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tacoma mall incident, first post, etc, could use some advice.

BigDave

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RCW 9.73 is dealing with Recording Private Communications, does one have an expectancy of having a private conversation in a bar, mall, park or generally in public, not likely as there is every chance to be over heard and not like if you were in your home.
 

gogodawgs

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[h=2]RCW 9.73.030[/h][h=1]Intercepting, recording, or divulging private communication — Consent required — Exceptions.[/h]
(1) Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, it shall be unlawful for any individual, partnership, corporation, association, or the state of Washington, its agencies, and political subdivisions to intercept, or record any:

(b) Private conversation, by any device electronic or otherwise designed to record or transmit such conversation regardless how the device is powered or actuated without first obtaining the consent of all the persons engaged in the conversation.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.73.030

"It shall be unlawful.... (or) record any.... Private Conversation."

Now it is cited as illegal.

The rest of your statement makes no sense.
The courts have ruled that if it's conversation on a cell phone, that it's free and clear for anyone to record the calls.
Perhaps you can clarify.... if your saying I can record your phone conversations without your consent and the courts have ruled otherwise then cite the courts that have said so, please.

I agree that the key word is private. If you and I are having a conversation in a public place and we are keeping our voices down and avoiding being overheard then we both expect privacy and thus the conversation is private. You or I do not have the right to record that conversation without the consent of the other person.
 

Freedom1Man

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http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.73.030

"It shall be unlawful.... (or) record any.... Private Conversation."

Now it is cited as illegal.

The rest of your statement makes no sense. Perhaps you can clarify.... if your saying I can record your phone conversations without your consent and the courts have ruled otherwise then cite the courts that have said so, please.

I agree that the key word is private. If you and I are having a conversation in a public place and we are keeping our voices down and avoiding being overheard then we both expect privacy and thus the conversation is private. You or I do not have the right to record that conversation without the consent of the other person.

http://voices.yahoo.com/landmark-court-case-says-text-messages-not-private-11541134.html

I am having trouble finding the other court case. It was odd that I found the case the first time.

Close but not what I was looking for
http://coyoteprime-runningcauseican...04/your-cell-phone-calls-are-not-private.html
 
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sudden valley gunner

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Flora only applies to public employees whereas the discussion occurs during their official duties.

Agreed and would ad though that Flora does mention a little more in addition to public officials. But that generally in public where no expectation of privacy the recording can be made. I think it's Clark vs. Seattle mentions that too.
 

gogodawgs

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http://voices.yahoo.com/landmark-court-case-says-text-messages-not-private-11541134.html

I am having trouble finding the other court case. It was odd that I found the case the first time.

Close but not what I was looking for
http://coyoteprime-runningcauseican...04/your-cell-phone-calls-are-not-private.html

The case applies to stored text messages (and perhaps stored voice mail) And not to cell phones conversations without consent or a warrant. (Actual case: http://www.courts.wa.gov/opinions/pdf/41037-1.12.doc.pdf)

So again, your previous statements regarding the subject are not supported.
 

BigDave

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I agree that the key word is private. If you and I are having a conversation in a public place and we are keeping our voices down and avoiding being overheard then we both expect privacy and thus the conversation is private. You or I do not have the right to record that conversation without the consent of the other person.

I disagree if one has a conversation in public there is not a reasonable expectation of privacy, you might want it to be and would like it to be but I feel it would be unreasonable to expect it to be private.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Remember they had to write a specific law to ban upskirt cameras and videos in public.

It seems to me what is private is a very narrow scope.
 
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Jeff Hayes

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I do not see how anyone could expect privacy in a public place. I would go so far as to include audio recording in a public restroom. About the only place anyone could reasonably expect privacy would be in your home or business if it is not open to the general public. Telephone conversations recorded by a bystander would also be within the law. Recording a conversation on a telephone line would be another thing entirely and I would think that would need all parties permission/notification.

Remember if it were unlawful to record people in public most everyone that uses a video camera at a kids sporting event would be a criminal.

Just my .02 worth.
 

gogodawgs

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A communication is private when (1) the communicating parties manifest a subjective intention that it be private and (2) that expectation is reasonable. Christensen, 153 Wn.2d at 193. Factors bearing on the reasonableness of the privacy expectation include the duration and subject matter of the communication, the location of the communication and the potential presence of third parties, and the role of the non consenting party and his or her relationship to the consenting party. Townsend, 147 Wn.2d at 673-74. But the mere possibility that interception of the communication is technologically feasible does not render public a communication that is otherwise private
. Townsend, 147 Wn.2d at 674.

The WA Supreme's use the above standard....
 

stalfos

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Huh. I'm amazed to see that this thread is somehow still going.

Anyway, some good information has come from this, some useless, some plain bad or contradictory. Those that have offered to provide some insight into anything relevant here, thanks...

Regarding my personal thoughts, feelings and opinions, I've apologized for either misinterpreting or misunderstanding things that others have said, if I was indeed mistaken, in cases where that may have been a possibility. In other cases, I stand by my statements and reserve the right to my perspective based on impressions others have provided either directly or unwittingly and unknowingly.

With that being said, I find the more recent discussion here on the legalities of recording outside conversations interesting from a legal exploration standpoint and might like to see a separate thread dedicated to it, for the sake of simplicity maybe? Some may not be interested in another "new oc'r with a mistaken perspective on this or that" type thread and never see the discussion that's happening here as a result and honestly, I think that'd be a shame.

just a thought. thanks...
 

BigDave

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. Townsend, 147 Wn.2d at 674.

The WA Supreme's use the above standard....

Interesting cherry picking.....The case being cited is dealing with text on a cell phone which involved drugs and sex with a minor.


We engage in a four-pronged analysis to determine whether an individual has violated the

Act. State v. Christensen, 153 Wn.2d 186, 192, 102 P.3d 789 (2004). There must have been (1)

a private communication transmitted by a device, which was (2) intercepted by use of (3) a device

designed to record and/or transmit, (4) without the consent of all parties to the private

communication. Christensen, 153 Wn.2d at 192 (citing RCW 9.73.030).

"[W]hether a particular communication is private is generally a question of fact, but one

that may be decided as a question of law if the facts are undisputed." State v. Townsend, 147

Wn.2d 666, 673, 57 P.3d 255 (2002). Because the Act does not define "private," our Supreme

Court has adopted the dictionary definition: "belonging to one's self . . . secret . . . intended only

for the persons involved (a conversation) . . . holding a confidential relationship to something . . .

a secret message: a private communication . . . secretly: not open or in public." Townsend, 147

Wn.2d at 673 (internal quotation marks omitted) (quoting Kadoranian v. Bellingham Police

Dep't, 119 Wn.2d 178, 190, 829 P.2d 1061 (1992) (quoting State v. Forrester, 21 Wn. App. 855,

4

41037-1-II / 41047-8-II

861, 587 P.2d 179 (1978) (quoting Webster's Third New International Dictionary (1969))).

A communication is private when (1) the communicating parties manifest a subjective

intention that it be private and (2) that expectation is reasonable. Christensen, 153 Wn.2d at 193.

Factors bearing on the reasonableness of the privacy expectation include the duration and subject

matter of the communication, the location of the communication and the potential presence of

third parties, and the role of the nonconsenting party and his or her relationship to the consenting

party. Townsend, 147 Wn.2d at 673-74. But the mere possibility that interception of the

communication is technologically feasible does not render public a communication that is

otherwise private. Townsend, 147 Wn.2d at 674.

Townsend is instructive with regard to the issues of what constitutes a "private

communication" and what constitutes consent. There, police set up a sting operation after

receiving tips that Donald Townsend was attempting to use his computer to arrange sexual

liaisons with young girls. Townsend, 147 Wn.2d at 670. A police detective established an e-mail

account with a screen name of "ambergirl87," a fictitious 13-year-old girl. Townsend, 147 Wn.2d

at 670. Townsend began corresponding with "Amber" via e-mail, asking to meet her and saying

that he wanted to "have fun" with her. Townsend, 147 Wn.2d at 670. In one e-mail, he asked

"Amber" to promise not to "tell anyone about us." Townsend, 147 Wn.2d at 670. The

detective's computer automatically stored these e-mail messages, which allowed the detective to

read the messages at his leisure and to print them for use as evidence at a later time. Townsend,

147 Wn.2d at 670.
 

gogodawgs

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Interesting cherry picking.....The case being cited is dealing with text on a cell phone which involved drugs and sex with a minor.

No, not cherry picking. Townsend (original case) is what the court used in this current case. (Roden, linked below)

Townsend, 147 Wn.2d at 674.

The WA Supreme's use the above standard....

It is apparently the standard the appellate and supreme court uses to define what is private.

The case applies to stored text messages (and perhaps stored voice mail) And not to cell phones conversations without consent or a warrant. (Actual case: http://www.courts.wa.gov/opinions/pdf/41037-1.12.doc.pdf)

So again, your previous statements regarding the subject are not supported.

Now if you are done trying to play 'got ya' dave.... please contribute something to the substance of the argument.
 

kparker

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I do not see how anyone could expect privacy in a public place.
The problem with this statement is that--like it or not--"a reasonable expectation of privacy" is really a legal term of art, and not all that closely correlated with what an average person would "reasonably" expect. (The same is true for stuff like whether or not a "reasonable" person feels they are or aren't being detained in a police encounter.) Go read all the stuff Orin Kerr writes on 4th-Amendment issues at www.volokh.com if you want some mind-blowing examples...
 

BigDave

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No, not cherry picking. Townsend (original case) is what the court used in this current case. (Roden, linked below)

It is apparently the standard the appellate and supreme court uses to define what is private.

Now if you are done trying to play 'got ya' dave.... please contribute something to the substance of the argument.

Nothing about playing gotcha, just providing a little more what was being quoted as it was or is dealing with cell phone text messages, it is about the details and to reemphasize "A communication is private when (1) the communicating parties manifest a subjective intention that it be private and (2) that expectation is reasonable. Christensen, 153 Wn.2d at 193.
 

Jeff Hayes

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The problem with this statement is that--like it or not--"a reasonable expectation of privacy" is really a legal term of art, and not all that closely correlated with what an average person would "reasonably" expect. (The same is true for stuff like whether or not a "reasonable" person feels they are or aren't being detained in a police encounter.) Go read all the stuff Orin Kerr writes on 4th-Amendment issues at www.volokh.com if you want some mind-blowing examples...

I was speaking in broad terms, generalities not specific. There would of course be a big difference between walking down the sidewalk with your recorder running and recording someone on the phone and following someone to record their side of the conversation. Also public employee vs private party. I will stand by my statement that there can be no expectation of privacy in a public place, the parties that want privacy would need to take steps to insure their privacy such as moving to the side lowering their voices etc. Simply walking through the food court at the mall privacy could not be expected.
 

amlevin

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Remember they had to write a specific law to ban upskirt cameras and videos in public.

That's funny. It took a law to actually make one's "privates" private even while in public
roflmao1.gif


Since this thread is about Tacoma Mall and their policies, here's an article from today's paper. Seems like the "Ninth" needs some help from WA State's Supreme Court on whether the Tacoma Mall really has a responsibility to protect their Customers. Who knows, maybe they'll deal with the issue of "stripping" the Customers of their means of self defense by carrying firearms. I'd be interested in knowing what the "questions" the "Ninth" had for the State Judges.

http://heraldnet.com/article/201208...state-Supreme-Court-for-help-in-mall-shooting
 
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gogodawgs

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I was speaking in broad terms, generalities not specific. There would of course be a big difference between walking down the sidewalk with your recorder running and recording someone on the phone and following someone to record their side of the conversation. Also public employee vs private party. I will stand by my statement that there can be no expectation of privacy in a public place, the parties that want privacy would need to take steps to insure their privacy such as moving to the side lowering their voices etc. Simply walking through the food court at the mall privacy could not be expected.

I think that gogodawgs and Orphan could have a private conversation at the mall.
First, we would need to perhaps walk over to a corner so that there is just a brick wall behind us...(the communicating parties manifest a subjective intention that it be private)
Second, we would make sure we are out of earshot of others...(making the expectation reasonable)
Third, the conversation would be short and specific....(covering the duration)
That seems to meet the expectations of the court below...

A communication is private when (1) the communicating parties manifest a subjective intention that it be private and (2) that expectation is reasonable. Christensen, 153 Wn.2d at 193. Factors bearing on the reasonableness of the privacy expectation include the duration and subject matter of the communication, the location of the communication and the potential presence of third parties, and the role of the non consenting party and his or her relationship to the consenting party. Townsend, 147 Wn.2d at 673-74. But the mere possibility that interception of the communication is technologically feasible does not render public a communication that is otherwise private. Townsend, 147 Wn.2d at 674.


While it may be difficult to have a private conversation, it is not impossible. Having a third non-consenting party record gogodawgs/Orphan's conversation would be problematic and most likely illegal in the above scenario. Of course if either of us wanted to record the conversation then we would need to announce such on the recording.
 
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Jeff Hayes

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I think that gogodawgs and Orphan could have a private conversation at the mall.
First, we would need to perhaps walk over to a corner so that there is just a brick wall behind us...(the communicating parties manifest a subjective intention that it be private)
Second, we would make sure we are out of earshot of others...(making the expectation reasonable)
Third, the conversation would be short and specific....(covering the duration)
That seems to meet the expectations of the court below...

I think we are barking up two different trees here. I am talking about a random recording not someone spying in us.

If in your scenario someone walked by with a recording device say a video camera running and happened to record our conversation as they walked by then no law is broken. We are in public and that person with the video camera has no way to know that we are seeking privacy. Thus my statement that there can be no expectation of privacy in a public place.

Now if Deros72 is stalking us like he always does and recording us that would be unlawful.


While it may be difficult to have a private conversation, it is not impossible. Having a third non-consenting party record gogodawgs/Orphan's conversation would be problematic and most likely illegal in the above scenario. Of course if either of us wanted to record the conversation then we would need to announce such on the recording.

But it is also very possible to be recorded by a third party that has no idea we are seeking privacy not on purpose but just because we happen to be in a public place.
 
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