Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner
I am against taxes being taken by force and not paid voluntarily. The founders were not necessarily as I covered before not just against taxation without representation (which we don't get) they were against taxing without consent, they were for government of consent.
We beat the force/voluntary thing to death we will not see eye to eye, so no point in wasting space.
You cant just ignore the fundamental part of the argument. Just because you disagree with it doesn't make it true.
The ironic thing is if you were arguing for minarchy and our government was minarchist, anarchy would not be gaining the popularity it is now. It is the statist who are leading to their own downfall.
I'm not arguing for anything. You keep saying MY represenation or theories. I asked a question for clarification of YOUR stance. This is YOUR thread on how how YOU feel. My only "theory" has been without ANY taxes then the entire country would collapse. No more no less. I never said how much or who should get it or how it should be spent.
You are not just asking questions your arguments are very clear in this thread and others on your viewpoints. And the main point of this thread is still being ignored by you. If it isn't force go take what you feel you need yourself.
I can live with a gas tax as a use tax, but even that is too high and mismanaged, my state will tax itself on projects funded by the gas tax up to 50% making the cost of these 1/3 more to commit fraud on it's citizens so they can take more taxes into the general fund that were not approved.
The other problem with your theory of representation, is there is no protection for the minority because it means either the stronger party (not necessarily the majority party) or the majority party wins and that the rest must capitulate to their demands. These are things the constitution were to restrict and why as brought out by WW, taxes were to be by other means than directly upon the people.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the same system is in place that has been since they scrapped the the Articles of Confederation. This system of representation wasn't just developed last week....was designed and signed into law with all the rest of the things you do like.
Your knowledge of history is based on what? It is not the same "system" at all. If the promises made by the federalist were actually kept we more than likely wouldn't be having this conversation.
Your assumption that because government has pirated so many of the items mentions that these wouldn't occur or would be worse is a false premise. Please read Bastiat's What is seen and what is unseen.
Madison vetoed a roads bill as unconstitutional, he thought it was a good idea but would require a constitutional amendment. Proactive policing to a group of people who just fought a war partly due to the unconstitutional proactive policing of the Crown and his peons the redcoats, would be a repugnant notion. But Dale Brown in Detroit is a shining example where you do not need police paid for by force. 70% of U.S.'s firefighters are volunteer now. Why change that it works great. The government should not be funding construction. I will repeat again though the assumption these would not occur because the government funds much of it now is faulty in logic.
I appreciate you giving a good example as a jumping off point. How do you propose it gets funded then? If an interstate highway needs work, who pays for it? Even if you say the States, well it's still a .gov that has to put out the money. How else do you propose the construciton company gets paid? The .gov is merely the representing body of all (majority) of the people who will use it. Hence, States taxes go to state road projects. I wouldn't expect a guy in Texas to pay for my street. But I don't see a problem with other residents of the city paying for the street with me. Also, Volunteer Fire Fighters still get paid my friend....
Private roads are built all the time, it doesn't matter how I propose they get funded if roads are needed they will built. This also ignores my answer to these on another post. Not all volunteer firefighters get paid.....that doesn't make it "volunteer". And many non public firefighters are paid from insurance and private money.
If a government was to exist under natural law, and the theory of justice one may make an argument it exists to 1)protect rights 2) provide defense 3) provide a system for arbitrating disputes (civil and criminal) 4) and my least favorite provide a form of policing to protect our rights. Yet this is rarely the argument put forth by those who worship at the alter of the state. In jingoistic nationalism they put the state above people and create for themselves and force it upon others a top down unnatural system which then provides a rationalization for them to treat others as heretics for not sharing in their city on the hill vision of the state.
noted you didn't even address this paragraph.
I was attempting to discern the old post from the new post but it's all in blue. I was able to gather you avoided coming up with a method for roads to be made, you just said private roads get made. You didn't even answer the idea that the roads would be PRIVATE, or answer my premise that if it was private then who drive on it?
I wasn't ignoring your argument about taxes being taken with force. I refuted it in a few words in a very short sentence, you refuted by saying you don't WANT to do that. One more time for the others reading....
No one forces you to live where you live or work at your job. You voluntarily CHOOSE (key word) to work there and live in that town, county, state, country. You could easily live in another town, county, state, or country to determine exactly how many taxes you want to pay or none. Also, you would have to recind your citzenship as someone pointed out.
I know, it seems like a crazy idea and you'll say "if I have to leave then it's not liberty". My friend, that's exactly what liberty is, the ability to say NO right? So say NO to living there and move. Say NO to an income tax and leave the country. No one will stop you at the border. You are FREE to leave. That is my premise that you knowingly CHOOSE to reside in this wonderful country and the state you live in. Yes you were born their against your will, but your an adult and CHOOSE to stay there. You CHOOSE to accept that if you don't pay your taxes you may be "forcefully" incarcerated. Essentially your in a contract with the .gov.
Finally, Iv'e answered the point of your point of the thread. I have no intentions of taking anything from anyone because I willingly pay taxes by living in my state/country. In fact, I pay more in taxes then alot of guys make (per week) and I'm ok with that. I've accepted that to enjoy the many many freedoms I get, I have to pay something into it. Freedom isn't free....