TWO INCIDENTS of OC harassment against me IN A WEEK --- TOO MUCH FOR ME

[Richard6218]

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I just got off the phone with Jim Estes, security manager for Brown & Cole Stores, who operate Cost Cutter. I outlined my discussion with the guy at the Ferndale store without saying which store. He said he himself owns a gun and has a CCW license but he doesn't carry in their stores. As to customers OC'ing he said he defends his manager's action in telling me no OC. So Cost Cutter stores are off-limits to OC. I didn't ask him what would happen if I did it anyway, but I think I know: it's inviting an LEO confrontation. Somebody else with more gonies than I have can carry this from here. I don't want that kind of trouble. Gun-haters win.

I think Cost Cutter should be put on the Do_Not-Patronize list. Estes said that doesn't intimidate him in the least. His business is selling groceries and he doesn't want to lose the 75-year-old LOL who's there buying her cat food. I guess he doesn't want gunowners in his store, period.

I haven't made contact with Haggen's guy yet. I'm not optimistic that will turn out much better.

 

[heresolong]

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Richard6218 wrote:

I just got off the phone with Jim Estes, security manager for Brown & Cole Stores, who operate Cost Cutter. I outlined my discussion with the guy at the Ferndale store without saying which store. He said he himself owns a gun and has a CCW license but he doesn't carry in their stores. As to customers OC'ing he said he defends his manager's action in telling me no OC. So Cost Cutter stores are off-limits to OC.

Richard,

Take it up the chain. If he did not confirm a store policy but just told you that he was OK with the manager doing what he did it might still be his opinion.

 

[ghosthunter]

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Everyone on this thread is more experienced than I am.

My comment however from a manager's point of view is, When you get to the point that they are saying "no" it does no good to try to get them to change their mind with We Are Going to Put you On A List.

No one is going respond in a positive manner to that, it gets you nothing at this point.

And really you do not know at that point it they will go on the list or not. I am not saying you shouldn't call Corp. Office.But I would never mention the list. It will not matter to the guy saying no.

Just my view

 

[Richard6218]

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ghosthunter, you are 100% on that but I had already pretty much lost the debate before I mentioned the list. When he said he wasn't going to be intimidated by the threat, that put the last nail in the discussion.

Please see the thread Constitutional Conflict for further discussion of the debate with these stores.

 

[ghosthunter]

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Richard6218I have been following your thread since it started as you and I live in the same neck of the woods give 40 miles or so. You are one of my fav. posters. Keep up the good work, you are giving me courage.

 

[heresolong]

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OCd in the Ferndale Haggen yesterday for about the fiftieth time in the past eight months. No comments, no looks, no hassle. Richard, are you sure you aren't openly carrying eight or nine guns?

 

[John Hardin]

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heresolong wrote:

OCd in the Ferndale Haggen yesterday for about the fiftieth time in the past eight months. No comments, no looks, no hassle. Richard, are you sure you aren't openly carrying eight or nine guns?

He softened them up for you.

Richard6218 wrote:

... it seems I have these choices:

1. Continue shopping there and OC'ing, thus risking further, and likely escalated, incidents
2. Continue shopping there and leaving the gun in the car, thus surrendering to these managers (translation: liberalism);
3. Drive further (about 7 miles down I-5 to Fred Meyer) and perhaps create another incident if I OC;
4. Drive further to Fred Meyer and not OC, thereby surrendering completely.

Any reason "carry concealed while shopping there" isn't on the list? Is the ultimate objective of this exercise not self defense?

--

 

[Richard6218]

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A bit by way of update. I was distracted yesterday but I did manage to make a couple phone calls as I had mentioned Monday.

I called the NRA and got a knowledgeable fellow who had a lot of info at his fingertips, except case law. I asked the question of law about the conflict between 2A and property rights and he confirmed that, in general, if a store mgr. wants to kick someone out of his store he has every right to do so. So if the mgr says No guns, then we have to respect that. As to case law he didn't have any details, but he gave me the phone # for the WA Atty Gen's office. I called them and after first getting a dead-end further referral, called back and pressed for info on cases. Atty Gen doesn't do legal research on behalf of individuals, but the person there referred me further to a site www.access.wa.gov I went to that and got some cases but nothing that answered any of our questions. So I think short of hiring a lawyer to research it we've got all the answers we're going to get. The guy at NRA seems to have answered it for us. So as of now, Haggen and Cost Cutter in Ferndale are nominally off-limits for OC. (BTW, the security guy at Cost Cutter did say CC is OK as long as we're properly licensed) I've been into Fred Meyer on Bakerview a couple times with an empty holster. Anyone had any experience with them?

ghosthunter and heresolong, thanks for your support. I'm really just trying to find answers to issues that confront us. Call that finding TRUTH.

It may be that I'm more conspicuous than some when OC'ing. I carry a huge Glock (21C)in a paddle holster that rides high on my hip, except that if my jeans droop down (as they tend to do because of my shape) the gun angles out and probably becomes more obvious. Maybe that's why I seem to get attention, or maybe it's just rotten luck.

 

[joeroket]

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The person at the ATG's office should have referred you to your state senator or legislator. They are the two most common avenues for an AG opinion. I am not sure that this would be an opinion that we would want out in the open though. If you go this route I would ask your Leg. or Sen. to request a non-published opinion so it is not made easily available to the public.

 

[Richard6218]

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John:

This whole discussion is centered around OC, per RCW 9.41.270. CC is a completely separate section, 9.41.050. As someone said a couple days ago, OC is constitutionally protected but CC is a government-controlled privilege. As a practical application of your question, if I CC in a store, no one becomes aware of it and thus it isn't a source of debate.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

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Richard I don't know if anybody answered your question about Fred Meyers, so I'll post.

Freddy's was the first store I OCed in and I have never been bothered there I go there almost on a daily basis being a on stop shop for almost everything. The only time anyone has said anything has been an old neighbor of mine who asked about my glock. And the lady at Starbucks counter in the Lakeway store, and it wasn't negative she said she is pro-gun but shocked when she sees someone openly carrying. I told her thats one reason I carry is to help erase that shock value many in the public have, she agreed that was a good idea.

I know the one off of Bakerview is closer to you, and I have been there several times with no incident at all.

 

[Richard6218]

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sudden valley gunner wrote:

Richard I don't know if anybody answered your question about Fred Meyers, so I'll post.

Freddy's was the first store I OCed in and I have never been bothered there I go there almost on a daily basis being a on stop shop for almost everything. The only time anyone has said anything has been an old neighbor of mine who asked about my glock. And the lady at Starbucks counter in the Lakeway store, and it wasn't negative she said she is pro-gun but shocked when she sees someone openly carrying. I told her thats one reason I carry is to help erase that shock value many in the public have, she agreed that was a good idea.

I know the one off of Bakerview is closer to you, and I have been there several times with no incident at all.

Sudden, thanx for the input. Indeed I have OC'd at Freddie's on Bakerview a couple times but this time of year with my jacket I keep it covered up. The times I have OCd' have been uneventful, however. They have one young lady who sits in a chair by the entry who has not been there when I OC'd -- I t hink her role is more of a greeter than a security type. With warmer days coming I think there will be the chance to find out which.

ANOTHER TOPIC: I was at the South Campus of St. Joseph Hospital today (809 EChestnut) and there were large, very visible signs on all entrances: "No Weapons allowed", with the circle/slash over an image of a handgun. That makes them a candidate for the DNP list, but frankly I can't imagine saying I refuse to go to this or that doctor because there's a no-firearms sign on his door. I think the purpose would be as an advisory to the members to leave the iron in the car at this address.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

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I don't have my cpl yet (wich I finally broke down and applied for last week), so I being paranoid of getting a ticket fro unlicensed concealed make sure it is very visible, and neither Freddy's has harrassed me.

Good thoughts on the Doctors office. I think if I need medical help I might leave my pistol locked up somewhere else (can't picture myself carrying with that darn open backed robe). I wonder if they have that sign up though due to people robbing a lot of places for oxy. Might be better off if they had a few armed patrons.

 

[just_a_car]

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sudden valley gunner wrote:

I wonder if they have that sign up though due to people robbing a lot of places for oxy. Might be better off if they had a few armed patrons.

Nope, a while back the state put forth to all hospitals that receive state funding that they had to develop a safety and security policy that protected their employees and patients. Many hospitals blindly took this as instruction to ban weapons; in violation of state constitution (for public hospitals, such as UWMC).

 

[Richard6218]

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just_a_car wrote:

sudden valley gunner wrote:

I wonder if they have that sign up though due to people robbing a lot of places for oxy. Might be better off if they had a few armed patrons.

Nope, a while back the state put forth to all hospitals that receive state funding that they had to develop a safety and security policy that protected their employees and patients. Many hospitals blindly took this as instruction to ban weapons; in violation of state constitution (for public hospitals, such as UWMC).

And my guess is that these would be a lot harder to get changed than some of the towns and counties. With the local guvmints it's clear-cut when they're breaking the law but a bunch of medical bureaucrats that don't have a clue about the law would be near impossible. So I guess we just go with the flow. FWIW

 

[just_a_car]

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Richard6218 wrote:

just_a_car wrote:

sudden valley gunner wrote:

I wonder if they have that sign up though due to people robbing a lot of places for oxy. Might be better off if they had a few armed patrons.

Nope, a while back the state put forth to all hospitals that receive state funding that they had to develop a safety and security policy that protected their employees and patients. Many hospitals blindly took this as instruction to ban weapons; in violation of state constitution (for public hospitals, such as UWMC).

And my guess is that these would be a lot harder to get changed than some of the towns and counties. With the local guvmints it's clear-cut when they're breaking the law but a bunch of medical bureaucrats that don't have a clue about the law would be near impossible. So I guess we just go with the flow. FWIW

As much as I hate to say it, this is one of those instances that, if you want to carry: "Concealed means Concealed" and I doubt anything else would pass muster with security.

Trust me, I don't like it, but I also understand there are times when concealed is really a necessary "evil", as it were.

 

[Richard6218]

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just_a_car wrote:

Richard6218 wrote:

just_a_car wrote:

sudden valley gunner wrote:

I wonder if they have that sign up though due to people robbing a lot of places for oxy. Might be better off if they had a few armed patrons.

Nope, a while back the state put forth to all hospitals that receive state funding that they had to develop a safety and security policy that protected their employees and patients. Many hospitals blindly took this as instruction to ban weapons; in violation of state constitution (for public hospitals, such as UWMC).

And my guess is that these would be a lot harder to get changed than some of the towns and counties. With the local guvmints it's clear-cut when they're breaking the law but a bunch of medical bureaucrats that don't have a clue about the law would be near impossible. So I guess we just go with the flow. FWIW

As much as I hate to say it, this is one of those instances that, if you want to carry: "Concealed means Concealed" and I doubt anything else would pass muster with security.

Trust me, I don't like it, but I also understand there are times when concealed is really a necessary "evil", as it were.

So what are we supposed to do when we go for a medical exam that requires us to disrobe and ----- OOPS ------ there's a GUN in my clothes! Call Security!

 

[heresolong]

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Richard6218 wrote:

So what are we supposed to do when we go for a medical exam that requires us to disrobe and ----- OOPS ------ there's a GUN in my clothes! Call Security!

If I am going in for something that I know will involve undressing I take my backpack and put the firearm inside it.

In our case, St Joseph's is not a public hospital so they can make any rules they want. That being said, if they take you in for an emergency and you happen to have a pistol on you they can't kick you out. I would think that legally all they can do is secure the firearm somehow until you are able to make arrangements to have it removed.

 

[Richard6218]

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heresolong wrote:

Richard6218 wrote:

So what are we supposed to do when we go for a medical exam that requires us to disrobe and ----- OOPS ------ there's a GUN in my clothes! Call Security!

If I am going in for something that I know will involve undressing I take my backpack and put the firearm inside it.

In our case, St Joseph's is not a public hospital so they can make any rules they want. That being said, if they take you in for an emergency and you happen to have a pistol on you they can't kick you out. I would think that legally all they can do is secure the firearm somehow until you are able to make arrangements to have it removed.

That would work for some configurations but mine is a plain holster on my belt. Maybe a jacket pocket, if it's big enough to hide the weapon.

 

[just_a_car]

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heresolong wrote:

If I am going in for something that I know will involve undressing I take my backpack and put the firearm inside it.

+1. I'm fortunate to use a Serpa holster with paddle attachment that makes for easy on-off (but only if you know how and practice with it). I usually head to the restroom when I get to the doctor's office and move it to the backpack. Then, before I leave, I hit the restroom again to put it back on.