South Chipotle in Longmont.

[cscitney87]

Yeah, because floors are made of bullet proof materials </sarcasm>. The whole point is that you were arguing to keep a gun holstered muzzle down because that's safe. Well, if there is someone below you then "it's going to intersect with the path of a human being." If muzzle down is the only safe way to carry then one can never be in a second floor of any building while carrying a gun, which is retarded.

What's retarded is your statement that a floor separating two homes would need to be made of bullet proof materials. Last I checked.. wood and steel and concrete stop bullets.

Good try though.

 

[cscitney87]

Sorry for all you trying to pervert the true nature of our conversation- but the fact is

Keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction at all times. No exceptions. Even for shoulder holsters.

 

[entartet17]

What's retarded is your statement that a floor separating two homes would need to be made of bullet proof materials. Last I checked.. wood and steel and concrete stop bullets.

http://union-bulletin.com/stories/2010/6/15/deputy-off-force-after-accidental-discharge

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2010/jun/29/no-headline---us--stray_bullet-shooting0/


Troll harder next time

 

[ZackL]

CS, the true nature of the conversation is, as you said, that the muzzle of a weapon should be pointed in a safe direction at all times. However, if you wish to discuss it, then you do need to look at all possibilities of what that could mean. As has been stated, if it's unsafe to carry in a horizontal shoulder then it is, by the same logic, unsafe to carry in a downward facing holster if you're on the second level of a building. You cannot accept one of these situations to be true without accepting the other as well. Furthermore, if you say that the muzzle must, at every moment, face in a safe direction, then up is also a never acceptable position as everything that goes up, must come down because of the laws of physics.

This argument is one that doesn't need to be discussed as we all know that there is never a 100% safe direction, nor is there a 100% failure free firearm. However, a reliable, well maintained firearm is as safe as it can get. Also, as has been stated earlier, if you have a quality holster that covers the trigger then you cannot carry in a safer manner.

Now, as far as I'm concerned, carry how and what is comfortable because you will never be able to please everyone all the time.

 

[heliopolissolutions]

Sorry, I don't like having guns pointed at me, doesn't matter whose they are, how much training you have, whether its loaded, or unloaded, or how totally Miami Vice your leather Galco looks.

Thats just how I feel, and I understand when people get upset, therefore, I no longer carry in a shoulder holster.

Consider a vertical holster, or an adjustable cant. We are representatives here, and ambassadors of conscientious, responsible and polite behavior.

 

[mahkagari]

Last I checked.. wood and steel and concrete stop bullets.

Unfortunately, not a good try on your part. Check again. Concrete and steel are rarely used "separating two homes" in seprate floors. The 1/2" plywood that makes up most floors isn't going to do much to reduce the lethal velocity on a ND from a .45 to someone standing less than 10 feet under it. The suspended ceilings in most office buildings, say in police stations where LOTS of people are carrying holsters pointed down, are going to stop even less. Or do you have some strange illusion that they walk only on the i-beams?

Or how about those Longmont city buildings you were just railing against banning OC? If the ban is rescinded, are you going to voluntarily not carry onto the second floor unless you know the floors are made of concrete and steel? Unloading before entering wouldn't do any good, 'cause you have to treat all guns like they're loaded, right? How do you clean your weapons, CS? In a sandbag padded room? Because you can't move them around unless they're in a safe direction. Do you always have them pointed down, and never at a surface that will ricochet? Wow, how do you get anywhere???

 

[cscitney87]

okay cool sorry i forgot i'm not the coolest guy on the forums. you are. my bad man you're cooler than me. all right well debate settled you're completely better and cooler

 

[Las Vegan]

Are you saying that those of us who may not chose a horizontal rig believe there is a chance of the gun going off by itself?

Nope.

Did anyone say that he should not have carried in his chosen method?

Yes, that seems to be the case.

Did it ever occur to you that this movement is still pretty young and if we can just maybe make a few minor adjustments to make those that are on the fence about OC a little more comfortable (and avoid as much strife as possible) that we may want to think about it?

Actually, the Constitution and its Amendments have been around for quite a few years now. It's the antis and their brainwashing that are relatively new. If you wish to make "a few minor adjustments" to your right to free speech or to peaceable assembly or to worship in the church of your choice or to carry a firearm, by all means please do so. But you won't be doing the rest of us any favors.

Tell me, does your belt holster have the common 10 to 15-degree cant? If so, you do realize that you are putting other people's feet and ankles at risk every time you strap on. Perhaps you have taken that important rule of safety to its absurd end point and only carry with your pistol pointed straight down at the ground... but then of course you a "lasering" your own legs and feet every time you take a step. Oh dear.

As a youngster I was taught to never point a gun at anything that I did not wish to destroy, but even then I knew what the word "point" meant. I'll give you a clue... it has something to do with the gun actually being in your hand. Or did I get the answer to your first question wrong?

Another man's right to swing his fist stops at my nose, and another man's right to infringe on my rights stops the moment he utters his intention to do so. Give an inch to a brainwashed bozo and they'll take a mile. I once had a group of women sit down next to me at an outdoor patio, and then one of them leaned over to complain about the smoke from my cigar. Outdoors. Me there first. Sure, I could have apologized profusely and moved to another table, and that would have made her feel even more justified to harass the next guy. Instead I said, "Lady, your stress is going to kill you a lot faster than my smoke," and then I gave her my biggest smile.

Like I'm giving you right now.

 

[Kingfish]

Vegan,

It was after I made that post that this thread turned to hell.

I already said I supported the OP in his choise but just thought it may not be the best option and I personally would not wear a horizontal rig (for a variety of reason.)

I was not the one that said it was dangerous to carry in a horizontal rig...I think that point is silly. (If that was not directed at me then you need to quote someone else.) And yeah, my belt holster has about a 15 degree cant (I don't know how it matters but you asked.)

My points were not about constitutional rights. My points are about getting the carrying of properly holstered handguns in daily life normalized again and how we can best achieve this goal.

If you wanna carry an AK handgun slung to the front while you do your grocery shopping, then that is your choise and I would support that but it might not be the best way to normallize carrying of properly holstered handguns in daily life.

 

[Gunslinger]

CS, the true nature of the conversation is, as you said, that the muzzle of a weapon should be pointed in a safe direction at all times. However, if you wish to discuss it, then you do need to look at all possibilities of what that could mean. As has been stated, if it's unsafe to carry in a horizontal shoulder then it is, by the same logic, unsafe to carry in a downward facing holster if you're on the second level of a building. You cannot accept one of these situations to be true without accepting the other as well. Furthermore, if you say that the muzzle must, at every moment, face in a safe direction, then up is also a never acceptable position as everything that goes up, must come down because of the laws of physics.

This argument is one that doesn't need to be discussed as we all know that there is never a 100% safe direction, nor is there a 100% failure free firearm. However, a reliable, well maintained firearm is as safe as it can get. Also, as has been stated earlier, if you have a quality holster that covers the trigger then you cannot carry in a safer manner.

Now, as far as I'm concerned, carry how and what is comfortable because you will never be able to please everyone all the time.

No one has said it is "unsafe" to carry in a horizontal shoulder rig. What has been said is that the muzzle shoud never point at something you don't intend to shoot at. A belt holster 40 stories up doesn't apply. And not knowing the type of pistol or condition it's carried in mitigates against the OP's scenario, imo. Someone being concerned is a reasonable reaction. As I also said, the OP handled the situation well, all things considered, but calling the guy an a-hole because he was conerned is pure BS. How does he know whether it's a 1930s made French POS with a weak sear carried cocked with no safety?

 

[ZackL]

I'm not saying the guy didn't have a right to get upset. I can understand to a certain extent and I don't think either party involved was actually in the wrong. Could the guy who got upset have been more eloquent in his conversation with the OP? I think so. However, the premise that you shouldn't carry in a shoulder rig because of unintentionally having the muzzle "point" at someone is absurd. I understand that they don't know the condition of the firearm or anything of that nature. But it should still be pointed out and accepted that if you are to abide by this then you have to also not carry into a building higher than the first floor because there is bound to be at least one person passing under you.

Also, Vegan made a good point. Unless you are carrying in an ankle rig that is two inches off the ground and at least an inch from your body then you are likely going to be pointing the gun at someone throughout your daily routine. I'm not saying all this to sound like I'm against anyone in this forum. I respect all of you, but I also don't understand how carrying one way is different from carrying any other way. Also, I think, at this point every aspect of the argument has been made and cannot be made any clearer from any side. I support the OP's choice (and everyone's choice) in how to carry and right to carry, even though I won't carry that way because of the issues enumerated in this thread and also the way you have to draw from the holster.

One other thing, the safety issues of carrying in any matter that I bring up may not be said, but they are implied (IMO) with the listing of gun safety rules. I'm not trying to put words into anyone's mouth here, just how I am interpreting the comments that have been made.

 

[Las Vegan]

I was not the one that said it was dangerous to carry in a horizontal rig...I think that point is silly. (If that was not directed at me then you need to quote someone else.)

I quoted you because you were the one asking me questions. My answers merely express my opinion on the subject.

And yeah, my belt holster has about a 15 degree cant (I don't know how it matters but you asked.)

My point, which apparently others understood, is that there is no way of carrying a gun so that the muzzle doesn't point at someone or something that you have no intention of shooting. That does not violate the basic law of gun safety.

My points were not about constitutional rights. My points are about getting the carrying of properly holstered handguns in daily life normalized again and how we can best achieve this goal.

Actually your point was that we should make decisions about how we carry based on the feelings of people who choose not to carry. Sorry, but I have other priorities when I carry.

If you wanna carry an AK handgun slung to the front while you do your grocery shopping, then that is your choise and I would support that but it might not be the best way to normallize carrying of properly holstered handguns in daily life.

Thanks, but I'm fine with my current pistols and carry rigs, as I assume you and the OP and everyone else here is. What an odd thing to bring into the discussion.

 

[Kingfish]

My point, which apparently others understood, is that there is no way of carrying a gun so that the muzzle doesn't point at someone or something that you have no intention of shooting. That does not violate the basic law of gun safety

Ok, ONE MORE TIME...I (ME, KINGFISH, MIKE) never said one word about the safety of a horizontal rig or the danger of carrying in a 2 story building. You must have me confused with someone else.

How about reading a whole post before quoting and commenting?

 

[Las Vegan]

Ok, ONE MORE TIME...I (ME, KINGFISH, MIKE) never said one word about the safety of a horizontal rig or the danger of carrying in a 2 story building. You must have me confused with someone else.

How about reading a whole post before quoting and commenting?

You said that we should take the comfort level of others into consideration when we choose a method of carry. Your method of carry may make others uncomfortable. Just the fact that you carry makes other people uncomfortable. You should stop. That will make everyone feel better. How about thinking things through to their logical conclusion before commenting about someone else's method of carry?

It is not my job to make sheep feel better. If the guy in the original post had a problem looking at a gun, he could have moved. Instead he chose to make a scene. That was his mistake. No one owed him an apology, and no one needs to live their life differently to accommodate jerks like him.

If nothing that I say applies to you, then don't respond. For someone who says he wants to "avoid as much strife as possible," you seem kinda strifed. Take a deep breath. Go outside. Clear your head. Smell some flowers.

 

[mahkagari]

If nothing that I say applies to you, then don't respond. For someone who says he wants to "avoid as much strife as possible," you seem kinda strifed. Take a deep breath. Go outside. Clear your head. Smell some flowers.

And vote in this poll:

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?78953-Horizontal-shoulder-holsters

 

[marinepilot81]

back to the point...please!

Wow. I definitely didn't intend to revisit the shoulder rig vs. belt carry argument.

1. I understand "pointing" a weapon. However, I do not consider my weapon "pointing at anyone" while it's in it's holster and not being handled in any way.

2. If he had approached me politely, I could have explained that my weapon has 2 safeties and a leather strap prohibiting the hammer from falling onto the firing pin. Hell, I might have even been willing to reposition my body to accomodate him. But when he's fired up and yelling, only a polite rebutal will do. I chose to disengage with an irrate individual instead of arguing facts or "considerate ways to carry."

3. When addressing issues about firearms and carrying I will entertain FACTS ONLY. I'm not interested in "what people feel", "what they assume", or "what they perceive." We have appeased these people for far too long. After all, appeasing a tyrrant is only hoping he will eat you last.

4. I know for a fact he didn't consider it a dangerous situation. I know that for a fact! This was entirely emotional (like all other opposition to firearms) and it's easy to prove. Would you walk up to a mad gunman and talk smack or yell at him? Would you taunt someone you knew would attack you? No. he identified me as a peaceful, armed man and only then decided to insult me.

5. A man who worries over a holstered weapon pointed at him has never seen the business end actually pointed at him...or the accompanying flash.

Emotional opposition will never trump logic and reason.

 

[entartet17]

okay cool sorry i forgot i'm not the coolest guy on the forums. you are. my bad man you're cooler than me. all right well debate settled you're completely better and cooler

 

[Gunslinger]

You said that we should take the comfort level of others into consideration when we choose a method of carry. Your method of carry may make others uncomfortable. Just the fact that you carry makes other people uncomfortable. You should stop. That will make everyone feel better. How about thinking things through to their logical conclusion before commenting about someone else's method of carry?

It is not my job to make sheep feel better. If the guy in the original post had a problem looking at a gun, he could have moved. Instead he chose to make a scene. That was his mistake. No one owed him an apology, and no one needs to live their life differently to accommodate jerks like him.

If nothing that I say applies to you, then don't respond. For someone who says he wants to "avoid as much strife as possible," you seem kinda strifed. Take a deep breath. Go outside. Clear your head. Smell some flowers.

No one said the OP owed the guy an apology. The discussion centers on looking at the muzzle of a pistol while seated at a diner. The OP, as I said, handled things well. To attack the guy who was upset is BS. No one said shoulder carry is wrong, simply that there are times when it is problematic--as I said. Wearing a shirt over it makes it no safer, just less problematic. That is my take on the thread without making it personal to any other poster.

 

[trooper46]

Keep your damn muzzle pointed in a safe direction. I don't care how many safety gadgets it has...I don't care how unlikely the chance is...keep your muzzle away from people's heads. Carrying is one thing, but nobody should have to sit with their wife and eat a meal staring down the barrel. That's firearms 101 and I can't believe there are still blockheads that would even defend that.

This guy was a fart in the wind compared to how much I'd of layed into you if your damn muzzle was pointed at MY wife or family. Then, while OCing with a weapon in secured in a safe manner, I would asked the manager to throw your butt out. I grew up in the country and think nothing of being around guns...that does not mean that any of us should have to stare down the barrel of one whether it's in your hand or otherwise while we eat.
If we are to normalize open carry......crap like this takes a step back. I'm sure people have and will come to accept open carry if it's conducted in a safe manner, but I don't blame people for not wanting to have to stare down a barrel.

Your gun points at people so you can be comfortable....that is the most selfish jack a** thing I have ever heard. We have a name for your type in my line of work.......they're called BLUE FALCONS.

 

[bcbrown2]

Keep your damn muzzle pointed in a safe direction. I don't care how many safety gadgets it has...I don't care how unlikely the chance is...keep your muzzle away from people's heads. Carrying is one thing, but nobody should have to sit with their wife and eat a meal staring down the barrel. That's firearms 101 and I can't believe there are still blockheads that would even defend that.

This guy was a fart in the wind compared to how much I'd of layed into you if your damn muzzle was pointed at MY wife or family. Then, while OCing with a weapon in secured in a safe manner, I would asked the manager to throw your butt out. I grew up in the country and think nothing of being around guns...that does not mean that any of us should have to stare down the barrel of one whether it's in your hand or otherwise while we eat.
If we are to normalize open carry......crap like this takes a step back. I'm sure people have and will come to accept open carry if it's conducted in a safe manner, but I don't blame people for not wanting to have to stare down a barrel.

Your gun points at people so you can be comfortable....that is the most selfish jack a** thing I have ever heard. We have a name for your type in my line of work.......they're called BLUE FALCONS.

I'm normally a part-time lurker around here but this one gets my blood pumping. You're a little more *ahem* "direct" than I but I agree with you 100%.

Definite Blue Falcon territory. A simple "I'm sorry" and change of venue would have ameliorated the situation nicely. Why even run the risk of having the patrons or management call the police??? Especially when the words "I WAS LOOKING DOWN THE BARREL" have a chance of making it onto a police report?

If I or my wife wound up staring down the barrel of someone else's gun -- holstered or not -- during dinner there would be words had with management and then with the owner of the offending firearm immediately AFTER we move off the bore line. Why that couple sat there, finished dinner and didn't get out of the damn way is beyond me... I spent almost a year as a full-time instructor and RSO and have no problem talking to someone with a gun and letting them know they're acting in an unsafe manner. If anyone asks who the hell I am I have no problem with credentials...

It's common courtesy (not to mention Cooper's NUMBER ONE RULE) to NOT point your gun at someone -- holstered or not -- and it's bordering on negligence to sit in a manner that gives someone a direct view of the muzzle of your handgun. If one is bound and determined to wear it in that manner, sit with the back to the wall -- it's not likely a 230gr slug is going to magically appear but you won't be showing the world a chromed 0.45" diameter middle finger and, God forbid, if something bad did happen it's much less likely to punch through a foot of concrete, drywall, wood, and steel than it is to pass through clean air and into some guy's wife or family. We all know the likelihood of that happening borders on the absurd, but those of us who spend time shooting -- not just carrying a gun or finger-loving it on the coffee table while watching Stone Cold on late-night cable -- know safeties are mechanical devices that may at some point fail. Why put it to chance?

This does little to advance the cause of Open Carry for the sake of making a point that it's technically legal. There are plenty of behaviors which are technically legal but downright rude in polite society and actions such a this stigmatize every one of us in the shooting community. Many here have talked about their openly-carried firearm creating positive dialogue... I see this as driving the conversation 180º in the other direction.

FWIW, I don't know of a single armed professional or serious shooter who carries in a shoulder rig anymore and I spent a fair bit of time around police (patrol & detectives) and daily CCW carriers and we all carry muzzle-down. The range I train at doesn't allow them, most serious shooters I know disregard them and you're going to be hard-pressed to find anyone who advocates them... but that's yet another dead horse this thread has beat to a paste. Not to mention there are plenty of muzzle-down shoulder rigs on the market.

I normally refrain from passing judgement on fellow shooters but, in this case, we need to police our own and call bull$#!& when it's necessary to help a brother consider everyone, not just himself, in a world that's generally hostile toward openly-carried firearms.

Cheers!