• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

So I had always heard Serpa's were good...

Tomahawk

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
5,117
Location
4 hours south of HankT, ,
imported post

wylde007 wrote:
Tomahawk wrote:
I've been thinking about a Serpa BH for my 1911 for a while.
They only make one model (for each side draw) that I know if. If you have the 4¼" barrel then you have more holster than gun, if you catch my meaning.

I was a little disappointed when I discovered this.

Otherwise a fine product. Still works as designed.
It's a government-sized Taurus PT1911 with a standard length barrel. I replaced the ambi safety with a single-side WIlson Combat safety, so it should fit pretty much any 1911A1 holster.
 

MSC 45ACP

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
2,840
Location
Newport News, Virginia, USA
imported post

Grapeshot wrote:
The Serpa ND issue is IMO training related and is not the fault of the holster but the user.

Never train/practice pushing the release on a Serpa with the tip of your finger. Just as reaching for the trigger before the gun completely clears your leather holster is a recipe for disaster, so too is pushing the release on a Serpa with a curled finger tip.

Correct procedure is for the index finger to be fully extended (straight) next to memory ridge. Then begin the draw stroke sliding your straight extended finger over the release. The result will be an effortless, slick draw with your finger extended straight along the slide - where it belongs, prior to being fully on target.

Yata hey
+1
I got Midget a SERPAand she LOVES IT. She practicesdrawing every day (unloaded of course). I've read several stories about them being banned fromIDPA andIPSC matches. I think its very sad to blame the equipment when 99% of all ND's are the fault of the shooter, not the equipment.

REAL AD's are EXTREMELYrare. They happen when the WEAPON MALFUNCTIONS, notthe loose nut behind the sights(HankT, ifyou are reading this, that means the shooter). The term "Accidental Discharge" sends me into alow earth orbit! Absolutely drives me crazy! MOST modern pistols can only shoot by a DELIBERATE pull of the trigger. Many of them have a some sort of safety block to prevent any kind of AD.

If you are using the SERPA CORRECTLY, your trigger finger will end up indexed along the SLIDE (as it should be). Midget does this every time and has NEVER had her finger touching the trigger, no matter how fast she draws. Same with shooting at the range.

IMHO, the knuckleheads that have ND's at shooting matches have not done enough dry-firing practice and have no business entering a match unprepared mentally. Competitive shooting requires a great deal of MENTAL preparedness. You MUST have your poop together before and during the match. it doesn't matter how fast you can draw your pistol in a match. If you are unsafe, you are thrown off the range without question.

If you OC or CC a pistol, it goes without saying that you better know your equipment and how to use it when the feces hits the rotating oscillator!

I have a confession: Since learning about the Good Sam shooting in Richmond a few weeks ago, I've given it a great deal of thought. I've practiced dry firing and shoot every chance I get. I set up an air pistol range in the living room and practice regularly. I've even had dreams about self-defense shooting situations and wake up in the middle of the night. I've been walking around in Condition Yellow+ and go to Orange regularly whenever I see someone that "just doesn't look right". Today, I took my son to the movies and knew I had to CC in the movie theater. I should have also brought my OC holster because I've noticed people's manners seem to improve when you OC.

After the movies, we stopped at Bass Pro in Hampton and I went to the "gun department" while my son when to look at the fish. I looked at the SERPA rack and they didn't have one for my pistol. I can get it cheaper online anyway. I've been carrying my H&K USP 45 in a black ballistic nylon Bianchi thumb break holster, but I REALLY like the SERPA!!!

I was really disappointed to listen to the salesmenbehind the firearms counter at Bass Protalk to customers and show them pistols. I assumed one salesmanwas a complete idiot when he insisted the customer get a revolver rather than an automatic. This observation was confirmed when he stated to the customer that he had an ND with "an automatic pistol" and that was why he suggested a revolver... :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

Another salesman removed a revolver from the glass-topped counter and pointed it AT ME while he handled it. I clearly said "I'd really appreciate it if you didn't point that thing at me!" He gave ME a dirty look and mumbled something to the salesman next to him. I decided to leave before I got in trouble for pointing MY pistol at him. I didn't think that would be a very good idea. I SHOULD HAVE BEEN OCing. It may have improved his manners...
 

Glock_21Carrier

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2009
Messages
33
Location
, ,
imported post

MSC 45ACP wrote:
Grapeshot wrote:
The Serpa ND issue is IMO training related and is not the fault of the holster but the user.

Never train/practice pushing the release on a Serpa with the tip of your finger. Just as reaching for the trigger before the gun completely clears your leather holster is a recipe for disaster, so too is pushing the release on a Serpa with a curled finger tip.

Correct procedure is for the index finger to be fully extended (straight) next to memory ridge. Then begin the draw stroke sliding your straight extended finger over the release. The result will be an effortless, slick draw with your finger extended straight along the slide - where it belongs, prior to being fully on target.

Yata hey

Another salesman removed a revolver from the glass-topped counter and pointed it AT ME while he handled it. I clearly said "I'd really appreciate it if you didn't point that thing at me!" He gave ME a dirty look and mumbled something to the salesman next to him. I decided to leave before I got in trouble for pointing MY pistol at him. I didn't think that would be a very good idea. I SHOULD HAVE BEEN OCing. It may have improved his manners...
Salesman sounds about as squared away as the one salesman at Dominion Outdoors who told me if I put a folding stock on my TP9 it would automatically be a Class III haha.

Didn't bother to mention it would be an SBR. meh

Back on Serpa, Have one for XD, 1911, Glock 21 1913 rail. Never malfunction, or error in their service. comfortable and reliable in my opinion. But as I mentioned before on other threads, once you get it one, the crook will dang near take your pants too if he wants it off :p

Glocky
 

PavePusher

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
1,096
Location
Tucson, Arizona, USA
imported post

wylde007 wrote:
Tomahawk wrote:
I've been thinking about a Serpa BH for my 1911 for a while.
They only make one model (for each side draw) that I know if. If you have the 4¼" barrel then you have more holster than gun, if you catch my meaning.

I was a little disappointed when I discovered this.

Otherwise a fine product. Still works as designed.
O.K., I just walked all the way across the house to look at my 1911/SERPA combo. (Full size PT1911) It looks to me like you could trim the SERPA back with a box cutter or hobby knife, or a Dremel-type cutter without any harm. You'd loose the re-inforced lower edge, which would make the holster less resistant to impact damage at the lower lip, but if this is an issue, you might be doing something wrong. The only drawback I can see is that if you went backto a full-length model gun, you'd no longer have the holster extending past the muzzle/front sight, which could allow damage to the gun in the wrong circumstaces. I don't see a problem with the shorter barrel in thefull-length holster unless you are going for better concealment, which the SERPA holster really isn't particularly good for in the first place; can be done, but not the best tool for that task.
 

SoldierMedic

Lone Star Veteran
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
123
Location
Richmond, Virginia, USA
imported post

Interesting topic so far... on that note, I decided to conduct a test of my Serpa with one of my buddies. I usually carry a Glock 19 when I OC, and it is almost always in my Serpa holster with the pancake adapter (the one that goes over your belt, not the belt through the holster). I wanted to see what kind of retention my holster had depending on how tight my belt was, the width of the belt I was wearing, and the position from which a potential gun grabber came at me. (Disclaimer: Before anyone gets started, yes, we used a real Glock, and yes we both visually and manually inspected to ensure it was clear before we proceeded. There wasn't even a mag or ammo in the same room.) We went with the assumption that the grabber did not know how to operate the button portion of the holster, and that he simply was trying to grab the gun with brute force and somehow pull it off my body or out of the holster. All tests were done at full strength and at combat speed, with the good guy attempting to secure his firearm from the bad guy during the struggle.

So here is what we found:

First, if you notice on the pancake portion of the holster, there are some "teeth" that help the holster retain a grip on the fabric of your pants, and on your belt. You can see that there is a way to adjust the teeth for larger or smaller belts. Well, if you have a smaller width belt (1 inch), and the teeth are not pulled in around it, it can lead to problems. From the right side, my friend was able to grab the whole holster, gun and all, off my 1 inch belt simply by twisting it around in his hand and pulling upwards at the same time. Not good. We tried it again from the back (assailant standing behind you), and he was not able to yank it away from me, but I felt it slipping during the struggle. We tried both positions again, with my belt tightened down another notch to see if that made a difference. In both second scenarios, it was impossible for him to take my pistol. Just for shits and giggles, we tried it without a belt. Both ways, it came off after only a brief struggle.

Side note: My friend was not allowed to consciously attempt to push the button when grabbing for the pistol. Even so, during one struggle, he ended up coming in contact with it and yanked the pistol right out. Even he was surprised and just sat there staring at it for a sec before he was like "oh, my bad."

Conclusions: wear your belt tighter, or get a larger belt, or adjust the teeth on the paddle, or just use the belt loop thing if you want to wear this holster. Second, don't assume that everyone else is ignorant in the holster's operation, and even if they are, that they won't accidentally press the button and free your firearm. Third, don't wear this thing without a belt EVER. Fourth, be situationally aware and don't let bad guys get close enough to grab your firearm if at all possible.

Questions, comments, rants, and general lambasting of my lack of scientific method welcome.:D
 

nova

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2007
Messages
3,149
Location
US
imported post

same thing goes for any retention holster. If someone even accidently undid the snap on a thumb break, you can then remove the firearm from the holster. The key point is, don't let anyone get that close to your firearm to begin with, and in the event they do, don't just stand there and let them take it.
 

wylde007

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
3,035
Location
Va Beach, Occupied VA
imported post

@ PavePusher: no way am I cutting the holster. I said I was disappointed, not demoralized!:lol:

Naw, it's OK. 1911's not much of a CC gun anyway.

However, with the blued slide it's not a really good all-around carry anyhow, not in this Virginia humidity. Not in the summertime.
 

cREbralFIX

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Messages
378
Location
, ,
imported post

Yeah, I forgot they closed up the mechanism. I bet they had some reports of this problem and any company would fix a product with such a defect.

Some field testing is in order. Anyone care to run some tests and make a report?

However, SERPAs are still not permitted in some gun classes because of the finger issue. It goes by instructor. I hang out with a few and I know what they tell me (or stuff they send me showing people messing up). Watching a train wreck on the range makes the belly go cold...some of you know exactly what I'm talking about. Most of the time only some plants take the errant round, but the feeling is there just the same.

Here's something I wrote on thehighroad.org today on a different topic. The "brain to mush" parts are pertinent:

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=464099

"In Southnarc's ECQC course, I learned that timing is critical in deployment of the firearm in close quarters. Even if the guy starts out eight feet away and he's coming in, the good guy has a big problem. If the good guy starts reaching for a weapon, it's exceptionally easy for the BG to mess up the draw. The brain sorta turns to goo since there's so much stuff going on...and the gun will feel "glued" into the holster. This is where training is essential...training the brain to push through the goo with definitive and decisive action takes time and repetition. But, it can be done and everyone improved over the course of two days.

Add a second bad guy to the equation, and the human "CPU" REALLY slows down. Keeping track of the other guy becomes exceptionally difficult because the brain wants to zero in on BG #1 as he charges in. Brain gooieness happens...and suddenly BG #2 smashes into the good guy from another direction. The good guy is now in a terrible position, especially if he started to draw. Even if the good guy didn't start to introduce a weapon, sometimes either BG will find the gun and go for it.

I cannot emphasize enough the difficulty of handling these situations. Unfortunately, they're also common. Even worse, bad guys have figured out that group attacks are better than solo attacks (which is why gun schools teach the rule of "Plus One"). The problem with most of the training I have seen is that it does not address the "up close and personal" problem. The courses tend to focus on shooting and running the gun. While this is an essential element of the self-defense martial art, it is only one aspect. Many people stop training at this point and don' t know (or are told otherwise) that the class is only the first part.

Combatives training is difficult. Most of the fat Americans out there are not up for it physically or mentally. Getting dinged up over the course of two days just isn't that much fun...it's work, it hurts and there is the real possibility of injury. I have found only a small subset of customers (those who are considered "serious" about their training and attend courses on a regular basis) have any interest in this sort of class. What I'm seeing in the training world now is a slow shift towards training that integrates fitness, knife, hand and gun. Force on force is gaining popularity (but is still gun training) and is perhaps pushing people into combatives. The number of instructors is small, but growing as it becomes more popular.

I also see lots of resistance to it on the gun boards, ranges and classrooms. The mindset of the general gun owning population precludes them from taking ANY training beyond safety. I have seen many posts (and conversations) where guys flat-out state that they'll never attend a defensive firearms course (subjective, I know, but the posts are there). Even getting people to take CCW training is difficult...just compare the number of CCW permits in your state to the number of gun owners. If the number of CCW permits in any given "shall-issue" state represents the majority of folks serious about self-defense, then one would think these defense classes would be overflowing. While the logic is probably flawed, the fact of the matter is only a small percentage of the (legal) gun owning population is willing to carry a gun around. In the end, I believe that most gun owners see no need for training of any sort since they believe their current skill level is sufficient."

Oh, and you're still wrong ;) :celebrate
 

cREbralFIX

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Messages
378
Location
, ,
imported post

SoldierMedic wrote:
Interesting topic so far... on that note, I decided to conduct a test of my Serpa with one of my buddies. I usually carry a Glock 19 when I OC, and it is almost always in my Serpa holster with the pancake adapter (the one that goes over your belt, not the belt through the holster). I wanted to see what kind of retention my holster had depending on how tight my belt was, the width of the belt I was wearing, and the position from which a potential gun grabber came at me. (Disclaimer: Before anyone gets started, yes, we used a real Glock, and yes we both visually and manually inspected to ensure it was clear before we proceeded. There wasn't even a mag or ammo in the same room.) We went with the assumption that the grabber did not know how to operate the button portion of the holster, and that he simply was trying to grab the gun with brute force and somehow pull it off my body or out of the holster. All tests were done at full strength and at combat speed, with the good guy attempting to secure his firearm from the bad guy during the struggle.

So here is what we found:

First, if you notice on the pancake portion of the holster, there are some "teeth" that help the holster retain a grip on the fabric of your pants, and on your belt. You can see that there is a way to adjust the teeth for larger or smaller belts. Well, if you have a smaller width belt (1 inch), and the teeth are not pulled in around it, it can lead to problems. From the right side, my friend was able to grab the whole holster, gun and all, off my 1 inch belt simply by twisting it around in his hand and pulling upwards at the same time. Not good. We tried it again from the back (assailant standing behind you), and he was not able to yank it away from me, but I felt it slipping during the struggle. We tried both positions again, with my belt tightened down another notch to see if that made a difference. In both second scenarios, it was impossible for him to take my pistol. Just for @#$%s and giggles, we tried it without a belt. Both ways, it came off after only a brief struggle.

Side note: My friend was not allowed to consciously attempt to push the button when grabbing for the pistol. Even so, during one struggle, he ended up coming in contact with it and yanked the pistol right out. Even he was surprised and just sat there staring at it for a sec before he was like "oh, my bad."

Conclusions: wear your belt tighter, or get a larger belt, or adjust the teeth on the paddle, or just use the belt loop thing if you want to wear this holster. Second, don't assume that everyone else is ignorant in the holster's operation, and even if they are, that they won't accidentally press the button and free your firearm. Third, don't wear this thing without a belt EVER. Fourth, be situationally aware and don't let bad guys get close enough to grab your firearm if at all possible.

Questions, comments, rants, and general lambasting of my lack of scientific method welcome.:D

100% situational awareness is impossible.
  1. We do not have 360 degree vision or telepathy.
  2. People come close to us all the time from any angle.
  3. Distractions happen and we become task focused rather than surroundings focused.
You described the major complaint with paddle holsters. They're convenient, but require attention to detail such as adjusting the holster to the belt. The gun needs to be attached to the person and the person needs to know combatives and knifing (retention techniques are a part of combatives).

And SERPAs still suck. :celebrate
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
imported post

cREbralFIX wrote
Oh, and you're still wrong ;) :celebrate
At least in your class I am. :? :D

The "goo" analogy is pointed. It is stickier than mush.

Yata hey
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
imported post

45acpForMe wrote:
So where around here does training like, "Southnarc's ECQC"?
Not far from Culpeper but are seldom open to the public.

Good lessons to be learned for close contact encounters - reaction/point shooting drills from 0 to10 ft in last one available.

There has been some scuttlebutt about another for VCDL members.

Yata hey
 

cREbralFIX

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Messages
378
Location
, ,
imported post

45acpForMe,

www.shivworks.com is Southnarc's site. Sign up at darkworlfunderground.com.

He is running his AMIS class in September (Armed Movement in Structures).

--c
 

45acpForMe

Newbie
Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
2,805
Location
Yorktown, Virginia, USA
imported post

cREbralFIX wrote:
45acpForMe,

http://www.shivworks.com is Southnarc's site. Sign up at darkworlfunderground.com.

He is running his AMIS class in September (Armed Movement in Structures).

--c
Thanks for the info and links.

I am more interested in the Extreme Close Quarter Concepts. The cost of the class is negligible but getting time off work to attend would be the issue.

The site darkworlfunderground.com didn't work.
 

tom357

New member
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
7
Location
Richmond VA, ,
imported post

Everyone's entitled to their opinion. Carrying in a SERPA, though, I wanted to dig a little deeper into all these allegedly observed ND'swith SERPA holsters, that were resulting in all these thigh and femur gunshot injuries (or would have had the ammo not been NLTA). What I found was, beyond one famous trainer's personal campaign, there was very little actual evidence to support these claims.

About four years ago, firearms trainer Paul Gomez posted a strongly worded and damning post about SERPA holsters having a severely-flawed design. He cited two ND's with Glocks, one that resulted in an injury to the shooter, and one involving an NLTA-modified Glock, where, under stress, the shooters had slipped their fingers inside the trigger guard after the trigger guard cleared the holster. He also cited another incident involving an NLTA-modified Glock, where the SERPA Autolock mechanism was completely siezed by a single piece of gravel "about the size of the head of a pin"; in fact, he said the pistol was wedged in place so tightly that two people could not remove the pistol from the holster, and in trying managed to separate the holster from the belt plate (citing yet another 'flaw'). Allegedly, the three screws that secure the holster to the belt plate managed to slip out of the slots in which they are located when the holster is properly secured to the belt plate or paddle. Allegedly, neither the holster nor the belt plate were damaged, yet the holster was separated from the belt plate, suggesting that the belt plate was so flimsy and weak that it allowed the screws to slip through.

Gomez implied that this problem was being discussed on several forums, and went on to post links to "other discussions" about these same issues on four or five other forums, without mentioning that those other threads were his, as well.

As popular as he was on the training/lecture circuit, it is little wonder that his internet posts got picked up and repeated in the manner of urban legend (you know - FOAF posts, "I heard", and claims referring to unnamed, unindentified accidents as fact rather than second/third/fourth-hand information). Four years later, the same incidents are still being presented, without citation, as first-hand accounts, or generalized as a widespread problem. I know of one well-known training school that banned SERPA holsters from its classes, PURELY, on the basis of Paul Gomez's postings, and not on their own experience.

It also seems that Gomez's comments have been picked up and repeated by some Safariland instructors, and there appears to be a certain amount of Chevy vs Ford-style rivalry between Safariland fans and SERPA fans.

When pressed, Gomez had to revise his statements to say that they were restricted to the SERPA used with certain Glocks, and that in most cases with other pistols, the holster worked without failure. He continued to insist that shooters under stress manage to end up with their finger on the trigger during the draw, in effect saying that people fail to draw from the SERPA holster according to proper training, but even then, in order for the described misuse to occur, one would also have to move the trigger finger away from the autolock button by more than an inch for the trigger finger to end up inside the trigger guard instead of on the slide.

About eight months ago, an individual on a police forum claimed that SERPA holsters are deadly, and said he was at the point of banning them from his department's classes. He referenced the Gomez ND cases, without citation or detail, claiming them as 'his' experiences, and the debris under the autolock mechanism, claiming it as 'his' observation during extreme FoF training. He also claimed to have contacted Blackhawk about this problem with no response. He also claimed that his training classes involved very hard use, and that his force-on-force training was not normal.

Pressed for details about his position, he eventually admitted to being a part-time, unpaid, volunteer constable whose regular job was as an owner of several businesses. Pressed for details about the training, he stated that the FoF training he claimed to teach was neither required nor regular training for his constabulary. When confronted by Blackhawk's SERPA product manager about who at Blackhawk the constable had contacted, the constable hedged at first and then eventually stated that he had spoken to someone at the Blackhawk booth at the SHOT show.

Surrounding these posts were replies by SERPA fans saying they would swear by their SERPA holsters, and Safariland fans saying they would stick with their Safariland holsters.

Amazingly, on-line gunrags repeating Gomez's dirt-under-the-lock claim, also happened to be advertising Gomez training classes or featuring Gomez articles.

All I can say is, at least on my Blackhawk Level II Serpa CQC Autolock holster, the screw heads that secure the holster to the belt plate are wide enough that they could not possibly slip through the slots in the belt plate or paddle, that there is enough clearance in the design of the autolock that it would be difficult to even get debris to take a purchase around or under the mechanism, and that I cannot draw from the holster and get my trigger finger into the trigger guard during the draw, without an extremely awkward and unnatural movement of my trigger finger. If I draw naturally, my trigger finger ends up extended along the slide, as it should be. It doesn't matter if I'm using the side of my finger or the point of my finger, it ends up well above and beyond the trigger guard, on the frame, against the bottom of the slide.

I think, over the last four years, that the SERPA holster has become a scapegoat for operator error. It is much easier to blame the equipment, than to admit that one screwed up - rather like all those gun cleaning accidents that involve ND's. Imagine - you actually have to adjust the equipment for fit, and use it as intended, or it might not work. Funny thing, that.

If the the ND problem peculiar to the SERPA holsters was as common as its detractors would like everyone to believe, then Blackhawk would be out of business from paying damages in lawsuits. Instead, I see Blackhawk picking up LEA customers for its Level 2 and Level 3 holsters, with a huge number in use by LEA's, military, and individuals, worldwide. That doesn't sound like a product with a deadly flaw. JMO YMMV, of course.

- tom
 
Top