their job. And the taxpayer pays for it. Do you think they'd do it if they had to pay for it?
LEO's don't even shoot on their own time as a rule. There are very few exceptions to this . If not a training session, they won't be on the pistol range. I am speaking from my own experience in LaCrosse county. And I would expect the rest of the state is about the same.
I've got to agree with you "Qball54208", if training isn't necessary, why does the military and LEO's train.
These people train because it's required of their job. And the taxpayer pays for it. Do you think they'd do it if they had to pay for it?
LEO's don't even shoot on their own time as a rule. There are very few exceptions to this . If not a training session, they won't be on the pistol range. I am speaking from my own experience in LaCrosse county. And I would expect the rest of the state is about the same.
Brass Magnet
Founder's Club Member
How about this?
First let me say that I 100% agree with those that say there should be no mandated training EVER for a constitutionally protected right. That aside, let me try a different, but very simple way of putting it.
Let's say I'm a guy who wouldn't normally carry anywhere. I keep a handgun in my house in case of a break in and I don't care if others carry, but I generally don't. Because of this I didn't bother to get the permit nor have the mandated training. Well, my daughter (whom I've told to call me no matter what and I won't be mad) calls me late at night from some bad neighborhood. Now, I want to carry but alas, I have no permit. I go to pick up my daughter and we both end up being assaulted or possibly killed and have no means to defend ourselves.
Now, if this were you, would you say "to hell with the permit" and carry anyway? Probably not, you'd bet (and be right) that most likely nothing would happen. Most likely, but not this time. The SHTF. In the least; in this situation, would it seem to you that the mandatory training thing is less important than the life of one of your loved ones.
Mandatory training is nothing more than another prior restraint on your rights. Here it isn't just preventing your exercise of your 2nd amendment rights but preventing you from exercising the most sacred of all human rights, the right to defend yourself; your right to life.
First let me say that I 100% agree with those that say there should be no mandated training EVER for a constitutionally protected right. That aside, let me try a different, but very simple way of putting it.
Let's say I'm a guy who wouldn't normally carry anywhere. I keep a handgun in my house in case of a break in and I don't care if others carry, but I generally don't. Because of this I didn't bother to get the permit nor have the mandated training. Well, my daughter (whom I've told to call me no matter what and I won't be mad) calls me late at night from some bad neighborhood. Now, I want to carry but alas, I have no permit. I go to pick up my daughter and we both end up being assaulted or possibly killed and have no means to defend ourselves.
Now, if this were you, would you say "to hell with the permit" and carry anyway? Probably not, you'd bet (and be right) that most likely nothing would happen. Most likely, but not this time. The SHTF. In the least; in this situation, would it seem to you that the mandatory training thing is less important than the life of one of your loved ones.
Mandatory training is nothing more than another prior restraint on your rights. Here it isn't just preventing your exercise of your 2nd amendment rights but preventing you from exercising the most sacred of all human rights, the right to defend yourself; your right to life.
Captain Nemo
Regular Member
Nope Shotgun:
I always carried it openly. I was proud of it and wanted to show it off. Six 50 cal machine guns, 2 sixteen rocket pods and two sidewinder missles. Lots of knockdown power for its day and flying over Northern Wisconsin and Minnesota at 15,000 feet is probably as close to heaven as I will get.
I always carried it openly. I was proud of it and wanted to show it off. Six 50 cal machine guns, 2 sixteen rocket pods and two sidewinder missles. Lots of knockdown power for its day and flying over Northern Wisconsin and Minnesota at 15,000 feet is probably as close to heaven as I will get.
phred
Regular Member
I am so jealous. Of course, thank you for all you had to go through (professionally and personally) to be able to do that.
Interceptor_Knight
Regular Member
That just means that you are "special" too...:lol: It may not be "special", but long distance shooting is a skill which requires practice to achieve and maintain. Most peopel do not possess this skill. Being able to take a rack grade rifle, surplus ammo and make solid hits consistently using iron sights is not something the vast majority of people can not do. I have, can and regularly do. Most people would have a difficult time doing it with a scoped rifle if they were handed one zeroed for 100 yds without wasting a pile of ammo.
Unless you are not clear, I am not talking bench rest shooting or even sand bag or other supported shooting. All you have is your rifle and sling. I shoot High Power on a regular basis and as I have mentioned before, I am an Appleseed RWVA Certified Instructor (no pay, just the satisfaction of teaching people to shoot 500M).
Come to an Appleseed some time and prove that it is no big deal....:dude:
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Interceptor_Knight
Regular Member
Thanks... I don't consider us "special", but the Marines are the only branch still teaching all recruits traditional marksmanship and requiring long distance shooting on a regular basis. They have evolved and are teaching more urban and close distance engagement to all recruits after the full distance training is completed than they did when I was active. We did it some but were not required to qualify at it. I believe that they are now doing additional qualifying at "pop ups" and such....
Brass Magnet
Founder's Club Member
I just have a small objection with the embelishment here:
"rack grade" and "surplus ammo" are functions of LUCK; not skill.
PT111
Regular Member
I think that there are some requirements that should be enforced before anyone is allowed to carry a gun around or even handle one. How these requirements are enforced I have no idea. Maybe as part of the NICS check the person selling the gun could verify that the buyer can pass the simnple test.
You need to know where the bullet comes out of the gun and that bullet can hurt you. Some perple don't seem to know what the barrel of a gun is for.
Second you need to be able to shoot the gun without closing your eyes. When I took my CWP class there were two ladies there that could not pull the trigger without closing their eyas and facing away from the gun. Out of 50 rounds each at a man size targed from 3 yards they managed to hit it a total of 3 times together. I don't want to be standing close to the BG when they start trying to shoot him.
You need to have a basic understanding of the laws on guns. For instance you can't shoot someone just because you don't like them or you think they have done something bad. Wearing a gun does not make you Wyatt Earp orTony Saprano.
Lastly, if you kill someone with your gun accidently and didn't man to they are still dead. You do not play with guns, you never point the at anyone and you do not allow others to play with your gun.
All other training is optional.
You need to know where the bullet comes out of the gun and that bullet can hurt you. Some perple don't seem to know what the barrel of a gun is for.
Second you need to be able to shoot the gun without closing your eyes. When I took my CWP class there were two ladies there that could not pull the trigger without closing their eyas and facing away from the gun. Out of 50 rounds each at a man size targed from 3 yards they managed to hit it a total of 3 times together. I don't want to be standing close to the BG when they start trying to shoot him.
You need to have a basic understanding of the laws on guns. For instance you can't shoot someone just because you don't like them or you think they have done something bad. Wearing a gun does not make you Wyatt Earp orTony Saprano.
Lastly, if you kill someone with your gun accidently and didn't man to they are still dead. You do not play with guns, you never point the at anyone and you do not allow others to play with your gun.
All other training is optional.
Interceptor_Knight
Regular Member
Please explain. How is specifying a grade of tool "luck"? That is like saying 4+4= potato.
Rack grand refers to your standard off-the-shelf rifle. It is the lowest grade M1 the CMP sells without considering it a "parts" gun. Surplus ammo refers to just that as compared to quality modern commercial ammo or even match ammo. The US military Standard is 4MOA for acceptable accuracy with a M1 Garand. This is considered to be a serviceable weapon. Most are better than that. Surplus ammo will easily shoot 2MOA or better. Most people can not shoot their way out of a wet paper bag with a AK based rifle. I have seen people keep sub 4MOA groups with them. Once again, I am not talking bench rest shooting. I have seen people shoot a ragged hole from the bench and then their groups explode when the grab a sling and shoot unsupported in sitting and prone with the same rifle, let alone off-hand. It resembles more of a shotgun pattern and precision shooting.
Please explain how "luck" figures into anything I have said.....
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Brass Magnet
Founder's Club Member
I'm saying that it is luck of the draw if the rack grade rifle or surplus ammo shoots up to par. You are adding the modifiers of a "rack grade" weapon with "surplus" ammo to embelish the SKILL of the shooter and they don't. That's the only 4+4 that equals potato.
What I'm saying is that if a guy can hit something with iron sites on a PALMA rifle for instance, he can do the same with the iron sites on a rack grade rifle with surplus ammo; assuming they aren't junk.
On a side note: Yes, I'm feeling rather argumentative today....:lol:
The red part is the only thing that has to do with skill.
What I'm saying is that if a guy can hit something with iron sites on a PALMA rifle for instance, he can do the same with the iron sites on a rack grade rifle with surplus ammo; assuming they aren't junk.
On a side note: Yes, I'm feeling rather argumentative today....:lol:
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Interceptor_Knight
Regular Member
If the rifle is not "serviceable", it is not rack grade. Even surplus ammo has quality standards. For the US Military, 4MOA is the standard for serviceable.
Your premise is the basis of the TV reality Show Top Shot. Reality can be quite different. I have seen shooters at an Appleseed who are used to very expensive high end equipment struggle for a while when they try to use a rack grade service rifle. The same thing happened on TV.
Walt_Kowalski
Regular Member
J.Gleason
Banned
I think my military record is all the proof that I need. I need not prove anything to you as I am sure it wouldn't be good enough anyway. Really doesn't matter because I am sure you will find something wrong or tell me why I am wrong or why you are so much better than I and everyone else here. So with that in mind I will not feed this troll any longer. And when I say troll I am referring to the conversation.
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Brass Magnet
Founder's Club Member
4MOA sounds like luck to me. That's like 20" at 500 yards. That means that any grouping less than 20" is luck. I'm not even entering the "rack grade" rifle into the equation which probably adds like 2 or 3 more MOA to the deal so unless you are talking about a target, the size of a friggen barn it's LUCK LUCK LUCK. What are you not understanding here? You are trying to talk your way around an indefensible position.
My premise has nothing to do with that crappy show, thank you very much.