"stupid" oc move in missouri!!!!

[OC for ME]

I like where you're going with this. I too have wondered if Sheriff Kyle realizes that the carrying individual's rights may have been violated due to the lack of RAS or PC on the matter. Fortunately he put it out there that the person did nothing unlawful because Mo is a carry State. Pluses and minuses there for Sheriff Kyle.

OC for ME, aren't businesses absolved of liability for criminal acts occurring on their property and within their facilities in Missouri? I recall a lengthy converstation (some time ago) with several here and on missouricarry regarding this type of issue in relation to forcing businesses to assume liability if they post or removing their right to post all together. The Virginia Tech lawsuit was one of great importance. The families that held out got the decision that was so badly neeeded....the college was liable.

VT had it's own 'police force'.

Evidently Ozark B&B decided to let LE address the citizen lawfully carrying on their property. How much of that decision was prompted by the Colorado incident can only be speculated upon.

Would/did the citizen have gone/go back into the theater unarmed or did he decline and leave? It seems that Ozark B&B was fine with the citizen but not his firearm.

Did the good Sheriff explain to Ozark B&B that there was nothing unlawful with that armed citizen unless he refused to leave the property after being asked? I wonder if the good Sheriff, or one of his minions, 'suggested' that the lawful citizen be give only one of two options.

How many were CCW that day at Ozark B&B is a good question.

 

[Festus_Hagen]

I think they can safely say at the point of contact they had RAS to ask for ID and possibly disarm him while he was detained for questioning.

 

[Vitaeus]

I think they can safely say at the point of contact they had RAS to ask for ID and possibly disarm him while he was detained for questioning.

Does Missouri have a stop and id statute? At what point is he trespassing? When the theater asks him to leave or after he refuses? I am not familiar with your state laws, so these are honest questions, but in general i doubt the LEO had RAS or PC of any violation if the only action he took was to enter the premises and exit upon request.

 

[SovereignAxe]

I said "NOT" illegal, but for goodness sake, THINK! You want OC freedom and he picks a theater right now? Holly smokes. I'm going to an OC event in an hour, but it's not at a THEATER!.
Common sense, we are having it a place where OC is common.

Ya' all aint gonna get your rights back if you are doing garbage like this for a first time right after a mass murder! Does this get you public opinion on our side? NO, this is just plain stupid!

USE YOU FRICKEN BRIANS!

YEP, YOU CAN BE "LEGAL" AND STUPID... THEN YOU CAN KISS YOUR HOPES FOR OC RIGHTS GOOD BYE HERE IN MISSOURI!

That was painful to read

 

[Festus_Hagen]

Does Missouri have a stop and id statute? At what point is he trespassing? When the theater asks him to leave or after he refuses? I am not familiar with your state laws, so these are honest questions, but in general i doubt the LEO had RAS or PC of any violation if the only action he took was to enter the premises and exit upon request.

Given the recent events in Co. at a movie theater they had RAS to detain because they thought a crime MAY be committed. There were a bunch of cinema's that upped security they were so worried.

 

[LMTD]

What is stupid?

Well lets take a look a lot closer at REALITY.

1. OC in MO is NOT considered a RIGHT by the legislature and to some degree the judicial branch as well, so the right debate flew out the window long ago with common sense so "Rights" are not really part of the debate.

2. To OC in a theater following in the light of the massive media circus that is again vilifying firarms as the problem instead of the CRIMINAL lacks good judgement in a state where it is NOT a right and the municipality may well be lobbied to and pass laws ending the ability to open carry there specificly because of the actions taken and the media hype/

3. Efforts to indeed reverse the law that struck down the rights of all people to open carry in the state of Missouri were not supported by the firearms community and were even fought against by some CCW advocates and the NRA, hence they failed the past several years and despite a concentrated effort this year, failed again.

4. Organizational efforts for next year are underway, bad pubilicity is not likely to help the reception next session, especially if high profile efforts are employed to continue banning OC in MO, despite opinions to the contrary, such things are observed as "what the people we represent want" without regard for the laws of the land.

SSo was it "stupid" or not? opinons vary, mine would be in agreement that it lacks good common sense aka is stupid in a state where within literally 24 hours the law can change for that municipality. To all the hard core folks ready to say "if you are afraid to do it then it is not a right" if you would bother to read number one again, your opinion and my opinion may indeed be one and the same, however the opinion of those in power differs and it is indeed stupid to ignore that simple fact. Ignorance is not knowing, stupidity is knowing and doing the wrong thing anyway.

IMHO there is no positive spin on the recent events involving a criminal madman, there is nothing to be gained by it politicly. The anti's are all over it, the media loves the anti's, so there is wisdom in not sharing the negative lime light.

Opinions vary, this is mine, efforts to change it are indeed welcome.

 

[kylemoul]

Given the recent events in Co. at a movie theater they had RAS to detain because they thought a crime MAY be committed. There were a bunch of cinema's that upped security they were so worried.

from the article i read, Officer Kyle publically stated that the subject did nothing wrong/did not violate any laws. how can you detain somebody then later state they have done nothing wrong?

"Missouri is a carry state, in others words, you can carry weapons in Missouri exposed, you can carry weapons concealed, if you have a conceal and carry permit. He said he just exercising his right to carry a firearm," said Sheriff Kyle.
from what i understand he unlawfully detained him and checked him for warrants, but i do not know if the subject gave the officer permission too. the article is short.

 

[kcgunfan]

IIRC, Ozark is a OC with CCW endorsement city, so the ID requirement would be valid. Running for warrants would be out of scope, assuming consent wasn't given.


Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

 

[kylemoul]

IIRC, Ozark is a OC with CCW endorsement city, so the ID requirement would be valid. Running for warrants would be out of scope, assuming consent wasn't given.


Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

indeed then...thanks for that. i was assuming OC was legal (without CCW).
in that case from the short article, it seems everyone acted in order and there were no issues. +1 to the LEO who knew the subjects rights.

maybe the article is so short the media couldnt find any way to put a spin on it.

 

[Festus_Hagen]

indeed then...thanks for that. i was assuming OC was legal (without CCW).
in that case from the short article, it seems everyone acted in order and there were no issues. +1 to the LEO who knew the subjects rights.

maybe the article is so short the media couldnt find any way to put a spin on it.

That may be a lot of it .

LEO did the right thing. I'm surprised at Sheriff Kyles statement because he has made some CCW instructors life miserable . That's another story ....

 

[LMTD]

Well actually, it is likely the same approach used at Redlobster on myself last year.

Management contacted the police, specificly asking the police to address the armed person which is exactly what I was told by RL management a few days, corporate policies dictate to call the police. I was indeed allowed to finish my meal etc.

i did not refuse ID because it is a OC with CCW muni, once they have the ID, running a warrant check is not a violation for a traffic stop, I see little to no reason it would change on an armed citizen stop at the request of the property owner.

The property owner has the right to ask ANYONE to leave as long as it is not discrimination of an illegal type. Asking the police to handle it instead of addressing it themselves is overly cautious in many a mind here I am sure, however in the mind of the HR lawyer for the company, it is MILES ahead on liability issues

Failing to post does not eliminate the property owners rights and we should NEVER support that kind of elimination no matter our distaste for no carry signs, depriving them of their rights is no different than depriving us of ours.

 

[wolfgangmob]

So because someone shot up a theater I should not OC in a theater, well as you are aware (I hope) a Missouri CCW endorsement requires I be 21, I am only 20 and I do not wish to get a permit from Maine or join the military so I'll be waiting for at least 7 months before I can lawfully carry concealed if the St. Louis City Sheriff doesn't think up some reason to deny it. By saying we shouldn't OC you are also saying I shouldn't carry in any lawful manner, if anything now is the time to let people know we are out there, there are many of us, we are armed, we don't shoot up theaters, and protest theaters that do not allow firearms such as the one in Colorado.

 

[Festus_Hagen]

So because someone shot up a theater I should not OC in a theater, well as you are aware (I hope) a Missouri CCW endorsement requires I be 21, I am only 20 and I do not wish to get a permit from Maine or join the military so I'll be waiting for at least 7 months before I can lawfully carry concealed if the St. Louis City Sheriff doesn't think up some reason to deny it. By saying we shouldn't OC you are also saying I shouldn't carry in any lawful manner, if anything now is the time to let people know we are out there, there are many of us, we are armed, we don't shoot up theaters, and protest theaters that do not allow firearms such as the one in Colorado.

Then be prepared for what happens next . As long as you are aware of all of the ramifications, and are OK with that , you can do as you please. A few of us have already said what will happen and showed examples even that HAVE happened , so be ready, and don't be surprised.

 

[Boba Fett]

I'm kinda surprised. Last time I was at that theater I was told that open or concealed carry was highly encouraged. Gave 'em a big positive review on Friend or Foe. Most carry friendly place in Ozark IMO.

 

[Festus_Hagen]

I'm kinda surprised. Last time I was at that theater I was told that open or concealed carry was highly encouraged. Gave 'em a big positive review on Friend or Foe. Most carry friendly place in Ozark IMO.

Huh... that's very interesting.

 

[Marc]

Does Missouri have a stop and id statute? At what point is he trespassing? When the theater asks him to leave or after he refuses? I am not familiar with your state laws, so these are honest questions, but in general i doubt the LEO had RAS or PC of any violation if the only action he took was to enter the premises and exit upon request.

Ok seems no one else actually answered your questions directly, and laws concerning everything very from state to state, I will answer best I can. No, Missouri does not require that you show id when requested unless there is RAS. But that law does not apply in this situation, because in MO our CCW permits are directly tied to our id. We cant carry a seperate paper for our permit, it has to be on the id. (dont matter if its state id or drivers license, most people get both so store clerks and such dont see the ccw on the id they show.) But Ozark, MO is one of few places that OC is allowed only if you have a CCW. So to check your CCW, they have to have your id. And the only way to check if its valid is to run you thru the computer, which also tells them if you have warrants. Its a catch 22 in that situation. He is trespassing at the point that he is asked to leave by management and refuses. Which never happened here. He was not asked to leave, they saw his gun and called the cops (and as far as i can tell they avoided him till police showed up.) The only reason they showed up is because dept policy says that a MWAG call is high priority. Hope that helps you understand are screwy laws enough to help your understanding of this situation.

 

[OC for ME]

To all of you folks who claim, falsely, that Ozark is a "OC is OK with a CCW endorsement". Section 215.250.A.4/6. It is odd that Ozark carries two identical provisions regarding "exhibits".

http://z2codes.sullivanpublications.com/sullivan/Z2Browser2.html?showset=ozarkset

OC is not restricted to only those with a CCW endorsement in Ozark. OC is lawfull in Ozark because it is not, has not, been made unlawfull.

Do your research and then act accordingly.

MO is not a "stop and ID" state except for KC and maybe STL based solely on the attitude of STLPD.

....They shall also have the power to stop any person abroad whenever there is reasonable ground to suspect that he is committing, has committed or is about to commit a crime and demand of him his name, address, business abroad and whither he is going....

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C000-099/0840000710.HTM

Unless the Sheriff or the citizen speaks to this incident it is mere speculation as to whether the cops did it by the book. My gut tells me that the citizen may have been intimidated to waive his rights because the cops are overly sensative right now where theaters and citizens with firearms are concerned.

I hope that more fact are made available. FOIA?

 

[OC for ME]

Wrong.

Ok seems no one else actually answered your questions directly, and laws concerning everything very from state to state, I will answer best I can. No, Missouri does not require that you show id when requested unless there is RAS. But that law does not apply in this situation, because in MO our CCW permits are directly tied to our id. We cant carry a seperate paper for our permit, it has to be on the id. (dont matter if its state id or drivers license, most people get both so store clerks and such dont see the ccw on the id they show.) But Ozark, MO is one of few places that OC is allowed only if you have a CCW. So to check your CCW, they have to have your id. And the only way to check if its valid is to run you thru the computer, which also tells them if you have warrants. Its a catch 22 in that situation. He is trespassing at the point that he is asked to leave by management and refuses. Which never happened here. He was not asked to leave, they saw his gun and called the cops (and as far as i can tell they avoided him till police showed up.) The only reason they showed up is because dept policy says that a MWAG call is high priority. Hope that helps you understand are screwy laws enough to help your understanding of this situation.

It is vital that you research the exact wording of each town that you will OC in to determine if they have "does not apply" language vs. "is a defense against the crime of unlawful use of weapon" language.

Some towns have "does not apply" language, where OCing is no different than driving a vehicle. The mere fact that you are OCing is not RAS to stop and check for a valid CCW endorsement. You must do something that warrants a cop to stop you, just as a cop must witness a traffic violation before he can stop you to check for a valid drivers license. Now, can a cop make-up RAS? That is a seperate issue and should be handled as the OCer sees fit at that time.

Some towns have a "defense against unlawful use of a weapon" language, OCing, it is your CCW that provides for a defense for the citizen violating their unlawful use of weapon ordinance.

As an example here is a passage from a town for unlawful use of weapon:

D. Subparagraphs (1), (6) and (7) of Subsection (A) of this Section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to Sections 571.101 to 571.121, RSMo., or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another State or political subdivision of another State.

(6) Openly carries a firearm or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use;

Research research research. Know the law and be confident as a law abiding citizen exercising your God given right to "keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property in Missouri.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/const/A01023.HTM

 

[Redbaron007]

After reading the many posts, no, this gentleman did nothing wrong, from a legal standpoint. But there are two points here: legal and political.

From a political point, which is what mspgunner I think may be trying to get across; this gentleman didn't help with the politicians. When OC preemption or something very similar comes up this year in the legislature, the anti's will bring this up, plus the Aurora, plus the MWAG in from the STL area, etc, and use it to once again to defeat OC legislation. Will it be successful? Let's hope not. I agree, these folks were just exercising their 2A. But from the political side of the fence, it prolly wasn't a check mark in the '+' column. Here in MO, there is an effort to gain statewide preemptive OC; thus removing the many lil cities/municipalities that you have to research (and still may not know if OC is legal) to know when you can OC in their jurisdiction, it's a royal pain!!

There are several stories about what actually took place. I'm trying to get some confirmation on what.

I'm hoping to get a copy of the report, if one was actually written, to see what it has to say.

 

[Festus_Hagen]

After reading the many posts, no, this gentleman did nothing wrong, from a legal standpoint. But there are two points here: legal and political.

From a political point, which is what mspgunner I think may be trying to get across; this gentleman didn't help with the politicians. When OC preemption or something very similar comes up this year in the legislature, the anti's will bring this up, plus the Aurora, plus the MWAG in from the STL area, etc, and use it to once again to defeat OC legislation. Will it be successful? Let's hope not. I agree, these folks were just exercising their 2A. But from the political side of the fence, it prolly wasn't a check mark in the '+' column. Here in MO, there is an effort to gain statewide preemptive OC; thus removing the many lil cities/municipalities that you have to research (and still may not know if OC is legal) to know when you can OC in their jurisdiction, it's a royal pain!!

There are several stories about what actually took place. I'm trying to get some confirmation on what.

I'm hoping to get a copy of the report, if one was actually written, to see what it has to say.

Good post, and spot on .

I'd like to see the report as well if you have any luck . :-0