Training: Cops vs Citizens on OC

[RyanC1985]

when i am asked...'are you a sheriff, police, fed, etc.?' and i gently tell them no, but am allowed to OC.

Amazingly their hands go to their mouth and say "REALLY!!" or "I DIDN'T KNOW THAT!!" and my favorite: "ARE YOU SURE??"

then the education process begins and while most are polite and listen, others just huff off shaking their heads muttering under their breath...'why would he need a gun...he's just looking for trouble...etc.'

i continue about my business...

wabbit

PS: concerted 30 sec tv spots would go a long way to assisting (educating) the public but won't happen as there are some who wish the controversy to continue...

Public service announcements would go along way

 

[hermannr]

RyanC1985: Please read this: http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/sirens/2011/nov/22/city-council-rebukes-thompson-salute/ and the following.....

Sgt Thompson was convicted in FEDERAL court of using excessive force and lying to investigators, in the beating, then suffication, death of Otto Zehm, a downs syndrom, gainfully employed janitor, as Mr. Zehm was purchasing a soda in a convience store 5 1/2 YEARS ago! (BTW: there were 7 other SPD officers present at that convience store when this happened...oh yes, and one in-store camara that told a completely different story)

Now, AFTER Sgt Thompson was CONVICTED, this salute happened (see link above).... and we are supposed to respect jack booted thugs like this?????

The reason people like Thompson don't want normal law abiding citizens to carry, is they do not want their "authority" to possibly be questioned...

If you don't think so, read this carefully... http://www.inlander.com/spokane/article-16511-unanswered-questions.html Now answer this question: If Pastor Creech, while on his own property, at night, investigating an unmarked car, at his closed business, was "not acting agressively",,,,why did he get shot? Read the whole article fully, and thoughtfully...please.

It stinks rotten that this Spokane deputy was not held accountable. There was no excuse for this murder.

Add quote: “Hirzel’s own testimony says a citizen approached, he did have a gun at his side, was half-dressed, but says the person never pointed the gun at him and never threatened him,”

 

[RyanC1985]

RyanC1985: Please read this: http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/sirens/2011/nov/22/city-council-rebukes-thompson-salute/ an the following.....

Sgt Thompson was convicted in FEDERAL court of using excessive force and lying to investigators, in the beating, then suffication, death of Otto Zehm, a downs syndrom, gainfully employed janitor, as Mr. Zehm was purchasing a soda in a convience store 5 1/2 YEARS ago! (BTW: there were 7 other SPD officers present at that convience store when this happened...oh yes, and one in-store camara that told a completely different story)

Now, AFTER Sgt Thompson was CONVICTED, this salute happened (see link above).... and we are supposed to respect jack booted thugs like this?????

The reason people like Thompson don't want normal law abiding citizens to carry, is they do not want their "authority" to possible be questioned...

If you don't think so, read this carefully... http://www.inlander.com/spokane/article-16511-unanswered-questions.html Now answer he question: If Pastor Creech, while on his own property, at night, investigating an unmarked car, at his closed business, was "not acting agressively",,,,why did he get shot? Read the whole article fully, and thoughtfully...please.

It stinks rotten that this Spokane deputy was not held accountable. There was no excuse for this murder.

Umm, did you not read the thread...I already said there are bad cops out there and they should be held accountable just like any other. Most officers do a great job, but you seem to disregard the literally millions of police/citizen interactions that end peacefully with both parties satisfied with the results.

 

[OC for ME]

I hardly think both parties are satisfied with the result. Please cite data that supports your assertion. My view is that the vast majority of LEO/citizen contacts are traffic infraction related and I know of no citizen (anecdotal evidence) that was satisfied with the result. Now, if you classify satisfied as meaning that the citizen was free to leave after a 'brief' detainment, and it will only 'cost' them a relatively small amount of money, then I agree with your assertion.

I'll even go so far and state that even when the contact is LEO/victim (home break-in/burglary type contacts) that the citizen is likely not satisfied with the result. This would not be the responding LEOs fault, but that is just how folks roll. That LEO will bear the brunt of the victim's frustration because he is there. It sucks, it is not fair, and this is where citizens need to really step up and control their emotions, the LEO is trying to be supportive and really help the citizen. He, the LEO, really is trying to do the best job he can.

 

[Daylen]

I wouldn't judge all cops on the actions of few...a few bad apples in every occupation. Alot of officers are out there everyday trying to make difference, willing to put themselves on the line for others...even for those who refuse to give respect to an individual willing to risk their lives for a complete stranger.

I wouldn't judge all cops on the actions of a few good cops. My post was not intended as that type of barb however. Instead it was to highlight that most days police are not practicing anything on the job because nothing is required. The world is not that of Dirty Harry where violent crimes are happening around every corner with police having daily or even weekly shootouts. And its alot easier to be brave when you know shooting first is ok because the courts and prosecutors will protect you.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Umm, did you not read the thread...I already said there are bad cops out there and they should be held accountable just like any other. Most officers do a great job, but you seem to disregard the literally millions of police/citizen interactions that end peacefully with both parties satisfied with the results.

Really? Now that made me laugh.....

Just because people are afraid to really say what's on their mind to an officer in an encounter and put on a fake smile and say thank sir, does not mean they are "satisfied" with the results.

Of course if they don't suddenly they are labeled as "belligerant", "uncooperative"," nervous", "agressive" and the hundreds of other little boiler plate words meant to taint the judge and jury's perception of the encounter.

And please stop using a "few bad apples" argument, it holds no water with me. The system is corrupt and growing more corrupt day by day. You can't stick good apples in a rotten barrel and expect people to like the barrel.

 

[Daylen]

...
And please stop using a "few bad apples" argument, it holds no water with me. The system is corrupt and growing more corrupt day by day. You can't stick good apples in a rotten barrel and expect people to like the barrel.

I agree, the bad apples must be thrown out, either into the compost, or pulped for juice. Painting the bad apples red so they can hide with the rest just makes me want to throw the barrel out. I don't need apples, I can live without them.

 

[lysander6]

I have been lurking for awhile but rarely posting. I have been following both of these threads and find it deeply disturbing. I don’t think there are a few bad apples. If bad apples remain with the good ones, guess what happens. It is the bad cops that give the good 2% a bad name.

My problem is with the whole LEO culture…period. Whether we look at the local travesty in Tucson where Jose Guerena was gunned down ( I went to the house and got to see the 50+ rounds of the 71 that did not impact the body of Guerena and buried themselves throughout the house and two neighbor’s homes and did, thankfully, not ventilate Mrs. G or her toddler). This from their elite SWAT unit. All dismissed after an internal investigation, of course.

Or the young homeless man beaten to death in CA.

Go here for a whole cavalcade of stories about cops gone bad:

http://www.copblock.org/

http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/

We need to address the core issue which is why do all these laws exist in the first place? For power and control. Nothing else. Less than eight percent of all Federal inmates are caged for crimes of violence. There are now seven million Americans in cages, on probation or on parole.

With so many folks caged or chained for non-violent offenses, why are cops so violent with everyone they arrest?

I hear plenty of bellyaching on this forum about how the political process puts their freedoms and liberties at risk or eliminate them entirely, yet if the cops did not exist, the politicians would be helpless to enslave a population or yoke them to their anti-freedom agendas.

Until we wake up out of our collective fever dream and cashier every cop in existence and ask them to find some productive work, there are some measures we can take:

1. Make every cop personally responsible for his bonding and insuring for his conduct on duty. Put his entire financial future at stake every time he abuses his authority or maims or kills someone. There is a reason the much maligned mall cops don’t make the news for maiming and killing both innocents and suspects. They do not have a perverse incentive structure that punishes taxpayers for police misconduct.

2. Stop the perverse “officer safety” BS that puts their lives dearer than the cattle they are allegedly “serving and protecting”. If you are that concerned for your safety, get another job.

3. Disarm them, all of them and if they need to go after someone dangerous, request assistance from armed citizens then the incentives aren’t as perverse as they are now. Cops literally get away with murder…everyday.

And, Ryan, please don’t sing the soliloquy about cop-hater or some other such nonsense. This is not about hate but sheer self-defense for the way the country is now, everyone is minutes away from a violent arrest and a ruinous span of their life caged for offenses against the state. Everyone.

I am a former Sheriff’s Deputy with six years experience. The system is rotten to the core and no band-aids will cure its ills. A top to bottom fumigation is required.

BTW, no to formal training requirements

 

[OC for ME]

The problem that we face trying to 'clean out the 'bad apples'. We Americans are truly a forgiving people. Even where forgiveness is not warranted.

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/Family-dog-killed-mix-up/nGPnF/

Note the homeowners comments at the end of the story.

 

[07Altima]

Well I think my test is over

I tested to see if I would get more attn. when walking around with no family, and no Veteran hat on!!! I Received 3 negative remarks, 4 questions, 13 people looked at me in shock. This was done in Washington state not wearing anything saying veteran on it, and with no kids or wife with me.

for the last 9 mo. I have openly carried in Washington state, while I was wearing my Veterans hat or I was walking with my wife or kids or all 3 I never so much as received a single negative comment, I had 2 questions asked, and maybe 3 or 4 squirmy looks. I received 25 pats on the back dozens of smiles, 12 handshakes, 7 cops who just chatted with me about how they like seeing it! now those were 5 Sno. County Sheriffs 2 Everett Cops, I had 7 people wave at me, 3 people tell me I am brave ballsy, and one guy put it nuts of steel! I have had 3 women thank me 5 kids say something to mom about it, and got smiles back from them. I have been told by 3 Indians they wished it was more common, 2 native Americans said as long as I am not a psycho they are all for it. 6 black guys said damn nice piece or something to that effect! in different forms. one old man from Peru said he liked my holster. I counted 20 or so Veterans wave at me, or nod in my general direction!!! I have been asked 2 times about if its legal because they want to do it also!

I have received 4 questions asking if I knew how to use it, and thank God I did lol. I carry a Raging Judge I have not been given any undue attn. of any kind, I have not been stopped ever! I have not been kicked out of any store or been asked to remove it as of yet. I have never had the cops called or any threat made to me about it. I have Openly Carried on Tribal land did so at the New Cabelas on the Res. I was seen 15 or 16 times by police WA state troopers, Res police, 2 FBI 3 ATF and a dozen other times outside the store.

for the forum nazi's not every black guy said nice piece but all the comments were of that sense ie nice gun, thats a nice piece, like side arm things like that. Not a single thing I say in here should be construed to word for word as I can not recall the exact way people have said things to me, however I do feel I was able to get the point across which was the main goal, not perfect word for word dialog. Hey guys I do understand the need for that from time to time, but this was meant more to try and answer their question about training, and I feel that my hat, is proof that may be part of the issue, also family seems to keep things at bay as well, it seems to cause far less concern when I am with my wife, and kids so there may be several factors involved here, I like to think that a large part may be due to Holder "Hitler's" comment about brainwashing people into fearing the sight of a gun, or fear the concept of one to the point of throwing up at their sight.

Hope things are good, and hope you all are doing great too. Also aware my Grammar sucks still working on it.

 

[since9]

i was reading a few posts and started to think about why some of the Public are uneasy about seeing a citizen carrying openly, yet have no issue with Police OCing. i thought I would raise the question, Is it because they think citizens are less trained, therefore more prone to accidents? I'm all for Training and think everyone who carries should take personal responsibility when Exercising their rights. I think Most people do so and are well trained by the way.

I don't think citizens ever consider our training.

I believe the issue is that when they see a uniformed law enforcement officer, they know that officer went through a good deal of screening, including very in-depth background check and a few months of training at the police academy. When they see a badge shown them by a plainclothesman, they think much the same. It's a conditioned response, yes, but it's based on years of conditioning and some pretty good data.

When they see me walking around carrying a firearm, they simply see the gun and an unknown. A few ask me, "Are you a cop?" because they're trying to reduce the unknown factor. It's the unknown factor which causes them tension. I've found a simple smile and a "Good morning, Sir/Ma'am. No, I'm a privately armed citizen" does wonders to help reduce their tension. I've also discovered while standing in line at the grocery store, it helps ease any tension in others if I'm alert, but relaxed, confident, cheery, and polite. That's not the sort of behavior they expect in a criminal, yet it's precisely the sort of behavior they expect in a law enforcement officer.

What can OCers do to get rid of this notion(if it is the case) that Law abiding citizens are less trained?

Aside from wearing marksmanship ribbons, as if your average citizen would know what the heck they represented, anyway, I think the best way is as per my comments above.

 

[OC for ME]

Cops are just as prone to bad things (break the law) as anyone else in society. It is really bad when they break the law while doing their job. It is exceptionally saddening when those cops breaking the law while on the job actually think they are doing a good job, while not realizing they are breaking the law.

No, your average cop is likely to be less proficient at small arms usage than the average OCer or CCWer. When the weight of the legal system follows us around, waiting to pounce, we OCers and CCWers tend to want to be a little 'more better' than the average 'Joe'.

 

[ldsgeek]

Cops are just as prone to bad things (break the law) as anyone else in society. It is really bad when they break the law while doing their job. It is exceptionally saddening when those cops breaking the law while on the job actually think they are doing a good job, while not realizing they are breaking the law.

No, your average cop is likely to be less proficient at small arms usage than the average OCer or CCWer. When the weight of the legal system follows us around, waiting to pounce, we OCers and CCWers tend to want to be a little 'more better' than the average 'Joe'.

I think the reported stats indicate that, if anything, cops are more likely to do bad things than armed citizens, not sure how they relate to the population in general.

 

[since9]

I think the reported stats indicate that, if anything, cops are more likely to do bad things than armed citizens, not sure how they relate to the population in general.

Can't remember specifics, just order of percentage of incidents:
Cops: most
general population: average
RKBA carriers: least

In their defense, cops move towards trouble. Don't know about the rest of you, but I'm not looking for trouble, and do what I can to stay out of locations, situations, and times where trouble is more prevalent.

 

[OC for ME]

Yes, cops do move to trouble. Then again cops manufacture quite a bit of trouble too.

 

[Gil223]

I don't think citizens ever consider our training.

I believe the issue is that when they see a uniformed law enforcement officer, they know that officer went through a good deal of screening, including very in-depth background check and a few months of training at the police academy. When they see a badge shown them by a plainclothesman, they think much the same. It's a conditioned response, yes, but it's based on years of conditioning and some pretty good data.

A valid point, s9. I think you're absolutely correct about the citizens view of uniformed officers. However... just for a moment, consider how many armed OC'ers and documented CC'ers there are in the USA. Now, ask yourself what percentage of those LAC's are in forums of this type? Somewhere between .001% and 100% if obvious, but even a semi-accurate approximation is extremely difficult to come by. People who do frequent forums similar to this one, are personally motivated to develop a particular survival skill-set, and probably practice much more frequently than the average handgun owner. BUT... we (as in: this particular forum group) are only organized here in the forum. Our training isn't standardized, we don't hold tactical exercises or competitions, and there are no specified levels of achievement for us as a "community" (for lack of a better word). I will guess, that we who are truly dedicated to the proper and lawful application of firearms as a means of self-defense, make up a very small percentage of firearms owners... something around 10% perhaps? The public is well-aware that LEO's have had some kind of standardized training in the use of firearms, but they have no idea what kind - or even IF - that person standing in line at the grocery store has any training (or even good sense). From that perspective, a certain amount of uneasiness on the part of John Q. Public is understandable. But, running panicked through the streets (like Chicken Little), screaming "MAN WITH A GUN, MAN WITH A GUN!!" is not. Let's face it, "our training" is not collectively consistent. Education, not political indoctrination, is the key to putting John Q. at ease. Pax...

 

[D.A.D.]

Truth or Dare?

I have enjoyed reading through many of the posts in this thread and others like it. One comes away with the sense (and rightfully so) that private citizens openly carrying a firearm are perceived as a threat to the general population. When I say "rightfully so" I mean that, even in states where open carry is legal, there are still negative connotations to open carry perpetuated by law enforcement and unquestioned by the media.

Both myself and a friend, independently of the other knowing, contacted our local police department and asked what their response would be if we were to walk through the downtown streets of our city openly carrying a firearm. They responded without hesitation, "You would be cited for disturbing the peace." Obviously not an attitude that invites open communication. Being the person I am, I really don't want to invite such a confrontation or deal with the aggravation of a court appearance and the publicity that may come with it. On the other hand, if you don't do it you lose it (sound familiar?).

I would be interested in any responses to this, especially from those who may be in law enforcement who may have received instructions from their CO or COP to respond to citizens practicing open carry.

For the record, I do not live in this city, but work there 6 days a week. Living in the country, I can legally carry (open or concealed) on my own property at will. I have on occasion forgotten that I am carrying and made a run to the nearest small town to buy fuel, feed, etc. without incident. I have also been keeping a loaded weapon in the front seat of my car, in the open, when travelling back and forth to work. I often contemplate the conversation I might have with a LEO if I would happened to get pulled over for some reason.

Anyway, any LEO have any input into this situation? How about any of you that have been down this road?



"If it isn't loaded, what good is it?" - Me

 

[twoskinsonemanns]

IMHO the issue has nothing to do with training REALLY.
It is about conditioning. The blessed TV has been telling us for ever that only cops can be trusted with a gun. Anyone else with a gun is a crook. I seriously doubt people's attitude toward guns comes from a thoughtful reflection of training programs for cops vs civilians training at a range.
"Guns, not in the hands of cops, kill children..." It's been whispered into the ears of the masses for years.

 

[lysander6]

IMHO the issue has nothing to do with training REALLY.
It is about conditioning. The blessed TV has been telling us for ever that only cops can be trusted with a gun. Anyone else with a gun is a crook. I seriously doubt people's attitude toward guns comes from a thoughtful reflection of training programs for cops vs civilians training at a range.
"Guns, not in the hands of cops, kill children..." It's been whispered into the ears of the masses for years.

Amen. If you arrived from Mars and only watch TV to get your cultural IQ booted up, you come away thinking that most businessmen kill other businessmen to compete, cops solve all crimes and government is the only barrier to utter barbarism and other asinine notions. I would submit that training is a form of conditioning and in the hands of private citizens serves a public good and in the hands of cops, a public menace. Whether cops are competent or incompetent, they quite literally get away with murder on a regular basis and the cop worship and fetishism in America only bolsters that.

OC for Me nails it: "Yes, cops do move to trouble. Then again cops manufacture quite a bit of trouble too."

BTW, simply turn your TV off and unplug your cable or satellite soonest.

 

[MKEgal]

Welcome aboard.

even in states where open carry is legal, there are still negative connotations to open carry perpetuated by law enforcement and unquestioned by the media.

Not everywhere, and the wrong-thinking places & rogue LEO are becoming rarer.
Sometimes it takes multiple lawsuits before they start following the law.

contacted our local police department and asked what their response would be if we were to walk through the downtown streets of our city openly carrying a firearm. They responded without hesitation, "You would be cited for disturbing the peace." Obviously not an attitude that invites open communication. Being the person I am, I really don't want to invite such a confrontation or deal with the aggravation of a court appearance and the publicity that may come with it.

That's called something like intimidation under color of law.
I'm forgetting the right (legal) name, but basically they're threatening that if you do something completely legal - peacefully exercising your protected civil rights - they will make your life difficult, & because of that illegal threat you're intimidated into not exercising your rights, or doing it less, or changing something.
That's wrong, it's a federal crime, don't let them get away with it.
If they'd said the same about voting, or going to church, how would you feel & what would you do?

(BTW, did you speak with the department attorney, or the chief who sets policy, or an officer, or just some clerk who happened to answer the phone? If it wasn't one of the first 2, contacting them & pointing out that some training is needed so their employees don't get the department into a federal civil rights suit might solve the problem.)