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Speeding motor cyclist killed by not-speeding cruiser

stainless1911

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Bouncing off your post Al, I tend to agree, but I do like the social lounge, because it allows great conversational opportunities with like minded folks, some of whom we have gotten to know, either online or in person, on topics other than just guns alone. Sometimes the topics are semi related, like this one, religgion, or marijuana discussions that go on here. The forum was added for this, and because people were constantly bringing up things that were OT, or parallel OT.
 

HKcarrier

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michigan
Actually, we shouldn't have done it in the first place. It has nothing to do with OCing. Yeah, I know, the mods moved it to the off topic forum. Still, all we've really done is get pissed at one another. It was not a very constructive conversation at all.

Of course, that's just my opinion.



Good points... except the "pissed" part.. I'm not pissed at anyone.. even if they are totally wrong and idiots for disagreeing with my supreme opinion. ;) (kidding)

Not even mad at eye95... or anyone else who disagreed with me... They're entitled and all that... I just think it sucks when the cops do nearly anything they want under the guise of "apprehending criminals" and "keeping the streets safe"
 

Big Gay Al

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Bouncing off your post Al, I tend to agree, but I do like the social lounge, because it allows great conversational opportunities with like minded folks, some of whom we have gotten to know, either online or in person, on topics other than just guns alone. Sometimes the topics are semi related, like this one, religgion, or marijuana discussions that go on here. The forum was added for this, and because people were constantly bringing up things that were OT, or parallel OT.
I don't mind off topic conversation, generally. But in this particular instance, there's a lot of second guessing going on, and some people seem to be taking it personal. I just think there are more relevant things to get upset about. But what I do I know. ;)
 

Big Gay Al

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Good points... except the "pissed" part.. I'm not pissed at anyone.. even if they are totally wrong and idiots for disagreeing with my supreme opinion. ;) (kidding)

Not even mad at eye95... or anyone else who disagreed with me... They're entitled and all that... I just think it sucks when the cops do nearly anything they want under the guise of "apprehending criminals" and "keeping the streets safe"
I'm not pissed either, but there does seem to be some rather ticked off people responding here.
 

Big Gay Al

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And then what? Give him a lecture? You won't be able to ticket him. And you will have a heckuva time trying to prove felonious flight.

On edit: Considering that most police pursuits result in the quick detention of the pursued car, using stark examples like this one to generalize is kinda stupid.
Ok, don't send a cop. Mail a speeding ticket. That's what they do in Illinois, with their traffic cameras. They catch you speeding on the express way, they mail you a ticket. If the police car camera can get close enough to get the license plate, then do it that way, let the owner fight it in court. Even if he's not convicted, he's gonna be somewhat inconvenienced at the very least.
 

eye95

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Fairborn, Ohio, USA
My younger brother died in a motorcycle accident last year, and I remember all of the "one less idiot" comments on mlive and other sites, without knowing any of the particulars. In my brother's situation, he was with a bunch of other bikes driving on Dort, and one of their friends was driving her car in the adjacent lane ahead of the bikes. A police cruiser pulled a U to pull them over for speeding (they were exceeding the speed limit by about 15, just like most people in cars do), and the girl in the car hit the brakes and got over into the right lane. My brother, having glanced over at the cruiser next to him, looked forward just in time to see he was going to hit the back of the car (now going 30mph slower than he). People make stupid mistakes all the time, and people die because of their mistakes quite often. Adding danger to the situation as the police did in the OP, is unnecessary, and will often lead to the death of the speed limit offender or innocent bystanders. I have to say that the police can learn from this incident, but they probably wont, because they also take the view that it's "one less idiot."

As much as you do not want to hear this, the crash was not the officer's fault. It was your brother's. I won't say "one less idiot" in this case because he wasn't riding at stupidly break-neck speeds, trying to outrun the police.

I am sorry for your loss, but your brother, and only your brother, was at fault.
 

eye95

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Ok, don't send a cop. Mail a speeding ticket. That's what they do in Illinois, with their traffic cameras. They catch you speeding on the express way, they mail you a ticket. If the police car camera can get close enough to get the license plate, then do it that way, let the owner fight it in court. Even if he's not convicted, he's gonna be somewhat inconvenienced at the very least.

Wow. Advocating that the courts be used to hassle potentially innocent citizens. Yeah, that's Liberty-loving. :rolleyes:

How disappointing.
 

eye95

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Ok, don't send a cop. Mail a speeding ticket. That's what they do in Illinois, with their traffic cameras. They catch you speeding on the express way, they mail you a ticket. If the police car camera can get close enough to get the license plate, then do it that way, let the owner fight it in court. Even if he's not convicted, he's gonna be somewhat inconvenienced at the very least.

Wow. Advocating that the courts be used to hassle potentially innocent citizens. Yeah, that's Liberty-loving. :rolleyes:

How disappointing.

Driving is a privilege, not a right.

Non-sequitur. That statement is also specious.

Your post still advocates using the courts to hassle potentially innocent citizens. Such a position shows no respect for Liberty. It remains disappointing that we have folks here posting such advocacy.

If that is the sum total of what you have to contribute, I'll just move on to more fruitful discussions with others.
 

stainless1911

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Certain rights are inalienable, not all rights are listed. We don't need papers to travel, and the drivers license is supposed to be only for those with commercial interests. I dont have the cite, but the supreme court has already determined this.
 

jfrenchudm

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Jun 13, 2008
Messages
95
Location
Ortonville, Michigan, USA
As much as you do not want to hear this, the crash was not the officer's fault. It was your brother's. I won't say "one less idiot" in this case because he wasn't riding at stupidly break-neck speeds, trying to outrun the police.

I am sorry for your loss, but your brother, and only your brother, was at fault.

I am in agreement with you that my brother was at fault, as well as the young man that died in the recent accident. The police, due to the training they receive (boxing in the speeding vehicle, which will always end poorly when the opposing vehicle is a motorcycle), contribute to an already dangerous situation, making it even more dangerous for everyone involved (including non-associated vehicles on cross-streets, heading in the opposite direction, etc.). I wouldn't make the leap to say that the police intentionally (or directly) caused the death of the young man, but I think that they require better training for such situations.

I agree with those that call for sending the owner of the vehicle a ticket, or investigating the matter by knocking on the door of the vehicle owner. The owner of the vehicle, if they were not the person driving it, is at least responsible for whom they allow to drive their bike (unless it had been stolen). Let the owner provide an alibi, and a name as to who had possession of their vehicle. It really isn't all that complicated.

Please also note that I took extra care not to say "killed," because their deaths are not a direct result of the actions of another, but rather a series of events that resulted in their death.
 

eye95

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No series of events.

Their deaths resulted from their actions which grossly increased the probability of their being killed.

Duh.

Finally, if the law reads that the owner of a car is in violation of the law when anyone speeds in his car, then you might have something when it comes to going after the owner. However, if the only person whom the law will hold liable is the rider on the bike who speeds in these circumstances, then your suggestion is silly and without merit. (Unless you are another of these who have so little respect for Liberty that they think the owner should be unlawfully hassled if he wasn't the rider/driver.)
 

Big Gay Al

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Non-sequitur. That statement is also specious.

Your post still advocates using the courts to hassle potentially innocent citizens. Such a position shows no respect for Liberty. It remains disappointing that we have folks here posting such advocacy.

If that is the sum total of what you have to contribute, I'll just move on to more fruitful discussions with others.
You enter the conversation with rather heartless remark of "One less idiot." I try to think of ways to stop bad behavior before it happens, or at least encourage people to not break the traffic laws.

I don't know about Alabama, but there are states where traffic cameras DO count against people who speed. Just try flying down the Illinois toll roads sometime, and then watch your mail box.

Do I like it? Not necessarily, but in the absence of having a traffic cop every half mile, I guess it will do.

I thought the point here was the incident we started talking about was the motorcyclist who ran into a police car, and what might have been done to avoid such an incident. Scratch that, I actually don't know what the original point was. Perhaps it was just a "WOW, look what happened the other night." MY POINT is there are ways to discourage such behavior. If you don't like mine, come up with some of your own.

As far as driving being a privilege versus a right, you need a license to drive, privilege.
In most states, you need a license/permit to conceal carry, privilege.
In most states, you do not need a license to open carry, right.

On the day I can legally drive down the highway and not need a license, then it will be a right. But I'll probably be dead before that happens.

Moving on.
 
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Big Gay Al

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Certain rights are inalienable, not all rights are listed. We don't need papers to travel, and the drivers license is supposed to be only for those with commercial interests. I dont have the cite, but the supreme court has already determined this.
Then how come I have to have a drivers license to drive down the road? I don't have any commercial interests, unless going to the store and going to work count.
 

HKcarrier

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No series of events.

Their deaths resulted from their actions which grossly increased the probability of their being killed.

Duh.

Finally, if the law reads that the owner of a car is in violation of the law when anyone speeds in his car, then you might have something when it comes to going after the owner. However, if the only person whom the law will hold liable is the rider on the bike who speeds in these circumstances, then your suggestion is silly and without merit. (Unless you are another of these who have so little respect for Liberty that they think the owner should be unlawfully hassled if he wasn't the rider/driver.)

It's entirely possible that upon questioning that the person would admit, or flub up their story upon further investigation, thus being able to prosecute them for the offenses, especially the civil offenses where burden of proof is not as strong.

They could have visited the guy the next day, or even as soon as they got an address, and issued MANY MANY civil citations to the guy.
 

mohawk001

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May 16, 2010
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Sierra Vista, Arizona, USA
What I'm finding amusing is the hypocrisy of those saying the police were ok to have the kid run into the vehicle. I guess it's ok for the police to abuse anyone else they feel ready to handle also. After all, if they shoot you once you question them it's ok since you refused to obey and order and you should have taken them to court instead if what they did was illegal. So people want their cake and to eat it too.
 

KBCraig

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You really don't see the difference between breaking the law and behaving lawfully in the enforcement of the law?
I see the difference in their legality, but I wasn't asking about that. I asked why identical actions are considered either safe or "idiotic" based on their legality.

And since you you cannot have a logical answer to that, it's just as well that you moved on.
 

marshaul

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Aug 13, 2007
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Fairfax County, Virginia
I see the difference in their legality, but I wasn't asking about that. I asked why identical actions are considered either safe or "idiotic" based on their legality.

I like the way you put this.

It is not right to place so much emphasis on the law. Law without merit is not worthy of respect, or often even compliance. Eye95's simplistic, black-and-white analysis is bothersome.
 
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