Q: What is so wrong w/ "Training"?

[msteinhilber]

Training is a good thing, it's something that most knowledgeable owners of firearms do and often on a somewhat regular basis. There is absolutely nothing at all wrong with training, and I recommend doing so as often as possible.

Mandated training, as many others pointed out, is wrong and not at all something that should be required. The minute any right is associated with mandates, approval, licensing, etc. It's no longer a right once that occurs. Mandating is nothing more, in my opinion, than a doorway for more easily significantly restricting and potentially eliminating rights in the future not to mention the restriction it poses on said right the instant it is passed and signed into law.

Regarding the argument that mandated training would make those who own gun's know the laws, respect the laws, and minimize risks to third parties should they need to use their firearm. My thought on this is the following. If you have a guy who wants to carry and really doesn't give a damn about safety of himself or those around him, do you think mandated training is going to change that? It may or may not, but I would argue the guy would either carry anyways without the mandated training or they would attend said training and pass but really not care about the content and not take anything away from the course. So the risk exists either way.

 

[Krusty]

Training vs Safety

When the subject turns from training to safety, I have learned over the years that safety is 95-99% common sense. Training is technique and practice in order to achieve proficiency.

Technique can be learned from study and practice. Common sense cannot.

 

[phred]

When the subject turns from training to safety, I have learned over the years that safety is 95-99% common sense. Training is technique and practice in order to achieve proficiency.

Technique can be learned from study and practice. Common sense cannot.

I suppose some "common sense" is innate, similar to instinct. However, there is "common sense" that is obtained by learning and training. Learning and training and are useful. Everybody does not know everything about all things.

The "common sense" of an expert in any field is usually much better than the "common sense" of a novice. That said, as an adult, I will learn what I want to learn, and train accordingly because that is my choice.

 

[msteinhilber]

I suppose some "common sense" is innate, similar to instinct. However, there is "common sense" that is obtained by learning and training. Learning and training and are useful. Everybody does not know everything about all things.

The "common sense" of an expert in any field is usually much better than the "common sense" of a novice. That said, as an adult, I will learn what I want to learn, and train accordingly because that is my choice.

There is a lot of common sense that a lot of more experienced people think is hands down plain old you should just know it common sense, and some of that common sense simply isn't common to the new shooter based on watching other new shooters and taking friends or family of mine to the range who haven't shot before. I've taken people whom I would consider of good intelligence, and overall very conscientious people with regards to overall safety and well being of others. Yet time and time again, largely because of their unfamiliarity of firearms I'll correct them as they muzzle others around them be it loaded or unloaded, keeping their finger on the trigger even if they are not ready to shoot, etc. Things that many of us probably consider common sense. I don't fault them for it though, it's just inexperience and perhaps a bit of fear.

That said, I strongly believe that your average joe or jane who decides to carry be it open or concealed (once we get to that point) by being able to make such a choice will, in my opinion, be somebody who either has a desire to learn more about firearms (including safety, accuracy, cleaning/maintenance, etc) or already has done so. There will likely be the occasional individual who simply decides they want to carry a gun and doesn't educate themselves, but like I said in my other post - having a mandated training isn't going to stop them anyways.

Saying a mandated training is going to magically make everybody who opts to carry a firearm a perfect little safety angel is plain ignorant. If you apply that logic to say the drivers licensing process, it would be much akin to saying the licensing process will make all drivers not speed, drive recklessly, run traffic signals, drive drunk, and so forth that also can lead to serious injury of others and possibly death. And if you were to go down that route, I'd wager that more traffic accidents (where a law broken while behind the wheel contributed to the accident) occur involving licensed drivers vs. unlicensed drivers so I guess mandates don't really do much good do they? Except for the obvious "good" of being a profit center for the government.

 

[phred]

There is a lot of common sense that a lot of more experienced people think is hands down plain old you should just know it common sense, and some of that common sense simply isn't common to the new shooter based on watching other new shooters and taking friends or family of mine to the range who haven't shot before. I've taken people whom I would consider of good intelligence, and overall very conscientious people with regards to overall safety and well being of others. Yet time and time again, largely because of their unfamiliarity of firearms I'll correct them as they muzzle others around them be it loaded or unloaded, keeping their finger on the trigger even if they are not ready to shoot, etc. Things that many of us probably consider common sense. I don't fault them for it though, it's just inexperience and perhaps a bit of fear.

That said, I strongly believe that your average joe or jane who decides to carry be it open or concealed (once we get to that point) by being able to make such a choice will, in my opinion, be somebody who either has a desire to learn more about firearms (including safety, accuracy, cleaning/maintenance, etc) or already has done so. There will likely be the occasional individual who simply decides they want to carry a gun and doesn't educate themselves, but like I said in my other post - having a mandated training isn't going to stop them anyways.

Saying a mandated training is going to magically make everybody who opts to carry a firearm a perfect little safety angel is plain ignorant. If you apply that logic to say the drivers licensing process, it would be much akin to saying the licensing process will make all drivers not speed, drive recklessly, run traffic signals, drive drunk, and so forth that also can lead to serious injury of others and possibly death. And if you were to go down that route, I'd wager that more traffic accidents (where a law broken while behind the wheel contributed to the accident) occur involving licensed drivers vs. unlicensed drivers so I guess mandates don't really do much good do they? Except for the obvious "good" of being a profit center for the government.

You quoted me, but I don't know if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me. I have 50 years of shooting experiences, but because I wanted to, I have taken some firearms training and I am now a much better shooter, especially when it comes to defensive shooting. I am not a master at it though, and I intend to continue to learn and train. I made the choice. I do not want some bureaucrat making that choice for me.

I too have helped others shooting firearms. And, I agree with you that my common sense, with respect to firearms, is well ahead of some of those I have helped. Knowledge is power! A person is never too old to learn.

 

[bnhcomputing]

Most regulations are passed under the guise of "safety."

Most arguments against the free exercise of ones right come under the guise of "safety."

 

[msteinhilber]

You quoted me, but I don't know if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me. I have 50 years of shooting experiences, but because I wanted to, I have taken some firearms training and I am now a much better shooter, especially when it comes to defensive shooting. I am not a master at it though, and I intend to continue to learn and train. I made the choice. I do not want some bureaucrat making that choice for me.

I too have helped others shooting firearms. And, I agree with you that my common sense, with respect to firearms, is well ahead of some of those I have helped. Knowledge is power! A person is never too old to learn.

I'm agreeing with you.

Basically mean that because even a slightly experienced shooter (I admittedly only have about a year of experience) has a different view of what should be common sense when it comes to firearms. There's things I look back on before I first picked up a gun and think well, it's basically burned into my memory now but before I just did my own research, learning from others, practicing, and a couple formal courses it wasn't even on my mind.

I also agree with you that it should not be forced upon anybody from any government, it's a choice one has to make and only on their own can they make that choice. I'm not going to say they can't carry a firearm if they don't make that choice (and I do know you weren't implying that at all) as it's their right to do so.

My overall stance on required training for just about anything in this world is this. If you have to require someone to do something, you are mandating that the individual makes the choice to do so. If you force somebody to make the choice, they won't take much away from the experience - if anything at all - unless they so choose to make that choice on their own free will.

 

[msteinhilber]

Most regulations are passed under the guise of "safety."

Most arguments against the free exercise of ones right come under the guise of "safety."

And unless more people speak out against these sorts of practices for our "safety" regardless of where the regulations land and which rights they restrict, we'll just be headed more and more to a complete nanny state much like the UK is now. I've watched many documentaries, interviews, news broadcasts where UK citizens are asked what they feel about any of the gross abuses of power their government commits and more often than not the masses might not be all too fond of it - but "it helps keep us safe".

I'll worry about keeping myself safe all on my own, thank you.

 

[Flipper]

Dane county deputy shoots unarmed man.

Being a trained LEO does not prevent a judgement error. Wonder if the "state of mind" question necessary for a self defense plea will be raised.

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/loc...cle_57feabf4-d7b4-11df-bb26-001cc4c03286.html

According to an earlier news report, an individual who lives a block away from the shooting heard one gunshot followed by a pause of several seconds, and then heard a quick four or five more gunshots, and then a couple seconds later a final shot.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_0ba78e56-d71e-11df-9da6-001cc4c002e0.html

 

[springfield 1911]

There is nothing wrong with training, The resistance to training that you find here stems from the push by trainers for a ccw permit system which would mandate taking their course. (and of course others. ) We have enough mandates we don't need anymore, Remember that every time a new fee is required it makes us poorer, These trainers should be totally behind us on a repeal of 941.23 , commen sense would dictate that offering a free will training course would be better received than the alternative mandated .

Many Wi. residents live if their lucky, live pay check to pay check and are able to stay a float and put a little away for a rainy day, So with a permit system those who would find themselves in a need to cc would have to choose between personal safety or violating a law by not having a permit because it,s not possible due to finances at the time, A repeal of 941.23 would not be a hardship on low income residents who would choose to carry concealed and if to take a course should they choose when financially able.

As of right now How many people choose to oc and of those that oc how many know people who do not oc who would conceal carry if 941.23 were repealed.