Reason Number 1 why OC is better than CC

[JKTex]

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Section32 wrote:

Very interesting thread. Ixtow, thank you for taking the time and making the effort to defend your position against all comers. I am new to OC (that's why I'm here). I used to only CC until I got involved in my city's very first OC walk through the downtown streets. What a liberating experience! The poster above explains the real reason why most GOs CC instead of OC: fear. They (we) are afraid of being detained or what the neighbors think or ramifications at work or......fill in the blank. Your steadfast defense of all the reasons to OC helps many of us to gather the nerve to take the leap. I hope we can all say that we are stout defenders of our Constitution and the gun community in general. There is no doubt in my mind that the OC movement is the 'Tip of the Spear'.

ixtow? I should have quoted that so it was clear what I was responding to.

 

[marshaul]

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JKTex wrote:

xtow, reading your basis for OC, I saw one thing clearly from the beginning.  You want to intimidate people around you by putting your gun in their face, figuratively speaking.

You, sir, are an idiot. There's little surprise you're the type to post and then refuse to engage in debate.

 

[JKTex]

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marshaul wrote:

JKTex wrote:

xtow, reading your basis for OC, I saw one thing clearly from the beginning. You want to intimidate people around you by putting your gun in their face, figuratively speaking.

You, sir, are an idiot. There's little surprise you're the type to post and then refuse to engage in debate.

You're pretty blind, can't read or just completely ignorant from all that San Fransisco Kalifornia aire. What you quoted was so offensive? It's an observation based on what he said, that he wants the gun out there to be seen so potential bad guys are intimidated by it.

Do you have a problem with that or is this a San Fransisco thing?

 

[ixtow]

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JKTex wrote:

marshaul wrote:

JKTex wrote:

xtow, reading your basis for OC, I saw one thing clearly from the beginning. You want to intimidate people around you by putting your gun in their face, figuratively speaking.

You, sir, are an idiot. There's little surprise you're the type to post and then refuse to engage in debate.

You're pretty blind, can't read or just completely ignorant from all that San Fransisco Kalifornia aire. What you quoted was so offensive? It's an observation based on what he said, that he wants the gun out there to be seen so potential bad guys are intimidated by it.

Do you have a problem with that or is this a San Fransisco thing?

Here, try this: http://opencarry.org/opencarry.html

Now, where is the location next to my name?

You're a @#$%ing idiot.

Even if I wanted to 'put it out there so everyone can see it,' it isn't an option.

I've lived the consequences of CC. I posted these 2 threads to point out how often CCers believe in fairy tales about what their hidden gun can and cannot do. I was one of them. If your agenda is so precious to you that you must protect it with pointless insults all akin to talking about my penis, you prove only how small and broken your own thought process really is.

I have done nothing but point out very unpleasant reality, and I have been attacked for being the messenger of what you don't want to hear. Oh, and responded to bull@#$% and insults in turn. Yet still, even staring you right in the face, both seem to escape you.

Is being brainwashed, arrogant, and hateful REALLY that precious to you?

My preeecious..... Sad, really.

 

[Bikenut]

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JKTex wrote:

Holy cow, what a thread. I first saw it and thought, "...hey, this might be good." HA, I can't believe I almost fell for it. It's the same old thing. A guy that thinks he's right and the world is wrong and he wants to make sure everyone knows it. Is there an app for that?

ixtow, reading your basis for OC, I saw one thing clearly from the beginning. You want to intimidate people around you by putting your gun in their face, figuratively speaking. You want to use your gun as your 1st line of defense. That's dangerous, both in practice and as a way of thinking. That kind of thinking is as much a threat, or more, that true anti-gun folks. It give anti's an example of they perceive to be the dangerous, "Hollywood" attitude of gun owners when in fact, it's likely the minority voice, although the loudest voice screaming in their ears.

What are you afraid of? That anti gun folks will seize upon open carry in order to enact more restrictive gun laws? You are aware that the purpose of the anti gun agenda is to constantly enact more restrictive gun laws regardless of if there is open carry or concealed carry?

Seems to me you are only concerned with protecting what you want... CC.. and not interested in the 2nd Amendment at all. You do understand that requiring a permit to carry is an infringement?

I'm 100% supportive of open carry and hope that the next session here in Texas it'll make more headway. But I'm not blind to the fact that OC or CC or firearms in general are NOT what protect people. They are a tool, 1 of many tools for defense when needed. A last resort at that.

If you are 100% supportive of OC why are you knocking one of the benefits of OC? The defensive benefit of a gun in plain sight acting as a preventative measure?

In your scenario, you've left out the #1, simple 1st line if defense that will reduce you and your families chance of being a victim to almost 0. Awareness. Educating yourself, your kids, your whole family about what criminals don't like in their victims is key. Scanning crowds making passive eye contact is a major red flag to the bad guy with his sights set on you. It's something a 3 yr old kid can do.

No one is leaving anything out. You are missing that the discussion isn't about awareness... the discussion is about the concept that a gun in plain sight tends to act as a preventative measure by informing bad guys it would be wise to choose a different victim. Bad guy sees the OC gun and knows the carrier is not going to be an easy victim... bad guy does NOT see a CC'ed gun and assumes the person is an easy victim. Therefore... OC sends a message to bad guys that CC never can.

Like it or not, OCing in most cases, like your mall example, will cause more problems than I want to deal with. I shouldn't feel that way but it's the cold hard truth; you can't control other peoples emotions or actions.

If you are afraid to OC due to not being willing to face perhaps being ostricized by other people... or having to defend the legality of your actions to police... then don't OC.. but please don't help the anti gun agenda by trying to make yourself feel better about yourself with attacking those who do OC.

One of the good things about OC is to address other people's emotions by making the sight of a gun so commonplace it eventually generates no emotional response of any kind.

I don't wear my wallet on my sleeve, or my keys hanging off my belt and I don't need to hang my gun out in the open for no other reason that as a deterrent either. It's a tool that I need to be close and ready when and if I need it. If that means "deep cover" or open with a jacket hanging over or the rare case it could mean completly open, it doesn't matter, but I don't need to use it to intimidate people from labeling me as a victim. A split second of eye contact stops things you never knew were in the works just fine.

You said.. "I don't need to use it to intimidate people from labeling me as a victim." May I ask exactly what would be wrong with a bad guy who changed his mind about making you a victim because he saw your OC'ed gun?

Seems to me that if my OC'ed gun caused a bad guy to decide not to attack me then my gun did the job it was intended for... protection from being harmed by bad guys... without even having to be used!

If you are relying on a split second of eye contact to stop a criminal then why do you bother to CC?

Also, if you have a hard time drawing a concealed weapon, you aren't practicing enough or you're not using the right gear. Sure, open and in tactical speed gear would a split second quicker, but that split second isn't going to make the difference you're trying to convince people it will. You won't convince me that 2.1 seconds vs. anything faster will make the difference in keeping your child from being snatched. And if it does, you didn't do your job in the seconds prior.

Actually I partially agree with you on draw time, although OC has the advantage of not having any clothing at all in the way that might not work out in real life like it did in practice... but then.. again, this isn't a discussion about draw times but is about OC having a deterrant effect.

Hollywood cowboys with loud mouths will only hurt open carry efforts.

I kinda like cowboys. They stood up for what was right... fought the bad guys... kissed the girl... and wore their guns in plain sight.

Why is it that folks who don't like something that someone else is doing always label them with a derogatory inference?

FYI, I have no intention of debating this here. But from most of the replies, there is no debating the subject, only arguing whos got the biggest...I mean, that one is right and the other is wrong.

And then, after a derogatory label, comes the obligatory penis insult. Tell you what Sir: When your only arguments are misdirection about the topic being discussed, name calling, and insults your argument................ fails.

JKTex wrote:

Holy cow, what a thread. I first saw it and thought, "...hey, this might be good." HA, I can't believe I almost fell for it. It's the same old thing. A guy that thinks he's right and the world is wrong and he wants to make sure everyone knows it. Is there an app for that?

Seems to me that with your post you did exactly what you are complaining about.

My response is in blue....

 

[ixtow]

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It's amazing to see people who are so oblivious, they don't even hear their own words.

I've never attempted to convince anyone that 'my way' is anything, or even identify what it might be. I could list the lies in his argument until my face turns blue, but i think people with brains of their own can think for themselves and see what my actual motive has been all along.

Inventing ulterior motives to poke with a stick and win against is so old... I don't think anyone who counts falls for that crap.

 

[Bikenut]

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JKTex wrote:

marshaul wrote:

JKTex wrote:

xtow, reading your basis for OC, I saw one thing clearly from the beginning. You want to intimidate people around you by putting your gun in their face, figuratively speaking.

You, sir, are an idiot. There's little surprise you're the type to post and then refuse to engage in debate.

You're pretty blind, can't read or just completely ignorant from all that San Fransisco Kalifornia aire. What you quoted was so offensive? It's an observation based on what he said, that he wants the gun out there to be seen so potential bad guys are intimidated by it.

Do you have a problem with that or is this a San Fransisco thing?

And that part I added bold to is supposed to be a bad thing? I think intimidating a would be attacker into changing his mind and not attacking is a very good thing.

Unless there is something wrong with using passive intimidation as a self defense tool?

JKTex wrote:

-snip-
FYI, I have no intention of debating this here. -snip-

Oh... and .. for some reason I knew you didn't mean this at all.:what:

 

[Bikenut]

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There are many instances of criminals backing off/giving up when their would be victim draws a gun and no shots need be fired. (the 'net can be searched for those statistics if interested). This alone would tend to lend credence to the assertion that the mere sight of a gun is enough to change a criminal's mind.

So... wouldn't it be much better for the criminal to see the gun in a holster in plain sight .. OC.. and change his mind before initiating the attack thus ending the situation before it even begins?

Or... is it preferable to have the attack begin before having to bring the gun... CC... into the situation?

I know which one I prefer.

 

[ixtow]

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Bikenut wrote:

There are many instances of criminals backing off/giving up when their would be victim draws a gun and no shots need be fired. (the 'net can be searched for those statistics if interested). This alone would tend to lend credence to the assertion that the mere sight of a gun is enough to change a criminal's mind.

So... wouldn't it be much better for the criminal to see the gun in a holster in plain sight .. OC.. and change his mind before initiating the attack thus ending the situation before it even begins?

Or... is it preferable to have the attack begin before having to bring the gun... CC... into the situation?

I know which one I prefer.

No, being logical means that you have an ego problem and want to 'wave your piece' around and 'strut' and it's all phallic... You're compensating for a long list of metnal issues that your accuser exposes in themselves by creating the totally unfounded argument.

Just like any other anti.... Some anti's are just liars. Others are just honestly fooled.

 

[Bikenut]

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ixtow wrote:

Bikenut wrote:

There are many instances of criminals backing off/giving up when their would be victim draws a gun and no shots need be fired. (the 'net can be searched for those statistics if interested). This alone would tend to lend credence to the assertion that the mere sight of a gun is enough to change a criminal's mind.

So... wouldn't it be much better for the criminal to see the gun in a holster in plain sight .. OC.. and change his mind before initiating the attack thus ending the situation before it even begins?

Or... is it preferable to have the attack begin before having to bring the gun... CC... into the situation?

I know which one I prefer.

No, being logical means that you have an ego problem and want to 'wave your piece' around and 'strut' and it's all phallic... You're compensating for a long list of metnal issues that your accuser exposes in themselves by creating the totally unfounded argument.

Just like any other anti.... Some anti's are just liars. Others are just honestly fooled.

I had to read that twice to figure out you were agreeing with me..... :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[darthmord]

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ixtow wrote:

You're CCing in a Shopping Mall with your 7 year old Son. Someone comes from behind and grabs him. By the time you manage to draw your weapon from deep cover CC, you own child has become the kidnapper's human shield.

Now, what good is your 'element of surprise?'

Go ahead and tell me how the kidnapper would have just attacked me first. Cite examples of the prior in one hand, and the former in the other hand, and tell me which one fills up first.

I don't think a kid deserves to go through that. OC prevents, CC does not.

If you were OCing in that mall, do you honestly believe that kidnapper would have done that, after seeing the gun in plain view? Do you not think kidnappers watch and 'case' a person before doing such a thing?

The only 'surprise' CC grants, is for those who do meet with the need, and realize that CC falls horribly short. The only person who can argue that CC present a tactical advantage of surprise, is that person who has never actually needed it. The 'surprise' is all on you when you find yourself in such a position.

Skidmark, another gentleman, and I were talking about OC vs CC as we were walking toward Hooters after visiting Norfolk Vity Council. I noted that several species of insects actually have visually striking patterns and images on their bodies / wings. Moths and butterflies come to mind. These patterns often resemble their predators' predators. Why?

To visually offend their predator and encourage it to NOT attack them. They are in fact, openly carrying their primary defense and it works. It discourages the bad guys (the predators) from attacking them.

But in the end, it's really a matter (IMO) of choosing which mode of carry is best for **YOU** given your specific circumstances at that time. For me, I typically CC as it's simply more convenient for the places I often go. For when I *CAN* or*MUST* OC, I do so willingly.

 

[sooeey2u]

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I stopped reading at the first page.....wow

 

[McX]

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sigh, there are many valid points on boths sides. me; i just wish our state would spell out, and embrace something. i guess i should beat it off of here, as i don't exist, as i don't carry in the public sector yet, as i refuse to put up with leo problems. but still i try to support the movement every other way i can. i don't know if that counts or not. i must admit, i'm getting very impatient here, and yearn to oc. i pledge and give my full support to the bretheren on here, who go out daily, and take an ass whoopin, or do the pavement kiss, to get accpetance of all our rights. i defy the powers that be by carrying at my work, on private property, and invite others who visit to do so as well. makes me feel small, but it's the best i can do. for me it's oc, cc, but give me something, and give it to me in my lifetime damn it. let's try to remember though our opinions are all different and varied, we are all united here.

 

[since9]

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Well, this is fraught with "what-if" and conditions which will vary widely in any such kidnap situation.

I've a nine-year-old, so the first thing after I drew my weapon would be to say, "Hold still, Son."

The second thing I would do is to look for a clean, consistent shot, as most nine-year-old boys do not provide more than 70% coverage for an adult. If I got a disabling shot, I'd second that with a kill shot.

If I couldn't find a shot, I'd yell to the crowd, "Call 911! Tell them my son has been kidnapped!" until I was sure than the police were on their way.

But I'd keep him in my sights, conditions permitting.

Naturally, if he offed my son, he'd be gone, as dead as a 16+1 setup could make him. 3 seconds.

I'd then attend to my son!

 

[ixtow]

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since9 wrote:

If I couldn't find a shot, I'd yell to the crowd, "Call 911! Tell them my son has been kidnapped!" until I was sure than the police were on their way.

And this is one of those what-ifs. Real crowds don't respond like they do on TV. They are all thinking their own thoughts in their own little world, making noise, etc... You can scream and yell and all you want, but the few who are close to you are the only ones who will be aware, and they will just try to get away presuming YOU'RE the bad one because you have a gun and they've been told to assume that. The idea of helping never crosses their minds, and the certainly don't whip out their cell phones while you are near them, cuz you might kill them.... Just like their TV told them to think....

 

[since9]

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ixtow wrote:

And this is one of those what-ifs. Real crowds don't respond like they do on TV.

Of course not. However, I've been in several incidents (at the scene at three accidents, two brewing fights) where the crowd needed direction, so I directed, and they listened. I had to tell them twice, but they do listen. Most crowds don't know what to do, or if they do, they're waiting for someone else to do it, so when someone walks into their midst with calm confidence and authority, they will generally follow simple direction commensurate with what their gut and experience say, "yeah, that sounds like the right thing to do."

 

[ixtow]

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since9 wrote:

ixtow wrote:

And this is one of those what-ifs. Real crowds don't respond like they do on TV.

Of course not. However, I've been in several incidents (at the scene at three accidents, two brewing fights) where the crowd needed direction, so I directed, and they listened. I had to tell them twice, but they do listen. Most crowds don't know what to do, or if they do, they're waiting for someone else to do it, so when someone walks into their midst with calm confidence and authority, they will generally follow simple direction commensurate with what their gut and experience say, "yeah, that sounds like the right thing to do."

Sure, that's great.... But when the 'incident' is in progress, gun is drawn, and the person with the gun is giving the instructions and doesn't have a uniform and a badge, as TV tells them such a person should.... It just doesn't go well.

Sheeple freak out, don't hear anything you say, assume you're there to do harm, no way in hell they're going to help you, etc...

This is another way that, I postulate, OC might be beneficial. If people already know you are armed, see that you're not doing anything bad, the 'he has a gun' thing settles. It doesn't come as an all out shock that ceases brain function (as trained by TV) if/when you are forced to remove it from it's holster. Those around you have already come to realize, grudgingly or not, that you're not the 'bad guy.' Some people might just still have a functioning brain at that stage.

I've not had the misfortune of testing this theory, but it makes sense to me. I do have the experience that when you draw from concealed after a violent incident is already underway (because concealed does not and cannot prevent one), that 'the crowd' is of no help, and so far, does nothing but make the situation even worse out of fear and stupidity...

'The guy with the gun' has been portrayed as calm and confident, and totally unstable and wigging out, on their TVs. Your demeanor means nothing unless you have demonstrate in advance a different persona than the one they have been taught. You can't demonstrate a real, non-TV 'guy with gun' persona of any sort, if you aren't a guy with a gun. If you are carrying concealed, guess what, you can't do it... If no one sees the gun, then you aren't doing any good.

 

[since9]

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ixtow wrote:

Sure, that's great.... But when the 'incident' is in progress, gun is drawn...

Dude, no. Two were traffic accidents. There was no threat, therefore no need to draw a weapon. The third was a crowd (50+) scene. One does NOT walk into the midst of that sort of scene with a drawn weapon unless one is willing to invite ridiculous disaster.

As it was, it happened a block from where I lived. I figured a "bare-naked" approach would catch everyone off guard and quell the hostility, so I walked into the midst wearing nothing more than a white t-shirt and a pair of shorts.

Yes, it was summertime.

It wasn't the uniform. It was simply my demeanor. The crowd calmed down and dispersed. The owner then came out and offered me free meals for a year.

I took him up on his offer just twice.

 

[ixtow]

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since9 wrote:

ixtow wrote:

Sure, that's great.... But when the 'incident' is in progress, gun is drawn...

Dude, no. Two were traffic accidents. There was no threat, therefore no need to draw a weapon. The third was a crowd (50+) scene. One does NOT walk into the midst of that sort of scene with a drawn weapon unless one is willing to invite ridiculous disaster.

As it was, it happened a block from where I lived. I figured a "bare-naked" approach would catch everyone off guard and quell the hostility, so I walked into the midst wearing nothing more than a white t-shirt and a pair of shorts.

Yes, it was summertime.

It wasn't the uniform. It was simply my demeanor. The crowd calmed down and dispersed. The owner then came out and offered me free meals for a year.

I took him up on his offer just twice.

You've created an entirely different context than the one in play. Of course what you say applies to THOSE circumstances. But it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

[Ironbar]

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ixtow wrote:

You're CCing in a Shopping Mall with your 7 year old Son. Someone comes from behind and grabs him. By the time you manage to draw your weapon from deep cover CC, you own child has become the kidnapper's human shield.

Now, what good is your 'element of surprise?'

Go ahead and tell me how the kidnapper would have just attacked me first. Cite examples of the prior in one hand, and the former in the other hand, and tell me which one fills up first.

I don't think a kid deserves to go through that. OC prevents, CC does not.

If you were OCing in that mall, do you honestly believe that kidnapper would have done that, after seeing the gun in plain view? Do you not think kidnappers watch and 'case' a person before doing such a thing?

The only 'surprise' CC grants, is for those who do meet with the need, and realize that CC falls horribly short. The only person who can argue that CC present a tactical advantage of surprise, is that person who has never actually needed it. The 'surprise' is all on you when you find yourself in such a position.

Ohhh, I absolutely ADORE these "what if" threads!! LOVE em' in fact! (God they're fun!)

OK, here are the tope ten things I'd do if a whacko came up and grabbed my child in a crowded mall with me right beside, (who in this case is eight years old, and a girl):

10) Pull out my gun and kill them.

9) Pull out my gun and kill them.

8) Pull out my gun and kill them.

7) Pull out my gun and kill them.

6) Pull out my gun and kill them.

5) Pull out my gun and kill them.

4) Pull out my gun and kill them, then get coffee at Starbucks.

3) Pull out my gun and kill them.

2) Pull out my gun and kill them.

1) Pull out my gun and kill them.

Your "what if" scenario is retarded for lack of better terminology. Child snatching is a comparatively rare crime, and the scumbags who do it are opportunists who don't go looking to snatch kids in crowded malls. I don't know where you people dream up these kinds of things, but seriously, take two Stresstabs and get a true concept of reality.