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Shooting in a gun free zone, Seattle Pacific University

Primus

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Oct 24, 2013
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A bad guy intent on MAXIMUM death would not use a gun.

Gasoline
Propane
Homemade poison gas
Homemade poison
Et cetera

If you want to kill everyone in a house, you don't shoot the house you block the doors and burn it down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

Is 'lack of imagination' a nicer phrase than dimwitted?

How about ignorant, regarding history and literature. Is pointing out that someone is 'ignorant' nicer than pointing out they are 'dimwitted?'

I'll admit that sure, any time more lead flys down range the chance of a hit increases. But over all, you're probably talking a few percentage points, which is likely a "plus / minus margin of error" scenario.

Ok so I'll try again.... Do u carry just a revolver with no spare ammo?

Or do u carry 3 revolvers to come up with the same amount?

Sure car bombs work well too. But not same effect as shooting lots of people with lots of bullets.

If you want to run from the topic and go down the rabbit hole with propane discussion so be it. But I was talking about actual things we do.... Like carry guns and ammo. We were talking about shootings. Not what the most effective means EVER.

Maybe you carry propane tanks as a means of defense....



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JoeSparky

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Hope this isn't wasted on those nitpicking and "argueing"...

Limiting the capacity of ANY magazine or clip is IMO a violation of the SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED part of the US Constitutional 2nd amendment.
 

Primus

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Hope this isn't wasted on those nitpicking and "argueing"...

Limiting the capacity of ANY magazine or clip is IMO a violation of the SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED part of the US Constitutional 2nd amendment.

That's certainly a valid view and I respect it.

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Dave_pro2a

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Ok so I'll try again.... Do u carry just a revolver with no spare ammo?

Or do u carry 3 revolvers to come up with the same amount?

Sure car bombs work well too. But not same effect as shooting lots of people with lots of bullets.

If you want to run from the topic and go down the rabbit hole with propane discussion so be it. But I was talking about actual things we do.... Like carry guns and ammo. We were talking about shootings. Not what the most effective means EVER.

Maybe you carry propane tanks as a means of defense....



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What I do is irreverent.

What does the average criminal who commits a school shooting do?
 

Primus

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But disagree? And will enforce infringements?

I'm on the fence about mag caps.

And as far as "enforcing infringements" I happen to shoot and hang with alot of guys who have larger magazines and never said a word.

Luckily for me the only time "enforcing infringements" comes into play is when the guy has already shot someone else or done something else illegal. If you haven't done something else incredibly dumb/harmful then your good in my book.

In fact, within the last few months went to court FOR a buddy to fight his large capacity mag charge. Luckily they dropped the charges.

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Dave_pro2a

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I'm on the fence about mag caps.

And as far as "enforcing infringements" I happen to shoot and hang with alot of guys who have larger magazines and never said a word.

Luckily for me the only time "enforcing infringements" comes into play is when the guy has already shot someone else or done something else illegal. If you haven't done something else incredibly dumb/harmful then your good in my book.

In fact, within the last few months went to court FOR a buddy to fight his large capacity mag charge. Luckily they dropped the charges.

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Ahh the glory of the 'Crown's power.'

Discretionary enforcement to protect friends, add on charges to further punish non-friends.
 
Last edited:

Primus

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Ahh the glory of the 'Crown's power.'

Discretionary enforcement to protect friends, add on charges to further punish non-friends.

Lol yea exactly..... OR discretionary power to help the good guys and not help the bad guys.

But sure... Whatever you want to read into it.

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Dave_pro2a

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Lol yea exactly..... OR discretionary power to help the good guys and not help the bad guys.

But sure... Whatever you want to read into it.

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Hmmm, so if the law is applied fairly and evenly it creates injustice.

Yeah let's solve that by picking and choosing when to enforce the law in such a fashion as to protect the friends of cops.
 

Primus

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Hmmm, so if the law is applied fairly and evenly it creates injustice.

Yeah let's solve that by picking and choosing when to enforce the law in such a fashion as to protect the friends of cops.

Again.... Your twisting/equating what I said (good people) into what you WANT to see (friends of cops).

And its not "protecting" anyone. Its the very point of discretion. If/when you have a genuinely good person (based on what available info you have) you HELP them. In this case we were taking about a particular law regarding magazines.

I meet plenty if guys on a monthly/weekly basis that I know are in violation of firearms laws. I've never nor will I ever get them in a jam. Here's the key, its not because they are my "friends" for many if them I just meet in passing at the range. Its because they are decent people not bothering anyone.

Now if one of these guys decided they wanted to do something really dumb and dangerous or violent, then I'd be less inclined to look the other way.

Hard pressed to see the problem with this. Normal people understand this and appreciate it usually.

Bad guys- no help.
Good guys- get help.



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Dave_pro2a

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Hard pressed to see the problem with this. Normal people understand this and appreciate it usually.

Bad guys- no help.
Good guys- get help.

I just simply cannot believe a cop actively endorses uneven application of the law.

Shocking (not really).

I understand that every person should be equal under the law. That a law prone to catching 'good guys' in its web is... a bad law. You don't fix a bad law by uneven application, based on the whims and biases of police and prosecutors. You fix a bad law by repealing it.

Hard pressed to see the problem with this. Normal people understand this and appreciate it usually.

[strike]Bad guys[/strike] Lawbreaker #1 - no help.
[strike]Good guys[/strike] Lawbreaker #2 - get help.

Maybe the above edits can help with your vision problem.
 
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mikeyb

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Bothell
Mag limits are pretty much pointless.

There is only one scenario where mag limits are of any concern- when two forces are combating. In non-combat life, it's a moot point. When response time is minutes, a second here or there reloading isn't going to matter.

When a shooter is walking into an area that is target-rich and with likely zero defensive capabilities, they know they have 3-5 minutes of uninterrupted time.

There's no possible way for LE to collect and destroy the millions of 20, 30, or 40 round magazines. It'd be like trying to round up all the Catcher in the Rye books.

Diane Feinstein uses a study on mag limits in Maryland (iirc) to advocate banning of "high capacity" magazines. But the conclusion she draws from the study is wrong. Mag limits won't prevent crime. Not even close. The study she quotes actually says at crime scenes, during the 1994AWB, high capacity magazines were found with less frequency than the time before the AWB. How does that show mag limits decrease crime?

There's another study that accounts for the crimes involving a gun, and I believe the average number of shots was 4. NSSF has a writeup: http://www.nssf.org/factsheets/PDF/HighCapMag.pdf

What people lack is a frame of reference. What needs to be shown to the sheeple is a split-screen timed video. On one side, someone shooting 200 rounds in 10 magazines at a range. The other side, someone walking down the sidewalk, or waiting for a coffee, or jogging around a track. Then show another comparison with the estimated time Lanza took, versus people just walking. Show people how long 5 minutes really is. Then contrast that with the 15 seconds it'd take to open a gun safe (or a SRO response), sneak up behind the lil bast**d, and end the threat.
 

Primus

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I just simply cannot believe a cop actively endorses uneven application of the law.

Shocking (not really).

I understand that every person should be equal under the law. That a law prone to catching 'good guys' in its web is... a bad law. You don't fix a bad law by uneven application, based on the whims and biases of police and prosecutors. You fix a bad law by repealing it.



Maybe the above edits can help with your vision problem.

What your failing to see is that until the law is repealed then it is in affect

So either you choose to enforce it or you don't.

Option a enforce on EVERYONE. That's means real decent people will get screwed. I vote no on that.

Option B enforce on NO ONE. That means real bad guys (like you know... The guys we carry guns to protect us and our families from?) Will get away with it. One less tool to get them away from yours and mine.

Option C enforce on guys you know are bad (the dude that just pulled the gun on someone for a purse) and leave the good people alone (the guy that's out with his family or at the range with his kids or a million other good guy scenarios).

And my vision is quite clear. I mean it when I use good and bad. I'll make it even simpler. Bad guy- person you carry guns to protect yourself and others from. Good guy- the people your carrying a gun to protect.

Being a "lawbreaker" does NOT make you a bad person.

Finally, of anyone's vision is off I believe its yours. Appears to be a bit cloudy with some animosity. If you ever make your way up North let me know, I'll supply ammo and first round after. Hopefully that would clear your vision a bit. That is a sincere offer, but I will disengage further on this topic. We will most likely never agree on it and its just going in circles and wasting space.

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Primus

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Mag limits are pretty much pointless.

There is only one scenario where mag limits are of any concern- when two forces are combating. In non-combat life, it's a moot point. When response time is minutes, a second here or there reloading isn't going to matter.

When a shooter is walking into an area that is target-rich and with likely zero defensive capabilities, they know they have 3-5 minutes of uninterrupted time.

There's no possible way for LE to collect and destroy the millions of 20, 30, or 40 round magazines. It'd be like trying to round up all the Catcher in the Rye books.

Diane Feinstein uses a study on mag limits in Maryland (iirc) to advocate banning of "high capacity" magazines. But the conclusion she draws from the study is wrong. Mag limits won't prevent crime. Not even close. The study she quotes actually says at crime scenes, during the 1994AWB, high capacity magazines were found with less frequency than the time before the AWB. How does that show mag limits decrease crime?

There's another study that accounts for the crimes involving a gun, and I believe the average number of shots was 4. NSSF has a writeup: http://www.nssf.org/factsheets/PDF/HighCapMag.pdf

What people lack is a frame of reference. What needs to be shown to the sheeple is a split-screen timed video. On one side, someone shooting 200 rounds in 10 magazines at a range. The other side, someone walking down the sidewalk, or waiting for a coffee, or jogging around a track. Then show another comparison with the estimated time Lanza took, versus people just walking. Show people how long 5 minutes really is. Then contrast that with the 15 seconds it'd take to open a gun safe (or a SRO response), sneak up behind the lil bast**d, and end the threat.

I actually agree with your statement that it only matters when two forces are combating.

So think about this. If your on the defense somewhere that means your in "combat" with that person. So what would benefit you? Them having a 100rd drum or 5rds and speed loaders?

Also, again I agree it always takes time for help to arrive. But once help arrives, do want that help to actually be able to stop the threat? Or get in a full blown firefight that puts innocents in danger from BOTH sides. Remember, cops can't shoot. So personally I want them having to send as few rounds down range as possible.

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OC for ME

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Cops are notoriously inept at picking out the good guys from the bad guys. Not that they can't, in most cases, they just won't.

So, all guys are bad and we'll figure out who is good later. If some cops make a mistake, well, there are plenty of good guys to go around, is there not?
 

Dave_pro2a

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Cops are notoriously inept at picking out the good guys from the bad guys.

Ya don't say.

college_community_shooting-11.jpg
 

rightwinglibertarian

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Mar 22, 2014
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......Its the very point of discretion. If/when you have a genuinely good person (based on what available info you have) you HELP them. In this case we were taking about a particular law regarding magazines.

I meet plenty if guys on a monthly/weekly basis that I know are in violation of firearms laws. I've never nor will I ever get them in a jam. Here's the key, its not because they are my "friends" for many if them I just meet in passing at the range. Its because they are decent people not bothering anyone.

I'm no friend of LEOs as a rule but this I respect. it's along the same lines as LEOs not enforcing the NY SAFE Act. Trust, LEO or not must be earned. Now an LEO that sees a firearms 'violation' and chooses to ignore it based on the fast there is no reasonable suspicion of another crime taking place and lack of threat is a good cop. This comes from a person who is likely one of the more militant 2A supporters. just my 2 cents thrown in.



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sudden valley gunner

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I'm on the fence about mag caps.

And as far as "enforcing infringements" I happen to shoot and hang with alot of guys who have larger magazines and never said a word.

Luckily for me the only time "enforcing infringements" comes into play is when the guy has already shot someone else or done something else illegal. If you haven't done something else incredibly dumb/harmful then your good in my book.

In fact, within the last few months went to court FOR a buddy to fight his large capacity mag charge. Luckily they dropped the charges.

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So you are on the fence about your oath to the constitution? Tell us again how you fought for our "liberties".

You apply the constitution unevenly to your self?

You will enforce a law you know is a bad law/unconstitutional law because you are doing your job following orders?
 
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